How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

[Clare73]

I do not believe Calvinism to be self supporting either. It is based on interpreted Scripture. I believe the worldview applied affected the interpretation.
I was a Calvinist for years. It influenced my preaching and teaching. I know it is the context under which many understand Scripture. And it fits very well into our culture. I have many Calvinist friends...some professors, some pastors... and I trust their council. Most of the books I read are from Reformed or Calvinist writers (Tim Keller, John Piper, John MacArthur to name a few).
I say that to simply say I have no problem with Calvinism. I do think it is incorrect, but like everybody here I think a lot of views within Christianity are incorrect.

It is interesting that dispensationalism originated as Calvinistic doctrine. While I'm not a dispensationslist, I never quite understood why the strongest opposition against dispensationalists comes from the Reformed (from the group that came up with the doctrine).

John Darby was a Calvinist?

 

[John Caldwell]

John Darby was a Calvinist?

Yes. He was a strong defender of Calvinism and a part of the original Plymouth Brethern.

At the start Dispensationalism only existed within Calvinistic churches. It spread from there.

Now days Covenant theology seems to have surpassed Dispensationalism within Calvinism (I think Covenant theology works better with Calvinism as well).

 

[Clare73]

Yes. He was a strong defender of Calvinism and a part of the original Plymouth Brethern.

At the start Dispensationalism only existed within Calvinistic churches. It spread from there.

Now days Covenant theology seems to have surpassed Dispensationalism within Calvinism (I think Covenant theology works better with Calvinism as well).

Who knew!

So how did he make dispensationalism Calvinistic, Calvin never having mentioned it?

 

[John Caldwell]

Who knew!

So how did he make dispensationalism Calvinistic, Calvin never having mentioned it?

Calvinistic in the sence it originated within Calvinism (and for a time was the most popular view).

Beza was probably more Calvinistic than Calvin. The term "Calvinist" came from Luther to describe their stance on Communion, BTW, not to identify John Calvin but the doctrines his sect held.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Just so that I understand, is your God all powerful?
If so then why does he permit evil?

Unfortunately evil is the byproduct of free will which is essential to genuine love.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Thanks... so in your model does God "react" to evil to "bring about an even greater good" or does God see the evil and know his plan in response all from the beginning (i.e. omniscience)?

God knows the outcome so everything that happens is according to His plan. Nothing can happen that is not according to His plan. However, did God cause Adam to eat the forbidden fruit or did He allow him to eat it? Did God cause Judas to betray Jesus or did He allow him to betray Him?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Thanks again... so in regards to your original response to this thread, where your concern seemed to at least partly revolve around God's hand in evil, it would seem to me that you can have one of the following:

God #1

1. Predestines all, including evil, for the greatest glory of God.
2. All good, and evil, is the unfolding of God's plan.

God #2

1. Does not predestine evil.
2. However, can see all evil down the corridor of time, can prevent it but instead uses this evil to bring about the greatest glory of God.

If God's hand in evil is objectionable then how is God #2 any better? In both cases the child dying with leukaemia has been ordained by God and could have been prevented by God. In her time of prayer for her fading child, is the word from God to the mother to be "Okay, I know it's hard, and I wish it wasn't so that evil has afflicted your child, but instead of saving your child I have something better in mind, I've figured out how to turn this into a greater good. Your child still dies though."

Of course I could equally word God #1's response as cruelly, but my point here is rather to politely suggest that the God you've described in your responses may not be so let off the hook as you believe.

I don’t think those are the only two options brother Mike. There’s also the option that God allows man to act on his own free will and judges him accordingly. Of course those who repent and abide in Christ will have no stain of sin on their record due to the New Covenant.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If God's hand in evil is objectionable then how is God #2 any better? In both cases the child dying with leukaemia has been ordained by God and could have been prevented by God. In her time of prayer for her fading child, is the word from God to the mother to be "Okay, I know it's hard, and I wish it wasn't so that evil has afflicted your child, but instead of saving your child I have something better in mind, I've figured out how to turn this into a greater good. Your child still dies though."

Yes I believe God doesn’t view death as we do from a human perspective and because of His omniscience and omnipresence He knows that we will see the big picture in eternity and understand that His decisions are always better than our’s. For example it was thru much suffering and loneliness that I came to Christ. I believe that God had pushed me into a corner where the only way out was thru Him. Now when I look back on all the pain and suffering I went thru I understand and praise Him for it because He knew what was best for me. And just the thought that Him being such an all powerful and all mighty God that He took the time and effort to change someone as insignificant as me brings tears to me eyes. I’ll praise Him for all eternity.

