How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

[fhansen]

And our actions do count.

I probably would have added that 'what we choose to do - and do - counts, while understanding that they count only while done under grace, by virtue of union with God'.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The act of Creation determined that everything would happen as God knew it would happen.

That does not mean we do not have free will, or that God controls our choices.

No because much of what has and will happen is not what God desires. God didn’t want to destroy man in the flood. He knew that He was going to but He didn’t like it. God didn’t want Adam or anyone else to sin but they did it anyway. God has been constantly disappointed by man. This is proof that He did not determine everything that would happen because man has constantly done things that He didn’t want to happen.

 

[Blaise N]

No that’s not what those verses say at all.

John 10:28-29 is referring to His sheep who hear and follow. It is not referring to those who heard and followed then turned away. The statement “no one is able to snatch them out of The Father’s hand” refers to a third party. It doesn’t say that they can’t turn away nor does it say they can’t be cast away by The Father.

Romans 8:38-39 says nothing can separate us from the love of God. It doesn’t say we can’t lose our salvation. John 3:16 says that God so loved the world. That’s why He sent Jesus to die for the sins of the whole world. It doesn’t say that He only loves those who repent and believe.

Ephesians 4:30 says do not grieve the Holy Spirit with whom you have been sealed unto the day of redemption. Paul continues that message in chapter 5 beginning with the word “Therefore”.

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Those who continue to grieve the Holy Spirit have no inheritance in the kingdom of God and are deserving of God’s wrath because they are once again sons of disobedience.

None of these verses or any other verses in the scriptures give any indication that a person can’t lose their salvation. The doctrine of eternal security wasn’t invented until the 16th century. It wasn’t taught in any Christian church for the first 1500 years of Christianity.

See the problem I have here is something that brings people like me with mental illness terrible anxiety.The thought of slipping and falling away brings terror to my soul.

 

[John Caldwell]

No because much of what has and will happen is not what God desires. God didn’t want to destroy man in the flood. He knew that He was going to but He didn’t like it. God didn’t want Adam or anyone else to sin but they did it anyway. God has been constantly disappointed by man. This is proof that He did not determine everything that would happen.

I was not talking about desire.

If God created man knowing man would fall then by creating men He ordained that the Fall would occur (not that it should occur but that in occurring it was within His overall plan).

There are only three ways around this -
1. God is not omniscient
2. God is not Creator
3. Redefine omniscience to exclude contigent events

 

[Clare73]

No offense sister but that kind of thinking can also lead to inaccurate interpretations.
A lot of people, and I’m not directing this towards anyone in particular, but
a lot of people end up twisting the scriptures

Which has nothing to do with "grounding in basic Christian teaching" from the NT.
"Twisting the Scriptures" is no different than excising some Scriptures,
neither of which qualifies for "grounding in basic Christian teaching (doctrine)."

A lot of people, and I’m not directing this towards anyone in particular, but a lot of people end up twisting the scriptures out of context in order to hold on to doctrines. It’s extremely important that we allow the scriptures to interpret our doctrines
not allow our doctrines to interpret the scriptures.

If you're new to Christianity, you don't come to the Scriptures with your own doctrines by which you interpret the Scriptures.

For example I once held to the doctrine of eternal security but when I came across verses like Galatians 5:4

"Fallen away from grace" in context there refers to "falling away from grace" and "into law" for justification/righteousness, not a falling out of salvation.

or 2 Timothy 2:12 they were confusing to me because
these verses indicate that saved Christians can lose their salvation.

Trusting God to keep him in the salvation, to which he was guaranteed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:14), does not mean he fears possibly losing that salvation. It means he believes and trusts God's guarantee to keep him saved.

No offense, brother, but actually it is you who has been persuaded by Scriptures being twisted out of context.

Instead of letting the scriptures teach exactly what they say I was forced to say to myself I don’t know what those are saying because they can’t be saying that a person can lose their salvation because that would contradict the doctrine of eternal security. To me at the time that was inconceivable so
I had to ignore those verses because they just couldn’t make sense to me.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps you needed a teacher in that case, whom God has appointed to the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 4:11) for that purpose?

