Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

[Bob S]

Isaiah Chapters 65 and 66 do not seem to relate to what Jesus told us in the New Testament. SB claims that since he wrote we would be observing the Sabbath in heaven we should be doing it now. He also mentioned new moons, but SB omits that fact. Are we to believe all the things of our mortal lives will be forgotten when verse 24 says “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” The picture Is65 portrays is that man will live to be over 100 or maybe as long as trees and if you die before 100 it will be because of being accursed

Read Is 65:17-25 and then tell me those verses represent God's Kingdom prepared for us. If I were SB I certainly would not use Is66:23 as the criteria for Sabbath observance today.

 

[Doran]

How will true worshippers be worshipping the Lord in Heaven?

Isaiah 66:23 And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

Jesus said not to worship in vain by keeping mans-traditions over the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten Commandments. Matthew 15:3-9. The Sabbath is a commandment of God and part of this unit of Ten Exodus 34:28 personally written by God. Exodus 31:18 that we cannot subtract or add to. Deuteronomy 4:2

The saints keep the commandments of God. Revelation 14:12 I am pretty sure the saints are the saved and not the lost.

How does the Lord tell us to keep His Sabbath now?

Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,

The Sabbath is a full day to only focus on the Lord, on His holy day.

How did Jesus keep the Sabbath commandment?

Maybe this translation will be easier for you to understand?

Luke 4:16 He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. As usual, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath day and stood up to read. What He read was God's Word.

The scriptures are filled with how to keep the Sabbath, where God esteemed the Sabbath day above all others in very clear and easy to understand Words that He personally wrote, that is a commandment, which means it's not really up for debate or should be.

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God

Your argument is not really with me and if people spent half the time obeying God than trying to disprove His very Words, but we have free will and this gets sorted out soon enough.

Take care and God bless you in seeking His Word.

Signing out for now.

PS I never said we should never miss church service; you did not quote me saying this either because its not something I ever said. If one is sick should we be at church getting others sick? Of course not, but we can still honor God on His holy Sabbath day by worshipping Him a full day at home. Does God want us to be of one body and fellowship with others? Yes, which is why Jesus was usually at the Temple on the Sabbath reading God's Word as our example to follow.

Not one passage you quoted proves that that the NEW COVENANT people of God are required to observe the 7th day.

 

[Doran]

Now...I have a question for any and all sabbatarians. So, please, step up to the plate and take your swing. I would like your interpretation of the following portion of the 95th Psalm.

Ps 95:7-11
Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah,
as you did that day at Massah in the desert,
9 where your fathers tested and tried me,
though they had seen what I did.
10 For forty years I was angry with that generation;
I said, "They are a people whose hearts go astray,
and they have not known my ways."
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
"They shall never enter my rest."
NIV

What "rest" is being spoken of here in this little history lesson: Was it the 7th day sabbath rest or some other rest?

 

[Doran]

Isaiah Chapters 65 and 66 do not seem to relate to what Jesus told us in the New Testament. SB claims that since he wrote we would be observing the Sabbath in heaven we should be doing it now. He also mentioned new moons, but SB omits that fact. Are we to believe all the things of our mortal lives will be forgotten when verse 24 says “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” The picture Is65 portrays is that man will live to be over 100 or maybe as long as trees and if you die before 100 it will be because of being accursed

Read Is 65:17-25 and then tell me those verses represent God's Kingdom prepared for us. If I were SB I certainly would not use Is66:23 as the criteria for Sabbath observance today.

The OT is all he has. For there is no imperative command in the NT that requires any New Covenant saint to observe any day.

I wonder if SB believes that sabbath-keeping is a requirement for salvation?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Now...I have a question for any and all sabbatarians. So, please, step up to the plate and take your swing. I would like your interpretation of the following portion of the 95th Psalm.

Ps 95:7-11
Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah,
as you did that day at Massah in the desert,
9 where your fathers tested and tried me,
though they had seen what I did.
10 For forty years I was angry with that generation;
I said, "They are a people whose hearts go astray,
and they have not known my ways."
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
"They shall never enter my rest."
NIV

What "rest" is being spoken of here in this little history lesson: Was it the 7th day sabbath rest or some other rest?

