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How to prove that GOD exists from a scientific point of view?

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SelfSim

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Yes and the idea of matter outside the Mind is something to test is a belief.
No.
First and foremost, that idea is demonstrably a model created by human minds .. and in science, that model has been repeatedly demonstrated throughout its history, as being extremely useful one.
stevevw said:
Its circular logic that a measuring system that only includes matter as a ontological belief is going to prove matter.
Matter is definitely not just an ontological belief as far as science is concerned. Matter been operationally defined for yonks in science.
stevevw said:
Lets say that the supernatural is real. Then any test is only revealing part of reality because it left out something that is real when it comes to understanding reality.
Nice demonstration of circular logic there.

Logic cannot establish what's real, pure and simple.
Does science use logic to establish what's real? No, certainly not. It uses evidence to establish what's real.

What logic does, is derive the equivalences between a set of claims on truth, called axioms, postulates, and definitions, and a set of theorems that are regarded as equivalent to that original set. We can then say that the theorems inherit the truth value of the axioms, postulates, and definitions.
stevevw said:
You missing the point that making matter the only reality is a belief. Our beliefs and experience can also tell us something about reality.
Matter is any substance that has mass and takes up space by having volume. Seeing as both mass and volume are measurables (ie: testables), matter is part of science's Objective Reality.
Any notion that can't be tested is a belief, by definition.
stevevw said:
Besides the idea that reality is fundamentally matter has been undermined by QM.So any ontological belief that matter is fundamental is on shaky ground.
Straw man.
No physicist worth their salt would say 'matter is fundamental'.
 
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stevevw

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No. First and foremost, that idea is demonstrably a model created by human minds ..
That's the point, the idea its created in the Mind and not about whether it actually exists outside the Mind. Its like one of Minds own concepts is evaluating one of Minds own concepts.
and in science, that model has been repeatedly demonstrated throughout its history, as being extremely useful one.
Yes for confirming a concept made by the Mind but not what reality is outside the Mind. In fact the science method actually undermines matter outside the Mind with QM where at the fundamental level there are no particles. In fact an electron is 99.99999999% empty space.
Matter is definitely not just an ontological belief as far as science is concerned. Matter been operationally defined for yonks in science.
Nice demonstration of circular logic there.
Just because its been defined doesn't make it ontologically the case no matter how long it been around. I think that's the paradigm that some are saying needs to change scientific materialism for us to be able to move towards understanding reality.

Logic cannot establish what's real, pure and simple.
Does science use logic to establish what's real? No, certainly not. It uses evidence to establish what's real.
Not at the fundamental level as we cannot see it. Its based on theoretical physics and Math. But the evidence is based on the assumption that there is material matter and so anything that doesn't meet empirical evidence is ignored.

So how can anyone claim in science that using evidence substantiates the idea of 'matter' as a metaphysical reality when the idea of evidence based measures limits what can possibly be found (naturalism) thus not including other possibilities that could change the way we understand reality. At best the only thing science can claim is it describes what we perceive quantitatively about the world. But that's a limited view.

What logic does, is derive the equivalences between a set of claims on truth, called axioms, postulates, and definitions, and a set of theorems that are regarded as equivalent to that original set. We can then say that the theorems inherit the truth value of the axioms, postulates, and definitions.
Yes but all that is doing is supporting the assumption. If the assumption is wrong in the first place then what. Scientist assume material matter and then design a measuring system that can only measure matter. So of course its going to support its own assumptions. Its one of Minds concepts measuring one of Minds own concepts.
Matter is any substance that has mass and takes up space by having volume. Seeing as both mass and volume are measurables (ie: testables), matter is part of science's Objective Reality.
Yes its really good at measuring the world quantitatively. But that says nothing what what reality is. We know there's more to the world than quantities.

In fact what we actually perceive is not quantities. That comes later. We actually first see meaning in things through conscious experience and then we are aware of objects. That's how we Mind map the world. So perhaps its in those meanings is where the key to understanding reality is as its more a direct connection with what is happening.