Obviously we can’t say that someone who has been severed from Christ and fallen from grace was never saved. That’s ignoring the context. A person can’t be severed from Christ who has never been connected to Him. A person can’t fall from grace who never received it. We also can’t say that Paul & Timothy weren’t saved. Paul wrote over half of the New Testament and Timothy was his favorite disciple. When we come across scriptures like these that are contradictory to doctrines
we have to reevaluate our doctrines so that they coincide with the scriptures.

However, it seems you have reevaluated the Scriptures to coincide with your (incomplete understanding of the) doctrine of eternal security (i.e., John 6:39, John 10:28; Ephesians 1:14; 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5).

 

[atpollard]

No. I'm referring to understanding the atonement strictly through retributive justice (I believe the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement problematic).

Yeah ... Cristus Victor appeals to me because it just states WHAT IS and avoids speculating on WHY. God really is soft on revealing the WHY of His Business.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The act of Creation determined that everything would happen as God knew it would happen.

That does not mean we do not have free will, or that God controls our choices.

Bless you brother John. When I was a teenager I knew that when I had children of my own that I would not discipline them as harshly as my father disciplined me. I knew then that my children would be disobedient. Decades later when I finally decided to have children would you say that I determined them to disobey me by choosing to have them? That I predestined them to disobey me?

 

[atpollard]

Ahh so God caused the rape, God caused the murder, God caused the man to shoot 19 elementary kids, He predestined all that?

Respectfully, I come to Christianity from Atheism and experiential knowledge of those sorts of things:

"so God caused the rape"

• God KNEW about the rape (or He is not omniscient and is not God)
• God COULD HAVE stopped the rape (or He is not omnipotent and is not God)
• God was THERE when the rape occurred (or He is not omnipresent and is not God)

"God caused the murder"

• God KNEW about the murder (or He is not omniscient and is not God)
• God COULD HAVE stopped the murder (or He is not omnipotent and is not God)
• God was THERE when the murder occurred (or He is not omnipresent and is not God)

"God caused the man to shoot 19 elementary kids"

• God KNEW about the shooting (or He is not omniscient and is not God)
• God COULD HAVE stopped the shooting (or He is not omnipotent and is not God)
• God was THERE when the shooting occurred (or He is not omnipresent and is not God)

God was aware of the rape, murder and shooting, could have stopped them but did not, and was present at the scene allowing it to happen. Even "free will" cannot fully absolve God of any part in what happened ... unless god is a wooden idol carved by the hands of men.

"The buck stops here" seems apropos.

In my experience, people do not require God to MAKE them to evil, but God most certainly ALLOWS evil that He has the power to prevent.

 

[John Caldwell]

Bless you brother John. When I was a teenager I knew that when I had children of my own that I would not discipline them as harshly as my father disciplined me. I knew then that my children would be disobedient. Decades later when I finally decided to have children would you say that I determined them to disobey me by choosing to have them? That I predestined them to disobey me?

I'd say that you determined to have children you new would in some way (being children) disobey you.

And, I hope I'm not going to far here, I suspect that you desired that your children mature and be responsible so you disciplined them in some way without actually taking pleasure in that discipline.

 

[Clare73]

Well, according to the bible God hardens men’s hearts-and men harden their own hearts-as if they could do otherwise-as if choice was involved.

Since all men harden their own hearts, and that hardness is removed only by God's work of softening, all God has to do to "harden" a man's heart is to leave man to his own devices, and withhold his softening of them.

Anyway, so much for sola scriptura, the doctrine that allows man-and woman-to come up with all kinds of personal, novel opinions, based on an isolated passage or two, many of which were never intended to be a fully worked out and clarified theological treatise on a given matter.

And you know this, how?. . .when Scripture does fully work them out and clarify them on a given matter.

Don't mistake one's failure to grasp the teaching of Scripture, with God's failure to fully work out a given matter.

