What is "Ritual"? Why does it seem some Churches give more emphasis to it while others don't?

[JimR-OCDS]

No. It is one or the other.

It's a loaded question with your incorrect understanding on what a sacrament is.

The question on what a sacrament is has been answered a while ago. Go back
and reread the posts which explains it.

 

[disciple Clint]

I would just stick with the 7 of the Catholic Church which is the foremost authority on doctrine.

Is it ok for the church to make up a sacrament? Are they something from God or does the church have the ability to create God's Grace?

 

[disciple Clint]

Sure. Essentially Lutherans have a stricter definition of a Sacrament. A Sacrament is defined as God's word connected to a material element that communicates grace, instituted by Jesus Christ, for the whole Church. As such of the traditional seven which Rome accepts, we see only three can be properly called Sacraments: Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Absolution. Though whether Absolution is properly a Sacrament or just sacramental, has been sorta fuzzy. So you might find Lutherans count only two Sacraments, and others count three. It really depends on whether one considers the spoken words of the pastor a material element or not.

Marriage, Ordination, Unction, and Confirmation are not regarded as Sacraments because they don't meet the above mentioned criteria. Which doesn't mean that there isn't a sacramental character in these things, lots of things can be sacramental without being Sacraments. In a sense, there's no definitive number of things that can be sacramental in character. But for something to be a Sacrament we believe there needs to be a strong definition of what a Sacrament is, and so we rely on Scripture itself and what Jesus says and has given explicitly for His Church as means of grace--for the forgiveness of our sins. And we consider Augustine's language of the Sacraments as "visible word" (word connected to material element, and thus being "verbum visibilis") to be immensely helpful. As, fundamentally, what makes the Sacraments Sacraments is the word of God. The Gospel itself is here in Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Absolution, just as it is in the very preaching of the Gospel. Just as the word of God is clearly proclaimed in the Lord's Prayer, in the faithful prayers of the Church, in the faithful hymns the Church sings, in the sermons and homilies, and of course most sublimely Scripture which is the very divinely inspired and written word of God, the manger which holds Christ and lifts up Christ before our eyes in each and every sacred page. Which is why we always speak of Word and Sacrament, not as two things, but as a single thing.

There isn't remission of sins in Baptism because there's water, but because of the word of God, which in Baptism is connected with the water. Which is why St. Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21 that baptism now saves us, but not as the washing of dirt from our skin, but as the pledge of a new conscience before God by the resurrection of Jesus. Of course Baptism involves water, but it is because that water has been united to God's word that it is not just getting wet, it is forgiveness of our sins (Acts of the Apostles 2:38), being crucified, buried, and raised with Jesus Christ (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12-13), it is being clothed with Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:27), it is new birth from above (John 3:3-5, Titus 3:5), a washing of water with the word (Ephesians 5:26). Without the word of God, it wouldn't be the laver of regeneration, it would just be getting wet.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks and well done as usual, I always enjoy reading your posts they are well thought out and accurate. NOW the 64K question if some of the sacraments are not effectively communicating the grace that people think they are receiving are those people being fooled? For example if there is no grace received for reconciliation through a priest by virtue of it being a sacrament could they not just as well have simply confessed directly to Jesus as many protestants do, would not the effect be exactly the same?

 

[timothyu]

It is one or the other what?

Options I gave

 

[rturner76]

Is it ok for the church to make up a sacrament? Are they something from God or does the church have the ability to create God's Grace?

It's more like The Church administers God's grace

 

[disciple Clint]

It's more like The Church administers God's grace

Unfortunately it is also like earning God's grace, because the church declares that you must participate in a particular ritual in order to earn grace thus instead of it being a free gift from God it becomes grace through works.

 

[timothyu]

It's more like The Church administers God's grace

Isn't that like moguls claiming the world's resources that God gave us all, as their own to administer and benefit from?

 

[timothyu]

because the church declares that you must participate in a particular ritual in order to earn grace

Agree, we can't earn the grace because the grace already gave us the Kingdom which previously did not exist. What we do earn is a place in it or Jesus wouldn't have given us (much repeated throughout the scriptures) His two commandments.

 

[disciple Clint]

Agree, we can't earn the grace because the grace already gave us the Kingdom which previously did not exist. What we do earn is a place in it or Jesus wouldn't have given us (much repeated throughout the scriptures) His two commandments.

I do not pretend that I have or ever will have done anything to earn my salvation, it is all a gift from God, I do not deserve anything.

 

[Paidiske]

Isn't that like moguls claiming the world's resources that God gave us all, as their own to administer and benefit from?