Any notion that can't be tested is a belief, by definition.
Yes but your assuming beliefs don't tell us something about reality.
Straw man.
No physicist worth their salt would say 'matter is fundamental'.
So are you saying that scientists acknowledge that fundamental reality is immaterial.
 
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Hans Blaster

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In fact the science method actually undermines matter outside the Mind with QM where at the fundamental level there are no particles. In fact an electron is 99.99999999% empty space.

This "empty space" argument is just garbage. When examined like a particle, the electron is consistent with a point particle. In other words the volume of an electron is zero as best as we can tell.

If we take a block of aluminum and think only of the "empty space" between the electrons and the nuclei, so what. That doesn't make the aluminum block any less matter because at some level it contains a lot of space that isn't occupied by a specific particle. It is still matter. Just a simple, mindless block of aluminum.
 
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stevevw

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This "empty space" argument is just garbage. When examined like a particle, the electron is consistent with a point particle. In other words the volume of an electron is zero as best as we can tell.

If we take a block of aluminum and think only of the "empty space" between the electrons and the nuclei, so what. That doesn't make the aluminum block any less matter because at some level it contains a lot of space that isn't occupied by a specific particle. It is still matter. Just a simple, mindless block of aluminum.
Actually if we were to take every atom that exists in the universe it would add up to 1 sugar cube. That's an awful lot of empty space for a material matter schema.

In fact as far as I understand at the very bottom reality acts like waves of potentiality not particles. Strangely enough for some interpretations of QM it seems that the decisive factor in creating those particles or perhaps created particles is the observer.

What I think it comes down to is something other than mindless matter is looking at itself.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Actually if we were to take every atom that exists in the universe it would add up to 1 sugar cube. That's an awful lot of empty space for a material matter schema.

And where do you get this "fact"?

If all the fundamental particles are point-like and have no volume, the actual volume occupied by all the particles in the Universe is 0.

The primary "matter particles" (not the force carriers like photons) are all Fermions and quantum mechanically limited in how many can occupy the same volume in phase space. (And since quarks and electrons are spin-1/2 particles, that number per unit phase space is 2.)

In fact as far as I understand at the very bottom reality acts like waves of potentiality not particles. Strangely enough for some interpretations of QM it seems that the decisive factor in creating those particles or perhaps imagined particles is the observer.

So what? That does nothing to invalidate the notion of matter. Says nothing about the existence of god. (See OP title.) Says nothing about "mind".
 
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stevevw

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And where do you get this "fact"?

If all the fundamental particles are point-like and have no volume, the actual volume occupied by all the particles in the Universe is 0.

The primary "matter particles" (not the force carriers like photons) are all Fermions and quantum mechanically limited in how many can occupy the same volume in phase space. (And since quarks and electrons are spin-1/2 particles, that number per unit phase space is 2.)
But isn't everything really energy and not actual particles. What is energy anyway. Science only tells us how matter behaves but it cannot tell us its intrinsic nature.

So what? That does nothing to invalidate the notion of matter. Says nothing about the existence of god. (See OP title.) Says nothing about "mind".
I'm not saying this proves God. It does seem to suggest that 'matter' doesn't exist at the fundamental level and is created by the observer. Actually as far as I understand this does say something about Mind being fundamental.

David Bohm
[W]e have something that is mind-like already with the electron.

Heisenberg recommended staying in touch with reality as we experience it, which is to say holding a place for conceptions of mind and soul.
It's time for science to move on from materialism | Mark Vernon

Harry Stapp: The very structure of quantum mechanics implies a central and irreducible role for mind: an experiential aspect of nature distinct from that of the physical matter and energy described by the dynamical equations of physics.
ontology is always defined by epistemology which is primary. In simple terms, knowledge (a faculty of the human mind) is primary and matter secondary (i.e., Stapp argues for “the primacy of consciousness”).