That would come later

Those Scriptures have been there from the beginning.

and the church has done so, to the extent possible.

Hopefully, from those Scriptures which have been there from the beginning.

Anyway, predestination is a secondary issue as long as a person understands that
the will of man is necessarily involved in his salvation regardless-because otherwise the gospel would be subverted.

Yes, "man willingly and freely, without external force or constraint, voluntarily chooses what he prefers"
(i.e., definition of "free will").

And the concept impacts no one directly anyway since none can know with 100% certainty that they’re a member of the elect, that they, personally, will persevere, etc.

That depends on whether you believe Scripture (e.g., John 6:39, John 10:28; Romans 8:16; Ephesians 1:14; 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) or not.

 

[John Caldwell]

Respectfully, I come to Christianity from Atheism and experiential knowledge of those sorts of things:

"so God caused the rape"

• God KNEW about the rape (or He is not omniscient and is not God)
• God COULD HAVE stopped the rape (or He is not omnipotent and is not God)
• God was THERE when the rape occurred (or He is not omnipresent and is not God)

"God caused the murder"

• God KNEW about the murder (or He is not omniscient and is not God)
• God COULD HAVE stopped the murder (or He is not omnipotent and is not God)
• God was THERE when the murder occurred (or He is not omnipresent and is not God)

"God caused the man to shoot 19 elementary kids"

• God KNEW about the shooting (or He is not omniscient and is not God)
• God COULD HAVE stopped the shooting (or He is not omnipotent and is not God)
• God was THERE when the shooting occurred (or He is not omnipresent and is not God)

God was aware of the rape, murder and shooting, could have stopped them but did not, and was present at the scene allowing it to happen. Even "free will" cannot fully absolve God of any part in what happened ... unless god is a wooden idol carved by the hands of men.

"The buck stops here" seems apropos.

In my experience, people do not require God to MAKE them to evil, but God most certainly ALLOWS evil that He has the power to prevent.

I think a great example of this can be seen with the Jews and Romans.

God knew Judas would betray Christ. God knew the Jewish leaders would demand His death. God knee the Romans would beat Him and crucify Him.

Yet God allowed this evil to occur. Not only that but this was God's predetermined plan.

Another example is the persecution of the Early Church (an evil) which ultimately strengthened Christianity.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I was not talking about desire.

If God created man knowing man would fall then by creating men He ordained that the Fall would occur (not that it should occur but that in occurring it was within His overall plan).

There are only three ways around this -
1. God is not omniscient
2. God is not Creator
3. Redefine omniscience to exclude contigent events

Ok but there a difference between allowing something to take place and predetermining or predestining it. Predestining it puts an active hand in establishing it. Predestining is not simply sitting by and watching it it’s actually taking part in making it come to be. Am I taking part in my son’s disobedience by having a son knowing that he will be disobedient at times?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Respectfully, I come to Christianity from Atheism and experiential knowledge of those sorts of things:

"so God caused the rape"

• God KNEW about the rape (or He is not omniscient and is not God)
• God COULD HAVE stopped the rape (or He is not omnipotent and is not God)
• God was THERE when the rape occurred (or He is not omnipresent and is not God)

"God caused the murder"

• God KNEW about the murder (or He is not omniscient and is not God)
• God COULD HAVE stopped the murder (or He is not omnipotent and is not God)
• God was THERE when the murder occurred (or He is not omnipresent and is not God)

"God caused the man to shoot 19 elementary kids"

• God KNEW about the shooting (or He is not omniscient and is not God)
• God COULD HAVE stopped the shooting (or He is not omnipotent and is not God)
• God was THERE when the shooting occurred (or He is not omnipresent and is not God)

God was aware of the rape, murder and shooting, could have stopped them but did not, and was present at the scene allowing it to happen. Even "free will" cannot fully absolve God of any part in what happened ... unless god is a wooden idol carved by the hands of men.

"The buck stops here" seems apropos.

In my experience, people do not require God to MAKE them to evil, but God most certainly ALLOWS evil that He has the power to prevent.

