What is "Ritual"? Why does it seem some Churches give more emphasis to it while others don't?

[timothyu]

The Early Church celebrated the Mass often in homes or in other hiding places such as the Catacombs of Rome.

I'm taking the earlier pre-Gentile schmazzle

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I just said God tells us how to think, we just often refuse to listen preferring our own wisdom and governments. Would He prefer we understood that or that we just tried to clone Him into ourselves by gnawing off a chunk.

The Holy Spirit has guided the Church just as Jesus promised.

For you to tell God that it should be the way you think is pure arrogance.

God hates the arrogant, but loves the humble.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I'm taking the earlier pre-Gentile schmazzle

In Acts of the Apostles, the apostles and disciples celebrated the Eucharist: “And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of the bread and the prayers” (Acts 2:42). As previously mentioned, the “breaking of the bread” referred to the Eucharist, as Christ instituted it at the Last Supper.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Also;

The Eucharist: Origins in Jewish and Early Christian Practice - DocsLib

 

[timothyu]

For you to tell God that it should be the way you think is pure arrogance.

Thing is I'm saying what God said, His will before ours, loving all as self rather than for self... and live that way. That is the food of life and the keys to the kingdom. It was also the way of the Way, the first church

 

[timothyu]

As previously mentioned, the “breaking of the bread” referred to the Eucharist, as Christ instituted it at the Last Supper.

It is plainly saying previously that it was the breaking of fast after the Sabbath. Adapt it as you will. My argument is not against the ways of a Gentile church. Regardless of sect and interpretive ritual or ceremony created which is all fine and well and serves a purpose to each sect, we must not put ceremony or ritual before the reasons behind it all given to us in Jesus' two commandants.

 

[RileyG]

The Kingdom (Jesus' gospel) is the return of God to obliterate governments of man, both secular and religious.

Jesus was a religious Jew. He founded a Church that would exist in perpetuity.

 

[RileyG]

The Eucharist is our new passover. It IS our seder meal. It's the New Covenant that Jesus established. Through Baptism we are brought into that covenant relationship with God.

All of them, both the old and new covenants, were/ARE liturgical AKA ritual. The only worship ever mentioned in the bible is liturgical.

It's also not symbolic, since Jesus is the LITERAL Lamb of God who is eaten by the faithful. Just like how the Lamb was eaten in the Old Covenant/Passover meal. It's a mystery beyond our comprehension how Christ is present in the Eucharist.

 

[timothyu]

He founded a Church that would exist in perpetuity.

Right but no longer under the will of man.

 

[disciple Clint]

From the Lutheran POV, God's relationship with us is in Word and Sacrament. We know God in His grace, not our own works, and God's grace is here in Word and Sacrament. Because Jesus is here in Word and Sacrament, and we can only know God through His Son. The Holy Spirit makes this happen, because He is the Paraclete, our Comforter, the Spirit of truth who works faith in us and brings us to Jesus. That relationship with God which we have in Christ, is also then the basis, through the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, moved outward to others, with one another. In our fellowship together as members of Christ's Body, and in our walk as disciples in the world in relation to our neighbors. But it is always in Christ, the True Vine, as we are the branches, abiding in Him. He is the rock, the foundation, the true vine.

We can't find our relationship to God by looking inward to ourselves, where there is only sin, wretchedness, and transgression against God's Law; for "the heart is deceitful above all else and desperately sick", says the Prophet Jeremiah. In ourselves we do not seek God, it is only extra nos, outside of ourselves, in God's grace, in Jesus Christ, in the work and word of God. We trust that what is extra nos is being worked in us, that is God's promise in sanctification; but we cannot look to ourselves to find that work, nor can we trust in ourselves to see that work in action: We must always look outward, to Christ, to God's word and promises, to God's gifts, grace, and power in the Sacraments.

-CryptoLutheran

Good post as usual and right on as usual. I would question why the Lutherans and the Catholics do not agree on what the sacraments are. Catholics recognize 7 and Lutherans 3 if my memory is correct. Care to comment?

 

[disciple Clint]

Pretty much. They all bring us closer to God and are sacred.

They may but there are definate doubts about the function of some of them for example the Catholic church recognizes 7 of them and Lutherans only 3, other churches are between 0 and 7. In fact the sacrament of reconciliation did not become a sacrament until 1215, so can the Catholic church invent sacraments? If this is all from God it should be consistent should it not?

 

[disciple Clint]

Yes. Sacraments are part of the relationship.