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1904/1904.10528.pdf

Materialism—the view that nature is fundamentally constituted by matter outside and independent of mind—is a metaphysics, in that it makes statements about what nature essentially is. As such, it is also a theoretical inference: we cannot empirically observe matter outside and independent of mind, for we are forever locked in mind. All we can observe are the contents of perception, which are inherently mental. Even the output of measurement instruments is only accessible to us insofar as it is mentally perceived.

Why Materialism Is A Dead-End | Bernardo Kastrup

According to the physicist John Wheeler, quantum mechanics implies that our observations of reality influence its unfolding. We live in a "participatory universe," Wheeler proposed, in which mind is as fundamental as matter. Philosopher David Chalmers, Nagel's colleague at New York University, conjectures that "information," which emerges from certain physical configurations and processes and entails consciousness, is a fundamental component of reality, as much so as time, space, matter and energy.

Is Scientific Materialism "Almost Certainly False"?

Physics Is Pointing Inexorably to Mind

Physics Is Pointing Inexorably to Mind
 
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Hans Blaster

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But isn't everything really energy and not actual particles. What is energy anyway. Science only tells us how matter behaves but it cannot tell us its intrinsic nature.

Fields are fundamental, not energy. Particles are just quanta of the fields.

I'm not saying this proves God. It does seem to suggest that 'matter' doesn't exist at the fundamental level and is created by the observer. Actually as far as I understand this does say something about Mind being fundamental.

What on earth do you think "matter" is? I can't really tell given the way you dismiss the existence of matter repeatedly in your posts.

David Bohm
[W]e have something that is mind-like already with the electron.

Oh, good grief. Not this again.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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The problem is to identify the adaptive benefit of consciousness the relationship between the brain, behavior and consciousness has to be understood.
Nope. To identify the adaptive benefit of consciousness it is only necessary to show which behavioural features of consciousness are adaptive, and why. The relationship between the brain, behavior, and consciousness is important to discover, but that's the mechanism underlying the adaptive benefit.

This is tightly linked to the mind-body problem. To explain the evolution of consciousness we would need to solve the 'Hard problem'. So any claims about the evolution of consciousness at this stage are falsifiable.
If the claims are falsifiable, they can be falsified. That's good. The 'Hard problem' of consciousness is a technical problem, the final piece of the jigsaw. We don't need it for an effective theory of the evolution of consciousness. The phylogenetic evidence we have all points to that evolution; there is a growing literature on its adaptivity; as an evolutionarily recent trait, its developmental ontogeny will be reflected in evolutionarily recent changes in the brain.

The persistent problems are that, as a subjective and necessarily self-reported phenomenon, it is objectively ill-defined, and (consequently?) its observable characteristics are generally vague and unreliable.

As mentioned it involves our beliefs and assumptions about the world. We cannot separate ourselves from the equation and we cannot get outside our minds to know reality.
We use our minds to develop effective theories by testing hypotheses based on observation. If you're looking for reality, you must hope that our observations echo, or correlate with, reality - a plausible generalization.

Science takes the naturalistic and materialist view of the world/reality without scientific justification which makes it a metaphysical belief and therefore a philosophy of life.
Nope, it just produces explanatory models for observations.

But its the experience of pain itself that we need to address. That is real and it seems to show if anything that our Minds are not reducible to the brain mechanisms as we can override them to create phantom pain.
You're begging the question again by assuming dualism. The phantom pain problem is the opposite of what you suggest.

The issue is that amputation of a limb doesn't remove its representation from the brain's body map. The absence of neural input from the missing limb can make that part of the body map hypersensitive and susceptible to spontaneous activity (the same principle as the hallucinations seen in sensory deprivation) that is (mis)interpreted at a higher level as indicating real sensory input. So the inability to 'override' (suppress) those spurious activations is the problem.

We can experience things without actually being in a physical/objective state and we can change and create physical states with our mind. That our conscious/mind states exist prior to physical states and are the filter or gateway for everything that happens. Therefore are fundamental.
Evidence? If 'mind' is a label for a collection of physical processes in the brain (as I suggest it is) then experience is a name for how those processes change over time and our minds 'create physical states' because they are physical processes.