Allowing and taking part are two different things. Predestination is taking part in something, making it happen not watching someone else make it happen.

 

[atpollard]

See the problem I have here is something that brings people like me with mental illness terrible anxiety.The thought of slipping and falling away brings terror to my soul.

• [John 6:37-40] "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
  
• [Philippians 1:6] being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
• [Philippians 2:12-13] Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

The FATHER gives.
The SON will not cast out.
The SON will raise on the last day.
GOD who began a good work will complete it.
GOD is at work IN YOU both "to will" (desire) and "to do" (walk the walk).

God did it ... you only need to hold on to the trust IN HIM! (It was never about how good you are.)

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'd say that you determined to have children you new would in some way (being children) disobey you.

And, I hope I'm not going to far here, I suspect that you desired that your children mature and be responsible so you disciplined them in some way without actually taking pleasure in that discipline.

Yes I agree with all this but predestination is actually making something happen. I didn’t make my son disobey me by choosing to have a son.

 

[John Caldwell]

Ok but there a difference between allowing something to take place and predetermining or predestining it. Predestining it puts an active hand in establishing it. Predestining is not simply sitting by and watching it it’s actually taking part in making it come to be. Am I taking part in my son’s disobedience by having a son knowing that he will be disobedient at times?

No, it isn't.

The issue of responsibility belongs to the sinner, but the sinner was nonthelees predestined by the act of being created by a God who knew the outcome.

Could the sinner have chosen not to sin? Yes, of course. He sins of his own free will. But would he do something different from what God knew he would do? No.

 

[Clare73]

Agreed. And that increases when they are praying. Sometimes they sound positively Calvinistic, at recognizing that God causes all things, and that whatsoever comes to pass is up to him.

Don't we all pray like Calvinists, looking to God for everything?

 

[John Caldwell]

Yes I agree with all this but predestination is actually making something happen. I didn’t make my son disobey me by choosing to have a son.

Of course you didn't. Your son has free will.

God did not make Judas betray Him. Judas did that of his own volition. But at the same time God formed Judas, God took Judas as a Disciple, knowing what would occur.

Could Judas have refrained from the betrayal? Yes, that's why he was guilty. Would he? No, it was predestined and that was his role in God's plan. Did God make him betray Christ? No.

 

[atpollard]

Allowing and taking part are two different things. Predestination is taking part in something, making it happen not watching someone else make it happen.

What is your opinion of the police officer that hid while those Students were being shot ... is that the moral courage you expect from God?

No, if God is going to claim the attributes of God, there isn't that much of a difference. There is only our inability to understand "WHY?"

**********

There are two different forms of PREDESTINATION.

HYPER-CALVINISM teaches Active-Active Double Predestination where God both actively draws some to salvation and with equal force actively repels others from salvation. Very few believe this and NO major denomination embraces this. The Westminster Confession of Faith and the London Confession both actively reject this teaching.

CALVINISM teaches an Active-Passive Predestination where God actively draws the "elect" to salvation and God simply "passes over" the others to follow their fallen desires.

This Passive Predestination is illustrated in Romans 1:18-32. God PUSHES them into nothing, He merely frees them from His restraint to follow their "free will" to the destruction that they desire.

 

[Clare73]

I don’t think this is correct because the scriptures say
“He chose us according to His foreknowledge”

He chose us according to what he knew he would do regarding us--regeneration.

and “for those whom He foreknew He predestined”.
Predestined means to choose beforehand so he chose us beforehand according to His choosing us beforehand? That doesn’t make sense.

He chose us beforehand (predestined)
according to what he knew he would do for us (regeneration) beforehand (foreknowledge).

Predestined and foreknowledge are two different things. Your saying they are the same thing but they’re not. The Greek word that is used is prognosis. I’m sure we all know what gnosis means. It means knowledge. Prognosis means forecast or prediction.

Agreed. . .predestination is setting man's destiny, while
divine foreknowledge is knowing of his own future actions (i.e., regeneration).

The (pre)destiny is based on the actions of the foreknowledge.