 

[BNR32FAN]

ok listen,I really am bothered by you calling God unworthy of being followed and untrustworthy.I as a born again believer actually agree with Calvin’s acronym but don’t consider myself a Calvin,there’s some good rational to both sides of the theological spectrum.But Calvin’s acronym is actually scripturally supported,jacob Arminius actually was very bothered by Calvin’s acronym and made his own.
I don’t see the acronym as a to-do list for salvation,that’s dangerous to do.Remember works CANNOT save(Ephesians 2:8-10).Also one shouldn’t look at Calvin’s tulip like it’s equal to the Bible,because that too is dangerous.But allow me to show you this


T-Total depravity(John 6:44,Jeremiah 17:9,& 1 Corinthians 2:14,Romans 3:10-11,John 6:65,Ephesians 2:1)-Basically every human is a sinner and based on our Lords words,he says that unless God grants us a desire for him,nobody seeks him or wants to love him,they with darkened and blinded minds loathe in sins poisons and evil.God is almighty and Lovingly powerful to bring anyone to repentance and loving faith in him.
U-Unconditional election(Ephesians 1:4,Romans 8:29,2 Thessalonians 2:13,Ephesians 1:5,John 15:16,Ephesians 1:11)-Basically nobody deserves his election,so for him to choose people is incredibly loving,It actually also shows the love he has for every believer he wants in his family,it actually also shows the value of your soul he sees in you.
L-Limited atonement-This one basically is logical for any Christian,Christs death is fully paying for all sins of any believer,but how does his sacrifice pay for the sins of those who reject him?,if one person rejects him their sins are left Unforgiven and are in extreme danger and hopeless.But God gives them every chance to repent.

I-Irresistible Grace-This point is actually true to every Christian.When a believer sees how loving and kind God is they can’t resist him and love him unconditionally

P-Perseverance of the saints(John 10:28,Philippians 1:6)-Perhaps my favorite,especially for someone like me with scary OCD,the Lord says that the ones he loves and saves he will NEVER be lost or fall away.They are secured for eternity and will never perish,anyone who claims to be a Christian but leaves Jesus and forsakes him(what I mean by this is commits apostasy,becomes a Muslim or atheist) was NEVER a true believer(1 John 2:19) People who are classified as these false believers are people who show OUTWARD signs(This includes the Pharisees and Sadducee’s,since they only cared of the fame and power the positions of religious leadership brought,not loving the Lord and teaching and guiding the people in truth,This of course excludes Nicodemus and Paul since they believed in Jesus and weren’t like the other Pharisees) of faith and never take them to heart(Parable of the soils) they were in the class of the path soil or the Rocky soil.A true Christian may become a prodigal son but the LORD WILL bring them back.This is why our lord strongly speaks of examining yourself and making sure you are producing fruits of the spirit.

My dearest friend,I don’t see Calvin as a prophet or someone adding to the Bible,He simply made the explaining process easier to understand and for others to understand how the Lord works.I agree with things Luther taught as well as Calvin.

Please take into consideration the Old Testament verses that Paul is quoting in Romans 3:10-18.


“The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one. Do all the workers of wickedness not know, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the Lord? There they are in great dread, For God is with the righteous generation. You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted, But the Lord is his refuge. Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the Lord restores His captive people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭14‬:‭1‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul is speaking metaphorically as if I was to say “no one goes to church anymore” Paul was not speaking literally that no one is seeking God and none are righteous because the Bible specifically says that some are righteous. Noah Daniel, and Job are three that come to mind.

“These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“even though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only deliver themselves,” declares the Lord God.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭14‬:‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

I-Irresistible Grace-This point is actually true to every Christian.When a believer sees how loving and kind God is they can’t resist him and love him unconditionally

Correct me if I am mistaken but it’s my understanding that irresistible grace means that to those whom God has granted grace they cannot resist His offer and are destined to be saved no matter what. Which is contradictory to Romans 2:4-5 and a few other verses.