OK then Catholics should be the most holy people on earth, correct?

 

[rturner76]

They may but there are definate doubts about the function of some of them for example the Catholic church recognizes 7 of them and Lutherans only 3, other churches are between 0 and 7. In fact the sacrament of reconciliation did not become a sacrament until 1215, so can the Catholic church invent sacraments? If this is all from God it should be consistent should it not?

I would just stick with the 7 of the Catholic Church which is the foremost authority on doctrine.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

OK then Catholics should be the most holy people on earth, correct?

We're still sinners.

A Jewish Rabbi once told a Catholic Priest, "we Jews invented guilt, but you Catholics
made and art of it."

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I would just stick with the 7 of the Catholic Church which is the foremost authority on doctrine.

The Irish only have 6 sacraments. They count Marriage and Penance as one.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Good post as usual and right on as usual. I would question why the Lutherans and the Catholics do not agree on what the sacraments are. Catholics recognize 7 and Lutherans 3 if my memory is correct. Care to comment?

Sure. Essentially Lutherans have a stricter definition of a Sacrament. A Sacrament is defined as God's word connected to a material element that communicates grace, instituted by Jesus Christ, for the whole Church. As such of the traditional seven which Rome accepts, we see only three can be properly called Sacraments: Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Absolution. Though whether Absolution is properly a Sacrament or just sacramental, has been sorta fuzzy. So you might find Lutherans count only two Sacraments, and others count three. It really depends on whether one considers the spoken words of the pastor a material element or not.

Marriage, Ordination, Unction, and Confirmation are not regarded as Sacraments because they don't meet the above mentioned criteria. Which doesn't mean that there isn't a sacramental character in these things, lots of things can be sacramental without being Sacraments. In a sense, there's no definitive number of things that can be sacramental in character. But for something to be a Sacrament we believe there needs to be a strong definition of what a Sacrament is, and so we rely on Scripture itself and what Jesus says and has given explicitly for His Church as means of grace--for the forgiveness of our sins. And we consider Augustine's language of the Sacraments as "visible word" (word connected to material element, and thus being "verbum visibilis") to be immensely helpful. As, fundamentally, what makes the Sacraments Sacraments is the word of God. The Gospel itself is here in Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Absolution, just as it is in the very preaching of the Gospel. Just as the word of God is clearly proclaimed in the Lord's Prayer, in the faithful prayers of the Church, in the faithful hymns the Church sings, in the sermons and homilies, and of course most sublimely Scripture which is the very divinely inspired and written word of God, the manger which holds Christ and lifts up Christ before our eyes in each and every sacred page. Which is why we always speak of Word and Sacrament, not as two things, but as a single thing.

There isn't remission of sins in Baptism because there's water, but because of the word of God, which in Baptism is connected with the water. Which is why St. Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21 that baptism now saves us, but not as the washing of dirt from our skin, but as the pledge of a new conscience before God by the resurrection of Jesus. Of course Baptism involves water, but it is because that water has been united to God's word that it is not just getting wet, it is forgiveness of our sins (Acts of the Apostles 2:38), being crucified, buried, and raised with Jesus Christ (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12-13), it is being clothed with Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:27), it is new birth from above (John 3:3-5, Titus 3:5), a washing of water with the word (Ephesians 5:26). Without the word of God, it wouldn't be the laver of regeneration, it would just be getting wet.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[timothyu]

A Sacrament is defined as God's word connected to a material element that communicates grace, instituted by Jesus Christ, for the whole Church.

So you are saying by ritual it is meant to imply for the peasantry and elite alike, that grace is in the sacrament, rather than in the actual gift from God for man to progress into a future life beyond death previously not available because of the fall; access to the tree of life restored not by ritual and sacrament but by the sacrifice and death of the Christ by His setting the example of what is expected of us, to put the will of the Father ahead of our own?

 

[ViaCrucis]

So you are saying by ritual it is meant to imply for the peasantry and elite alike, that grace is in the sacrament, rather than in the actual gift from God for man to progress into a future life beyond death previously not available because of the fall; access to the tree of life restored not by ritual and sacrament but by the sacrifice and death of the Christ by His setting the example of what is expected of us, to put the will of the Father ahead of our own?

Could you rephrase this question? I'm not sure what you're asking.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[timothyu]

Could you rephrase this question?

No. It is one or the other.

 

[ViaCrucis]

No. It is one or the other.

It is one or the other what?

-CryptoLutheran