In Hebrews 4:8, another day" is the "day" of David, as Hebrews 4:7 makes evident. The fact that in the days of David and Solomon, Israel was in full possession of the land of Canaan, makes it clear that the "rest" here referred to was not the literal occupation of Canaan, but the glorious role God intended for Israel. The generation of Israel that left Egypt "entered not in "to the literal Land of Promise" Hebrews 4:6 and those who did enter into literal Canaan never, as a nation, entered into the spiritual "rest" God purposed for them.

We enter into God's "rest" when we "consider" Jesus Heb. 3:1 and listen to His voice Hebrew 3:7, 15; 4:7, when we exercise faith in Him Hebrews 4:2-3, when we cease from our own efforts to earn salvation Hebrews 4:10 when we "hold fast our profession and when we draw near to the throne of grace. Those who would enter into this experience must beware of "an evil heart of unbelief" Hebrews 3:12, of hardening their hearts Hebrews 3:8, 15 Hebrews 4:7. They must strive to enter into God's "rest" (Hebrews 4:11).

Those who enter into God's "rest" will "hold fast" their "profession" Hebrews 4:14. They will "come boldly unto the throne of grace" to "obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need" Hebrews 4: 16. The keeping of the seventh-day Sabbath is a memorial to this rest and ceasing from our own efforts, which is why Sabbath keeping remains for the people of God. Hebrews 4:9 and we cease from our works the same day God ceased from His, on the seventh day. Hebrews 4:4, Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11

God writes His laws in the hearts and minds in the New Covenant believer Hebrews 8:10 which is why the Sabbath remains for the people of God. Hebrews 4:9

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The OT is all he has. For there is no imperative command in the NT that requires any New Covenant saint to observe any day.

I wonder if SB believes that sabbath-keeping is a requirement for salvation?

We are saved by grace through faith. Ephesians 2:8 Obeying God's law is an outward expression that we have inwardly been transformed by the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38, John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32 If we are still living a life of sin -breaking the law- 1 John 3:4 than we are living by the flesh and not by the Spirit. Romans 8:1-8. Our faith upholds God's law Romans 3:31 because we trust what He asks of us is for our own good. When we start depending on our own works, what we feel is right or wrong instead of trusting God- what God deemes righteous, we are living by our own works which is not saving or sanctifying. John 17:17, Ezekiel 20:12

 

[Cornelius8L]

How will true worshippers be worshipping the Lord in Heaven?

Isaiah 66:23 And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

Jesus said not to worship in vain by keeping mans-traditions over the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten Commandments. Matthew 15:3-9. The Sabbath is a commandment of God and part of this unit of Ten Exodus 34:28 personally written by God. Exodus 31:18 that we cannot subtract or add to. Deuteronomy 4:2

The saints keep the commandments of God. Revelation 14:12 I am pretty sure the saints are the saved and not the lost.

I’m not surprised you quoted Isaiah 66:23, but I believe you agree we can “come to worship before God” in spirit and in truth (John 4:21-24). Jesus clarifies further that we do not need to go to Jerusalem (where the actual/physical temple stood) even before He was crucified.

How does the Lord tell us to keep His Sabbath now?

Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,

The Sabbath is a full day to only focus on the Lord, on His holy day.

“…he who was a free man when he was called is Christ’s slave. (1 Corinthians 7:22).” – Can Christ’s slave do his own ways, finding his own pleasure and speak his own words in any given full day? He cannot. Also, Isaiah 58:13 never says, ‘go to the temple.’

How did Jesus keep the Sabbath commandment?

Maybe this translation will be easier for you to understand?

Luke 4:16 He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. As usual, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath day and stood up to read. What He read was God's Word.

This translation doesn’t help to explain it “as per teaching.”

The scriptures are filled with how to keep the Sabbath, where God esteemed the Sabbath day above all others in very clear and easy to understand Words that He personally wrote, that is a commandment, which means it's not really up for debate or should be.