 

[BNR32FAN]

ok listen,I really am bothered by you calling God unworthy of being followed and untrustworthy.I as a born again believer actually agree with Calvin’s acronym but don’t consider myself a Calvin,there’s some good rational to both sides of the theological spectrum.But Calvin’s acronym is actually scripturally supported,jacob Arminius actually was very bothered by Calvin’s acronym and made his own.
I don’t see the acronym as a to-do list for salvation,that’s dangerous to do.Remember works CANNOT save(Ephesians 2:8-10).Also one shouldn’t look at Calvin’s tulip like it’s equal to the Bible,because that too is dangerous.But allow me to show you this


T-Total depravity(John 6:44,Jeremiah 17:9,& 1 Corinthians 2:14,Romans 3:10-11,John 6:65,Ephesians 2:1)-Basically every human is a sinner and based on our Lords words,he says that unless God grants us a desire for him,nobody seeks him or wants to love him,they with darkened and blinded minds loathe in sins poisons and evil.God is almighty and Lovingly powerful to bring anyone to repentance and loving faith in him.
U-Unconditional election(Ephesians 1:4,Romans 8:29,2 Thessalonians 2:13,Ephesians 1:5,John 15:16,Ephesians 1:11)-Basically nobody deserves his election,so for him to choose people is incredibly loving,It actually also shows the love he has for every believer he wants in his family,it actually also shows the value of your soul he sees in you.
L-Limited atonement-This one basically is logical for any Christian,Christs death is fully paying for all sins of any believer,but how does his sacrifice pay for the sins of those who reject him?,if one person rejects him their sins are left Unforgiven and are in extreme danger and hopeless.But God gives them every chance to repent.

I-Irresistible Grace-This point is actually true to every Christian.When a believer sees how loving and kind God is they can’t resist him and love him unconditionally

P-Perseverance of the saints(John 10:28,Philippians 1:6)-Perhaps my favorite,especially for someone like me with scary OCD,the Lord says that the ones he loves and saves he will NEVER be lost or fall away.They are secured for eternity and will never perish,anyone who claims to be a Christian but leaves Jesus and forsakes him(what I mean by this is commits apostasy,becomes a Muslim or atheist) was NEVER a true believer(1 John 2:19) People who are classified as these false believers are people who show OUTWARD signs(This includes the Pharisees and Sadducee’s,since they only cared of the fame and power the positions of religious leadership brought,not loving the Lord and teaching and guiding the people in truth,This of course excludes Nicodemus and Paul since they believed in Jesus and weren’t like the other Pharisees) of faith and never take them to heart(Parable of the soils) they were in the class of the path soil or the Rocky soil.A true Christian may become a prodigal son but the LORD WILL bring them back.This is why our lord strongly speaks of examining yourself and making sure you are producing fruits of the spirit.

My dearest friend,I don’t see Calvin as a prophet or someone adding to the Bible,He simply made the explaining process easier to understand and for others to understand how the Lord works.I agree with things Luther taught as well as Calvin.

John 10:28 says no can can snatch them from My hand. It doesn’t say they can’t be cast away or they can’t walk away or fall away. John 15:2, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, and Galatians 5:4 make this very clear. If I’m holding a rabbit in my hand and I say no one can snatch this rabbit from my hand that doesn’t mean that I can’t throw the rabbit away or that the rabbit can’t jump from my hand. The word “snatch” only refers to a third party’s attempt to take the rabbit from my hand it does not refer to me not being able to throw the rabbit or the rabbit not being able to jump from my hand.

 

[Clare73]

John 10:28 says no can can snatch them from My hand.
It doesn’t say they can’t be cast away or they can’t walk away or fall away.

That is you excluding them from "no one," not Jesus.

John 15:2, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, and Galatians 5:4 make this very clear. If I’m holding a rabbit in my hand and I say no one can snatch this rabbit from my hand that doesn’t mean that I can’t throw the rabbit away or that the rabbit can’t jump from my hand. The word “snatch” only refers to a third party’s attempt to take the rabbit from my hand it does not refer to me not being able to throw the rabbit or the rabbit not being able to jump from my hand.

That is you trying to bring Jesus down to your size, not Jesus.

He neither lets anyone go nor turns anyone loose whom he has received, nor does he throw them back.
The Father has given them to him, and he shall lose none of them (John 6:39).
He keeps them (Philippians 2:13) by his power and that of the Holy Spirit, guaranteeing their inheritance (Ephesians 1:14).