If you have evidence that conscious states exist 'prior' to physical states, I like to see it. There is a mountain of evidence that we don't become consciously aware of sensory input until it exceeds a certain strength threshold, prior to which our brains are often unconsciously aware of that input, and that may modify our behaviour. IOW, the evidence indicates that consciousness is the last to know what's going on; i.e. it is informed on a 'need-to-know' basis.

We don't see the world as objects first. We see the mental concept we place on them according to our experience of them. So we don't see the block of metal moving around the streets. We see a bus, what that represents to mental meaning. We map the world this way.
Again, you have this backwards. There are two visual pathways, one is an evolutionarily ancient pathway to the mid-brain, common to all vertebrates, that deals with objects by size, movement, and self-relative position (known as the 'blindsight' pathway). The other is a more recent pathway to the visual cortex, that deals with more sophisticated processing - object recognition, environment mapping & location, etc.

The first is unconscious, and the second involves consciousness via a hierarchy of processing from simple to increasingly sophisticated, together with predictive feedback from higher levels. So the perception of a bus develops progressively, as the predictions of our expectation model are corrected by our sensory input processing to rapidly and efficiently produce a coherent & consistent internal model.

We are consciously aware of this internal model fairly late in the process, but we do occasionally experience a belated adjustment or reinterpretation - as when a wounded bird flapping in the road turns out to be a plastic bag blowing in the wind...

Material naturalism is an attempt to quantify the world where as our conscious experience of the world is direct to as as it happens without introducing material mechanisms which are beyond Mind therefore more fundamental.
Nope.

We already have this evidence with quantum physics. We know at the fundamental level that the world we see is not actually how things work in the classical sense.
We only know that the quantum model is a more complete description - just as the Einsteinian model is a more complete description than the Newtonian model.

Any understanding about fundamental reality need to include the subject. Interpretations that include the observer participating in understanding reality seem to offer the best explanations.
All interpretations must involve the observer participating in understanding reality. You just seem not to like the ones that treat the observer as just another physical entity (quantum system) - yet that's a major lesson from quantum physics - treating the observer as classical and/or consciousness as having a special role (in wavefunction collapse) is not a successful approach.

The aspect from the subjects conscious experience of the objective world. The bus represents the material world, an object moving in time and space. But the subjects experience of these objects reveals a deeper level to the world where objects become concepts which have meaning and value as far as how the world works from a qualitative value.
We have a high-level internal model of the world whose objects/entities are 'nodules' of associative mappings of various strengths - these associations are what give concepts meaning, whether semantic or emotional.

This is as important if no more in understanding reality as the subjects Mind can actually change the physical world as well in that its not just about the objective outer world but the subjective inner world. Science can only tell us about the outer world. We still have to include the inner world if we want a complete understanding.
Science can tell us about the inner world by testing hypotheses; it's not easy, but we've made considerable progress since Freud.

The same can be said for the materialist view.
As far as science is concerned, observables are what count, and we look for explanations starting with what we already know. You can't explain the unexplained with the inexplicable.

But I think as far as subjective experience itself and not the material natural mechanisms a immaterial or supernatural explanation seems to fit as the Mind concepts for the metal objects cannot be reduced to brain mechanisms.
You keep asserting that without any supporting argument or evidence.

... if methodological naturalism isolates the supernatural from the natural then how can it claim that reality is fundamentally matter and there are no immaterial or supernatural influences.
Science is methodologically naturalist because no-one has devised an alternative that works as well. What is your suggestion?