The more accurate statement should be, "scriptures are filled with how to keep the Sabbath the OT way."

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God

An important point. A priest cannot obey this commandment even in OT because he needs to work every day. We are NT priests. We made spiritual sacrifices every day.

Your argument is not really with me and if people spent half the time obeying God than trying to disprove His very Words, but we have free will and this gets sorted out soon enough.

If we spend time obeying God, we will honor Him every day.

PS I never said we should never miss church service; you did not quote me saying this either because its not something I ever said. If one is sick should we be at church getting others sick? Of course not, but we can still honor God on His holy Sabbath day by worshipping Him a full day at home. Does God want us to be of one body and fellowship with others? Yes, which is why Jesus was usually at the Temple on the Sabbath reading God's Word as our example to follow.

If that is what you meant, you shouldn’t rejustify Luke 4:16 in the same post as if it is the way because it is not. By Paul’s definition, one body does not need to be a physical gathering (Colossians 2:5). Moreover, we are not one body by physical gathering but by obeying His will even remotely. Otherwise, how can we be one body one day but not other days? Jesus and the Apostles went to the temple to teach because the people were lost even though they gathered. They are not one body because the one in Moses’ seat wanted to kill them (Matthew 23:2).

Take care and God bless you in seeking His Word.

Signing out for now.

Okay, have a great day ahead. Take care and God bless We pray for God’s wisdom. If Paul, the persecutor can be converted by Jesus, we should not make a quick judgment and stop discussing the truth.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I’m not surprised you quoted Isaiah 66:23, but I believe you agree we can “come to worship before God” in spirit and in truth (John 4:21-24). Jesus further clarifies that we do not need to go to Jerusalem (where the actual/physical temple stood) even before He was crucified.


“…he who was a free man when he was called is Christ’s slave. (1 Corinthians 7:22).” – Can Christ’s slave do his own ways, finding his own pleasure and speak his own words in any given full day? He cannot. Also, Isaiah 58:13 never says, ‘go to the temple.’


This translation doesn’t help to explain it “as per teaching.”


The more accurate statement should be, "scriptures are filled with how to keep the Sabbath the OT way."


An important point. A priest cannot obey this commandment even in OT because he needs to work every day. We are NT priests. We made spiritual sacrifices every day.


If we spend time obeying God, we will honor Him every day.


If that is what you meant, you shouldn’t rejustify Luke 4:16 in the same post as if it is the way because it is not. Paul said one body does not need to be a physical gathering (Colossians 2:5). Moreover, we are not one body by physical gathering but by obeying His will even remotely. Otherwise, how can we be one body one day but not other days? Jesus and the Apostles went to the temple to teach because the people were lost even though they gathered. They are not one body because the one in Moses’ seat wanted to kill them.


Okay, have a great day ahead Take care and God bless. We pray for God’s wisdom. If Paul, the persecutor can be converted by Jesus, we should not make a quick judgment and stop discussing the truth.

Not really responsive to my post so I will only touch on the first point.

Scripture is not referring to the earthy Temple in Isaiah 66:22-23 This is God's heavenly Temple where the saints will be worshipping the Lord from one Sabbath to another Isaiah 66:22-23. God's will for us in heaven is not different than it is for us on this earth- hence why He gave us the Sabbath commandment. The ark of the covenant which holds God's finger-written commandments is still in God's heavenly Temple Revelation 11:19 under His mercy seat because it is what we will be judged by. James 2:10-12. The saints keep these commandments and the faith in Jesus. Revelation 14:12

Revelation 21:2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

I pray we will all be ready when Jesus comes. We should not harden our hearts to God's commandments that He gives us for our own good.

 

[Cornelius8L]

Not really responsive to my post so I will only touch on the first point.