 

[BNR32FAN]

ok listen,I really am bothered by you calling God unworthy of being followed and untrustworthy.I as a born again believer actually agree with Calvin’s acronym but don’t consider myself a Calvin,there’s some good rational to both sides of the theological spectrum.But Calvin’s acronym is actually scripturally supported,jacob Arminius actually was very bothered by Calvin’s acronym and made his own.
I don’t see the acronym as a to-do list for salvation,that’s dangerous to do.Remember works CANNOT save(Ephesians 2:8-10).Also one shouldn’t look at Calvin’s tulip like it’s equal to the Bible,because that too is dangerous.But allow me to show you this


T-Total depravity(John 6:44,Jeremiah 17:9,& 1 Corinthians 2:14,Romans 3:10-11,John 6:65,Ephesians 2:1)-Basically every human is a sinner and based on our Lords words,he says that unless God grants us a desire for him,nobody seeks him or wants to love him,they with darkened and blinded minds loathe in sins poisons and evil.God is almighty and Lovingly powerful to bring anyone to repentance and loving faith in him.
U-Unconditional election(Ephesians 1:4,Romans 8:29,2 Thessalonians 2:13,Ephesians 1:5,John 15:16,Ephesians 1:11)-Basically nobody deserves his election,so for him to choose people is incredibly loving,It actually also shows the love he has for every believer he wants in his family,it actually also shows the value of your soul he sees in you.
L-Limited atonement-This one basically is logical for any Christian,Christs death is fully paying for all sins of any believer,but how does his sacrifice pay for the sins of those who reject him?,if one person rejects him their sins are left Unforgiven and are in extreme danger and hopeless.But God gives them every chance to repent.

I-Irresistible Grace-This point is actually true to every Christian.When a believer sees how loving and kind God is they can’t resist him and love him unconditionally

P-Perseverance of the saints(John 10:28,Philippians 1:6)-Perhaps my favorite,especially for someone like me with scary OCD,the Lord says that the ones he loves and saves he will NEVER be lost or fall away.They are secured for eternity and will never perish,anyone who claims to be a Christian but leaves Jesus and forsakes him(what I mean by this is commits apostasy,becomes a Muslim or atheist) was NEVER a true believer(1 John 2:19) People who are classified as these false believers are people who show OUTWARD signs(This includes the Pharisees and Sadducee’s,since they only cared of the fame and power the positions of religious leadership brought,not loving the Lord and teaching and guiding the people in truth,This of course excludes Nicodemus and Paul since they believed in Jesus and weren’t like the other Pharisees) of faith and never take them to heart(Parable of the soils) they were in the class of the path soil or the Rocky soil.A true Christian may become a prodigal son but the LORD WILL bring them back.This is why our lord strongly speaks of examining yourself and making sure you are producing fruits of the spirit.

My dearest friend,I don’t see Calvin as a prophet or someone adding to the Bible,He simply made the explaining process easier to understand and for others to understand how the Lord works.I agree with things Luther taught as well as Calvin.

In Philippians 1:6 when Paul says “I am confident” that’s not a definite statement it’s an assessment. He believes or thinks they will be perfected and in verse 7 he explains why he is confident that they will be perfected.

“For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭1‬:‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Their actions are evidence of their faith indicating that they are currently partakers of grace. Galatians 5:4 shows that not all people remain partakers of grace. So Paul is saying from his estimation that he believes they will be perfected not actually making a definitive statement that they absolutely will be perfected.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is you excluding them from "no one," not Jesus.

That is you trying to bring Jesus down to your size, not him.

He does not let anyone go or turn anyone loose whom he has received, nor does he throw them back.
He keeps them (Philippians 2:13) by his power and that of the Holy Spirit, guaranteeing their inheritance (Ephesians 1:14).

Ok let’s not start off on the wrong foot here I’m trying to just have an honest polite discussion about the scriptures. Your making accusations against me instead of explaining how the scriptures I quoted can be interpreted in such a way as to refute my position. So let’s try to refrain from personal remarks and focus more on presenting biblical facts to support our position that way we can have a more pleasant and productive discussion.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is you excluding them from "no one," not Jesus.

That is you trying to bring Jesus down to your size, not Jesus.

He neither lets anyone go nor turns anyone loose whom he has received, nor does he throw them back.
The Father has given them to him, and he shall lose none of them (John 6:39).
He keeps them (Philippians 2:13) by his power and that of the Holy Spirit, guaranteeing their inheritance (Ephesians 1:14).

Yes the Holy Spirit is a pledge to our inheritance provided that we uphold our part of the covenant which is to abide in Christ and not turn away to unbelief. John 15:2 says that “The Father “cuts off” or “takes away” those IN CHRIST who do not bear fruit. This goes along seamlessly with Luke 13:6-9 where the trees that Christ is giving special attention to in an effort to save them do not bear fruit and are chopped down. Notice that despite Jesus’ efforts to save the tree the outcome is still uncertain whether or not it will bear fruit or if it will be chopped down. John 15:6 specifically says anyone who does not remain in Christ is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Not to mention that Jesus specifically stated that many will fall away from Him in Matthew 24:9-13 but those that endure to the end will be saved, as opposed to those who do not endure to the end.

““Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24‬:‭9‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[atpollard]

How do you have single predestination (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11)
without double predestination?
Is to include only some not necessarily to exclude all others?

In Romans 1:18-32, does God actively predestine those described in the text to damnation by pushing away men that would otherwise wish to follow Him (if only God would give them a chance like He did when He called the Apostles to Jesus)? No, that is not what we see happening in those verses. Over and over (Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28) we see God releasing His restraint on sinful men and allowing men the freedom to follow their natural desires further down the rabbit hole of perversion and reprobation.

From elsewhere (Mark 10:18, John 3:19-20, Romans 3:10-12), we know that EVERYONE is like those people in Romans 1. So a God that did nothing except offer salvation to everyone would be no more successful than a God that offered the LAW (through Moses) to a chosen nation or who gave a "very good" Adam and Eve only one command to follow. If ANYONE is to be saved, then it is GOD who must do the saving (Matthew 16:16-17, John 6:43-45, John 15:16, Ephesians 2:4-5).

 

[Brother-Mike]

I don’t think those are the only two options brother Mike. There’s also the option that God allows man to act on his own free will and judges him accordingly. Of course those who repent and abide in Christ will have no stain of sin on their record due to the New Covenant.

Fair enough, and I do not fundamentally disagree with what you've worded here (well, okay, maybe "free will" is open to debate). If you were to ask me "As a Calvinist do you believe man can choose to walk in The Way or not?" I would answer "Yes, on a creaturely level God has granted us the deeply felt sense that we can make choices. Deep enough that along with the freedom comes the responsibility of our choices."

But I'm not going to let you off the hook so easily Kindly tell me, does the God you've described above:

1. See all of history, including all of your choices, from the beginning?
2. Have the power to intervene and steer your hand from one choice to another?

 

[Brother-Mike]

God knows the outcome so everything that happens is according to His plan. Nothing can happen that is not according to His plan. However, did God cause Adam to eat the forbidden fruit or did He allow him to eat it? Did God cause Judas to betray Jesus or did He allow him to betray Him?

Aha! You've (correctly I believe) arrived at what I think is the nucleogenesis of theodicy: did Eve freely eat the fruit? John Piper's answer was something like "As a Christian, and given a plain, honest reading of scripture, you need to have a category in your mind that allows for everything to be under God's Plan AND SIMULTANEOUSLY creaturely freedom being granted to and held responsible against mankind".

Zoom out to where you can see the entire meta-narrative of God's Plan - Creation, The Fall, a chosen people and their struggles against redemption, a New Plan of Christ's unfailing redemption, final judgement and unification with God in the New Earth. Each part of this story was essential. The Lamb's incarnation and sacrifice was essential. We were meant all along to go through all of this, to be brothers and sisters to Jesus in the New Earth having suffered, struggled, loved, lost, all to the increased glory of our coming union.

You asked about Judas. I'll let Peter and John answer, from Acts 4:23-28:

23 When they were released, they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit,

“ ‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed’—

27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

I don't know how to make sense of this without Piper's two-categories. Do you?

 

[Clare73]

Yes the Holy Spirit is a pledge to our inheritance

A pledge of our inheritance, a deposit guaranteeing the full payment.

It is God who works in the elect both to will and to do (Philippians 2:13), guaranteeing they do not fail.

provided that we uphold our part of the covenant which is to abide in Christ and not turn away to unbelief. John 15:2 says that “The Father “cuts off” or “takes away” those IN CHRIST who do not bear fruit. This goes along seamlessly with Luke 13:6-9 where the trees that Christ is giving special attention to in an effort to save them do not bear fruit and are chopped down. Notice that despite Jesus’ efforts to save the tree the outcome is still uncertain whether or not it will bear fruit or if it will be chopped down. John 15:6 specifically says anyone who does not remain in Christ is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Not to mention that Jesus specifically stated that many will fall away from Him in Matthew 24:9-13 but those that endure to the end will be saved, as opposed to those who do not endure to the end.

There are both wheat and tares in the visible church.
Only the tares are chopped down and cast into the fire to be burned.

The wheat are the elect whom God himself keeps, even if it requires disciplining, but they never perish.
Wheat does not become tares.

““Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24‬:‭9‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[John Caldwell]

A pledge of our inheritance, a deposit guaranteeing the full payment.

I'm tracking...sort of.

What do you mean by the Holy Spirit being a deposit guaranting the "full payment"?