No! We do not administer the sacraments of grace in order that we may benefit from doing so. Nor are they "our own." That is why, for example, (at least in my tradition) we never take payment for a baptism or a Eucharist. God's grace is freely given to all, and my job is to proclaim and administer it freely to all; not to hoard it and only dole it out at whim or for my benefit (or that of the institution).

Nor is that to say that God's grace is not given to people in other ways. We cannot claim a monopoly on grace. We can only say, "Here is God's grace, freely available to all; come, be welcome, and participate in it."

 

[timothyu]

I do not pretend that I have or ever will have done anything to earn my salvation, it is all a gift from God, I do not deserve anything.

Agree, nothing we do can bring about a new life complete with tree of life. Only God can do that. We can only regret losing it in the first place and hope for it's return. Well at least it returned as an option 2000 yrs ago as a gift from God so now we seek to be acceptable. Many however, like to have it both ways in the process, our way and God's while the say Lord, Lord

 

[timothyu]

God's grace is freely given to all, and my job is to proclaim and administer it freely to all; not to hoard it and only dole it out at whim or for my benefit (or that of the institution).

Good to hear. Unfortunately as you know, there are those of God and those of the Adversary within the system. Both sides have shown themselves over the centuries.

We cannot claim a monopoly on grace. We can only say, "Here is God's grace, freely available to all; come, be welcome, and participate in it."

Again I agree and am glad to hear the good guys think so.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Thanks and well done as usual, I always enjoy reading your posts they are well thought out and accurate. NOW the 64K question if some of the sacraments are not effectively communicating the grace that people think they are receiving are those people being fooled? For example if there is no grace received for reconciliation through a priest by virtue of it being a sacrament could they not just as well have simply confessed directly to Jesus as many protestants do, would not the effect be exactly the same?

I would first want to point out that confession is always to God, even when it is private confession. Also, private confession isn't a requirement in the Lutheran tradition. But it's available for anyone who desires it. We consider the corporate confession more than sufficient, which happens every time we come together for worship. The entire congregation--pastor included--confesses our sins to God, and the pastor speaks the words of Absolution. It is the word of God's forgiveness which is ours on Christ's account. It's simply the Gospel, simple and pure Gospel: God forgives us on Christ's account.

Here is an example of what we pray,

"Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen."

And the pastor says something along these lines,

"Upon this your confession, I, as a called and ordained servant of the Word, announce the grace of God to all of you, and in the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

It's just the Gospel: God has forgiven us. The pastor, as the servant of the Church, proclaims the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Options I gave

Grace is for all. God works through Word and Sacrament for that purpose. There's no barrier erected between us and God, it's just simple faith. The point of talking about the means of Grace at all is because God is all around us practically shouting at us that He loves us and forgives us.

If a church isn't being a church--isn't preaching the Gospel--then that is certainly a problem. It's a much bigger problem than any conversation on a religious discussion board can deal with. Because at that point the question becomes what are we even doing if we aren't being Christians? If we aren't reading the Scriptures, if we aren't believing the Gospel, if we aren't confessing Christ as Lord and Savior, if we are denying the Supper, if we are refusing to preach, if we are refusing to hear God--then what are we doing?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[rturner76]

Unfortunately it is also like earning God's grace, because the church declares that you must participate in a particular ritual in order to earn grace thus instead of it being a free gift from God it becomes grace through works.

It's always free. No charge for the body and blood of Christ.

 

[rturner76]

Isn't that like moguls claiming the world's resources that God gave us all, as their own to administer and benefit from?

I don't know what moguls are or how moguls relate to our sacraments.

 

[timothyu]

It's always free. No charge for the body and blood of Christ.

Yet we now need a middleman

 

[rturner76]

Yet we now need a middleman

Is Jesus a middleman?

 

[Paidiske]

Yet we now need a middleman

I would put it differently, and say that it is something we don't do on our own, but in community.

It's not that the clergy are "middlemen," but that we come together to do this as a body. A priest on his/her own can no more celebrate communion without a congregation, than the other way around. But when we come together it's the full and active participation of the whole congregation which makes the sacrament. (As I was taught it, it's not the words the priest says on their own which consecrate the elements, but it's the congregation's amen at the end of the prayer which completes the consecration).

 

[rturner76]

I would put it differently, and say that it is something we don't do on our own, but in community.

It's not that the clergy are "middlemen," but that we come together to do this as a body. A priest on his/her own can no more celebrate communion without a congregation, than the other way around. But when we come together it's the full and active participation of the whole congregation which makes the sacrament. (As I was taught it, it's not the words the priest says on their own which consecrate the elements, but it's the congregation's amen at the end of the prayer which completes the consecration).

I would say it like the sacrament needs an administrator