Scripture is not referring to the earthy Temple in Isaiah 66:22-23 This is God's heavenly Temple where the saints will be worshipping the Lord from one Sabbath to another Isaiah 66:22-23. God's will for us in heaven is not different than it is for us on this earth- hence why He gave us the Sabbath commandment. The ark of the covenant which holds God's finger-written commandments is still in God's heavenly Temple Revelation 11:19 under His mercy seat because it is what we will be judged by. James 2:10-12. The saints keep these commandments and the faith in Jesus. Revelation 14:12

Revelation 21:2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

I pray we will all be ready when Jesus comes. We should not harden our hearts to God's commandments that He gives us for our own good.

Oh, that was how you structured it. My bad, I read prophecy differently. But let’s understand this passage.

Numbers 12;6-8
He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, will reveal Myself to him in a vision; I will speak to him in a dream. But this is not so with My servant Moses; he is faithful in all My house. I speak with him face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD.​

God informed us prophecy is a riddle. A prophecy cannot be read literally. When Peter saw the vision of the unclean animals (Acts 10:9-16), or Prophet Agabus bound Paul (Acts 21:10-11), are those explanations by what we see directly? No. Naturally, the messages in Revelation are also with indirect meanings. But we can discuss that in a separate thread.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Oh, that was how you structured it. My bad, I read prophecy differently. But let’s understand this passage.

Numbers 12;6-8
He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, will reveal Myself to him in a vision; I will speak to him in a dream. But this is not so with My servant Moses; he is faithful in all My house. I speak with him face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD.​

God informed us prophecy is a riddle. A prophecy cannot be read literally. When Peter saw the vision of the unclean animals (Acts 10:9-16), or Prophet Agabus bound Paul (Acts 21:10-11), are those explanations by what we see directly? No. Naturally, the messages in Revelation are also with indirect meanings. But we can discuss that in a separate thread.

The Lord spoke directly to many of the Prophets as He did with Isaiah:

Isaiah 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. 2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one cried to another and said:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
The whole earth is full of His glory!”

4 And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 So I said:

“Woe is me, for I am undone!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King,
The Lord of hosts.”

6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a live coal which he had taken with the tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth with it, and said:

“Behold, this has touched your lips;
Your iniquity is taken away,
And your sin purged.”

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying:

“Whom shall I send,
And who will go for Us?”

Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”

9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:

‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’

10 “Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”

11 Then I said, “Lord, how long?”

And He answered:

“Until the cities are laid waste and without inhabitant,
The houses are without a man,
The land is utterly desolate,
12 The Lord has removed men far away,
And the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.
13 But yet a tenth will be in it,
And will return and be for consuming,
As a terebinth tree or as an oak,
Whose stump remains when it is cut down.
So the holy seed shall be its stump.”

 

[Doran]

In Hebrews 4:8, another day" is the "day" of David, as Hebrews 4:7 makes evident. The fact that in the days of David and Solomon, Israel was in full possession of the land of Canaan, makes it clear that the "rest" here referred to was not the literal occupation of Canaan, but the glorious role God intended for Israel. The generation of Israel that left Egypt "entered not in "to the literal Land of Promise" Hebrews 4:6 and those who did enter into literal Canaan never, as a nation, entered into the spiritual "rest" God purposed for them.

(emphases mine)

Interesting. So "my rest" (i.e. God's rest) in Ps 95:11 doesn't necessarily have to be the ritualistic 7th day sabbath observance, correct? (Good to know for the future.) However, you speak of this "glorious role God intended for Israel", but you don't support your contention. Where in scripture does God speak of this glorious role he intended for Israel and call it "my rest"? Chapter and verse, please. As someone once said, commentary without scriptural support or personal opinion count for nothing, right?

I tried to give you a hint to the correct interpretation by reminding you that this psalm included a history lesson. But you ignored the hint. Not only did you ignore it but you tripped over yourself by contradicting yourself. In one breath you tell us why "my rest" it can't the literal land rest per the bolded part of the above quote; but then in the very next breath tell us that there was an entire generation that never did enter the land. Well..since this latter observation is a biblical fact, why couldn't v.11 be referring to that generation that never entered into the land, especially since in the Law there is never any mention of people entering into the 7th day sabbath rest? In fact, the psalmist is very specific about which generation of Jews he had in mind by mentioning the rebellious incidents and where they occurred. This, then, is the correct interpretation of v. 11.