How do you propose to test the hypothesis that there are immaterial or supernatural influences, i.e. how can you show they're real?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Study the evidence first.
Comment second.
Thats the scientific way.
Ive listed a few books to try
These are not written by quacks or wishful thinkers.
They are written by ED doctors, cardiac specialists, neurologists.
They performed longitudinal studies.
I notice you didn't mention Dr Parnia's AWARE studies, the largest well-controlled studies of NDEs during cardiac arrest in major hospitals around the world, which turned up... nothing significant. NDEs & OBEs at around the expected level, but nothing remarkable, and only one instance of veridical awareness when consciousness was not expected. The null hypothesis was not rejected. Meh.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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How does one study the Spark of Life? Can it even be defined? It's a mystery.
It's a redundant hypothesis. They took cells apart and reassembled them, even replaced their genetic code with custom-assembled minimal DNA sequences, and once all the essential genes were provided, off the cells went, metabolising and reproducing like the amazing molecular machines they are.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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No, even if there was nothing before, then the creation of the apple would increase the amount of energy. Remember, Einstein's e=mc^2 tells us that energy and mass are interchangeable. As long as something is created without using pre-existing materials, then there must be an increase in the total energy of the universe.
Strictly speaking, all you need is spacetime. Then you can have a universe of gravitating mass with a net energy of zero. The 'positive' energy of the mass is balanced by the 'negative' energy of the distortion of spacetime it produces, i.e. gravitational energy.
 
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Kylie

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Strictly speaking, all you need is spacetime. Then you can have a universe of gravitating mass with a net energy of zero. The 'positive' energy of the mass is balanced by the 'negative' energy of the distortion of spacetime it produces, i.e. gravitational energy.

In other words, the total energy of the universe is precisely ZERO, and thus it doesn't violate the conservation of energy?

Whodathunkit!
 
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AV1611VET

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In other words, the total energy of the universe is precisely ZERO, and thus it doesn't violate the conservation of energy?

Whodathunkit!
The total net energy.

There's a difference.
 
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dlamberth

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It's a redundant hypothesis. They took cells apart and reassembled them, even replaced their genetic code with custom-assembled minimal DNA sequences, and once all the essential genes were provided, off the cells went, metabolising and reproducing like the amazing molecular machines they are.
Isn't that the mechanical part? Is that the full picture of Life? I don't think so.
 
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stevevw

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Nope. To identify the adaptive benefit of consciousness it is only necessary to show which behavioural features of consciousness are adaptive, and why. The relationship between the brain, behavior, and consciousness is important to discover, but that's the mechanism underlying the adaptive benefit.
Isn't that just another correlation like neurons and consciousness. If we already know that the brain correlations are insufficient as they don't explain consciousness how is behavior different.

Behavior doesn't explain consciousness as its about a subjective experience. For every experience there is going to be different behavior. The conscious experience of say Dark side of the moon lol now that's a trip is not going to equate with the behavior of the picking of guitar strings, playing of synths and the behavior of band members or anyone sitting at home listening.
 
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stevevw

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Strictly speaking, all you need is spacetime. Then you can have a universe of gravitating mass with a net energy of zero. The 'positive' energy of the mass is balanced by the 'negative' energy of the distortion of spacetime it produces, i.e. gravitational energy.
I would have thought spacetime would be the most important and foundational ingredient as nothing else can happen. But then how do we get spacetime.
 
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stevevw

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If the claims are falsifiable, they can be falsified. That's good. The 'Hard problem' of consciousness is a technical problem, the final piece of the jigsaw. We don't need it for an effective theory of the evolution of consciousness.
Sorry meant to say consciousnesses is non falsifiable.

To develop a theory of consciousness you have to explain what its intrinsic nature is. All we know at the moment and I think all we can ever know is that consciousness is of a qualitative nature. So there's an explanatory gap between the quantitative measures and qualia.
The phylogenetic evidence we have all points to that evolution; there is a growing literature on its adaptivity; as an evolutionarily recent trait, its developmental ontogeny will be reflected in evolutionary recent changes in the brain.
I don't think that explains a theory of consciousness as its just more correlations. We don't even know what consciousness is. If a degree of consciousness is present in all living things and scales up with more complex beings then consciousness is an ongoing increasing awareness like we are waking up to ourselves and the universe.

Evolution wise I think it comes down to the central role of the subject as an agent who is able to direct their own evolution and I think Neo Darwinism has a problem with that. It takes a deterministic view and relegates all behavior to genes and natural selection whereas conscious experiences transcends that.

Like in QM the subject is central to how the world opens up and the materialist view has a problem with explaining that so it explains it away.

The persistent problems are that, as a subjective and necessarily self-reported phenomenon, it is objectively ill-defined, and (consequently?) its observable characteristics are generally vague and unreliable.
That's because consciousness cannot be reduced to objective measurements its a different stuff. The best I think the a quantitative theory can do is to say that consciousness is some mystical phenomena that emerges from physical processes. But that's almost the same as saying God did it except life itself has done the creating.
 
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Mountainmike

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Just because a phenomena does not do what you wish, does not discount it,

Parnias is nothing like the largest. But the numbers are instructive.

In parnias study of 2000 cardiac arrests only 140 survived, that yielded 100 interviews, 9 NDE of which two had experiences with potentially verifiable details NEITHER of which occurred in a place where there were targets, only one was well enough to investigate further and the details of what was observed during clinical death , did match what actually took place. So 100% on a minute sample.

The problem is Its incredibly rare - only two examples from thousands of cases give a problem for normal research methods.

It surprised me just how fatal cardiac arrests still are, despite our technology and few if any occur in places where “ targets” were placed the numbers are meaningless.

So the target experiment failed to yield ANY examples on which ANY conclusion can be drawn. Because Most arrests do not occur in convenient places.

The biggest is actually van lommels study

A longitudinal study, of 344 survivors. His bigger numbers allow him to draw many conclusions in which using control groups he demonstrates no normal bilological or pharmacological process can account for them . Indeed they are not correlated to any patient, beliefs or treatment characteristic. Except apparently young age.

He estimates 18% of recoverers have had an NDE.

So Read van pommels hbook. Or his articles in lancet.
And bellgs.
And the “ the self does not die” a compendium of veridical experience.

Of course death is not rare, and in world history terms , neither is recovery or NDE. But the proportion makes it nearly impossible to do controlled experiments.

The numerous veridical experiences demonstrate that consciousness is not just a function of the brain. Only ONE validated experience is enough to prove that.
The witnesses were in the main ED , cardiology and surgical staff. So the witnesses are indeed credible.

Many such staff dare not speak of such things for fear of being ridiculed.

On veridical experience. The patients cannot have known what they describe of consciousness were confined to the brain. Even Blind patients have seen for the first time!

Science always has had a problem dealing with the long tail, what is rare or cannot be repeated at all. That’s a limitation of science. It can only deal with repeatable things. It has no real idea what consciousness is.

Indeed van lommel - a cardiologist- researches neurology and why increasingly neurologists are accepting the mind is not just a function of the brain for many reasons, not just NDE eg neuroplasticity.

Van lommel suggests non locality of quantum effects as a place to start looking for answers.

I notice you didn't mention Dr Parnia's AWARE studies, the largest well-controlled studies of NDEs during cardiac arrest in major hospitals around the world, which turned up... nothing significant. NDEs & OBEs at around the expected level, but nothing remarkable, and only one instance of veridical awareness when consciousness was not expected. The null hypothesis was not rejected. Meh.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Reports of the experience of love? How is that going to work? Sure, you can get Person A to say, "Yes, I experienced the emotion I call love," and you can get Person B to say, "Yes, I experienced the emotion I call love," but there's no way to objectively verify that what A calls love is the same as what B calls love, since the love they feel is subjective, not objective, and short of reading their minds, there's no way to actually compare the two.
I don't entirely agree. Of course, there's no way to share any individual's experiences, but we can make the general assumption that as members of the same species there should be similarities in the kinds of experiences we have, and we can compare the reported characteristics of other's experiences and interpret them in our own terms.

So if A describes his predominant feeling of love as an intense urge to protect his partner from hurt but not so much an urge for intimacy, and B describes his love as an overwhelming urge for intimacy and for joint action to avoid hurt to both, we can have some idea of the differences between their experiences of love in terms of our own emotions and feelings.
 
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