To prove this, I would refer you to Numbers 14.

Num 14:20-25
20 The LORD replied, "I have forgiven them, as you asked. 21 Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the LORD fills the whole earth, 22 not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times — 23 not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their forefathers. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it. 24 But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it. 25 Since the Amalekites and Canaanites are living in the valleys, turn back tomorrow and set out toward the desert along the route to the Red Sea."
NIV

And,

Num 14:26-31

26 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron: 27 "How long will this wicked community grumble against me? I have heard the complaints of these grumbling Israelites. 28 So tell them, 'As surely as I live, declares the LORD, I will do to you the very things I heard you say: 29 In this desert your bodies will fall — every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me. 30 Not one of you will ENTER the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun.
NIV

The operative word in v.30 is "enter". See also Deuteronomy 1 for further biblical commentary.

So...when God said that that generation would not enter "my rest", he was saying that that generation would not enter his land that he promised to their fathers. God's promised land = "my rest".

Moreover, if you read Deut 28:1-14, how is it even remotely possible to not infer from all the blessings mentioned therein that that Land of Milk and Honey would provide rest, peace, repose, tranquility and prosperity for all the people if they were obedient to the covenant?

Lastly, we have these passages to deal with. I'm going to quote them because citing passages has zero effect. I cited these passages several days ago, but they were like water on a duck's back to you, apparently.

2 Sam 7:1
7:1 After the king was settled in his palace and the LORD had given him rest from all his enemies around him,
NIV

and,

Josh 21:43-45
44 The LORD gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their forefathers. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the LORD handed all their enemies over to them. 45 Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.
NIV

and,

Josh 23:1
23:1 After a long time had passed and the LORD had given Israel rest from all their enemies around them, Joshua, by then old and well advanced in years,
NIV

and,

1 Kings 5:3-4
3 "You know that because of the wars waged against my father David from all sides, he could not build a temple for the Name of the LORD his God until the LORD put his enemies under his feet. 4 But now the LORD my God has given me rest on every side, and there is no adversary or disaster.
NIV

There is no way under this sun whereby we can escape the conclusion that "my rest" referred to God's promise land. After all, in the next age, will not all of God's children enter into God's perfect rest in the recreated earth? Can you not see how the Promised Land in the OT is but a type of the eternal, visible kingdom?

Rev 21:1-4
21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
NIV

Sounds like the perfect rest when the New Creation that has begun in this Gospel age will find it's ultimate eschatological fulfillment in the next. I will address the rest of your post later. (No pun intended <g>.)

 

[SabbathBlessings]

(emphases mine)

Interesting. So "my rest" (i.e. God's rest) in Ps 95:11 doesn't necessarily have to be the ritualistic 7th day sabbath observance, correct? (Good to know for the future.) However, you speak of this "glorious role God intended for Israel", but you don't support your contention. Where in scripture does God speak of this glorious role he intended for Israel and call it "my rest"? Chapter and verse, please. As someone once said, commentary without scriptural support or personal opinion count for nothing, right?

I tried to give you a hint to the correct interpretation by reminding you that this psalm included a history lesson. But you ignored the hint. Not only did you ignore it but you tripped over yourself by contradicting yourself. In one breath you tell us why "my rest" it can't the literal land rest per the bolded part of the above quote; but then in the very next breath tell us that there was an entire generation that never did enter the land. Well..since this latter observation is a biblical fact, why couldn't v.11 be referring to that generation that never entered into the land, especially since in the Law there is never any mention of people entering into the 7th day sabbath rest? In fact, the psalmist is very specific about which generation of Jews he had in mind by mentioning the rebellious incidents and where they occurred. This, then, is the correct interpretation of v. 11.

To prove this, I would refer you to Numbers 14.

Num 14:20-25
20 The LORD replied, "I have forgiven them, as you asked. 21 Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the LORD fills the whole earth, 22 not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times — 23 not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their forefathers. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it. 24 But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it. 25 Since the Amalekites and Canaanites are living in the valleys, turn back tomorrow and set out toward the desert along the route to the Red Sea."
NIV

And,

Num 14:26-31

26 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron: 27 "How long will this wicked community grumble against me? I have heard the complaints of these grumbling Israelites. 28 So tell them, 'As surely as I live, declares the LORD, I will do to you the very things I heard you say: 29 In this desert your bodies will fall — every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me. 30 Not one of you will ENTER the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun.
NIV

The operative word in v.30 is "enter". See also Deuteronomy 1 for further biblical commentary.

So...when God said that that generation would not enter "my rest", he was saying that that generation would not enter his land that he promised to their fathers. God's promised land = "my rest".

Moreover, if you read Deut 28:1-14, how is it even remotely possible to not infer from all the blessings mentioned therein that that Land of Milk and Honey would provide rest, peace, repose, tranquility and prosperity for all the people if they were obedient to the covenant?

Lastly, we have these passages to deal with. I'm going to quote them because citing passages has zero effect. I cited these passages several days ago, but they were like water on a duck's back to you, apparently.

2 Sam 7:1
7:1 After the king was settled in his palace and the LORD had given him rest from all his enemies around him,
NIV

and,

Josh 21:43-45
44 The LORD gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their forefathers. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the LORD handed all their enemies over to them. 45 Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.
NIV

and,

Josh 23:1
23:1 After a long time had passed and the LORD had given Israel rest from all their enemies around them, Joshua, by then old and well advanced in years,
NIV

and,

1 Kings 5:3-4
3 "You know that because of the wars waged against my father David from all sides, he could not build a temple for the Name of the LORD his God until the LORD put his enemies under his feet. 4 But now the LORD my God has given me rest on every side, and there is no adversary or disaster.
NIV

There is no way under this sun whereby we can escape the conclusion that "my rest" referred to God's promise land. After all, in the next age, will not all of God's children enter into God's perfect rest in the recreated earth? Can you not see how the Promised Land in the OT is but a type of the eternal, visible kingdom?

Rev 21:1-4
21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
NIV

Sounds like the perfect rest when the New Creation that has begun in this Gospel age will find it's ultimate eschatological fulfillment in the next. I will address the rest of your post later. (No pun intended <g>.)

There are two rests being referred to in Hebrews 4. The spiritual rest in Christ, when we cease from our works on the seventh day (Sabbath rest) Hebrews 4:9-10. We cannot receive the spiritual rest by our disobedience by hardening our hearts. Hebrews 4:6. We are called to enter into Christ rest which we must cease from our work like God did on the seventh day, which the scripture clearly shows. Hebrews 4:4.

Your version has nothing to do with Hebrews 4 which is why you didn't stick with the scriptures in Hebrews 3 or 4.

Take care.

 

[Bob S]

The OT is all he has. For there is no imperative command in the NT that requires any New Covenant saint to observe any day.

I wonder if SB believes that sabbath-keeping is a requirement for salvation?

I would presume SB is as true to her church as "the needle is to the post". So, the church tells us that the writings of Ellen White are equal to the writings in the Holy Writ. The following quotations from prophet Ellen's writings should answer your question.

But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath, can be held guiltless in the sight of God. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14}

All will be judged according to the light that has shone upon them. If they have light upon the Sabbath, they cannot be saved in rejecting that light.{HS 234.3}

As persons become convinced from the Scriptures that the claims of the fourth commandment are still binding, the question is often raised, Is it necessary in order to secure salvation that we keep the Sabbath? This is a question of grave importance. If the light has shone from the word of God, if the message has been presented to men, as it was to Pharaoh, and they refuse to heed that message, if they reject the light, they refuse to obey God, and cannot be saved in their disobedience. {RH, January 5, 1886 par. 2}

I guess according to the prophet, Ellen, if the flock would just be quiet and not spread the Sabath news the rest of us could be saved. According to their beliefs millions upon millions who never believed them or those who once believed have no chance to inherit eternity. One thing the prophet was not, the Judge, same for her converts.

Actually, no one has ever really kept the Sabbath according to Is 58:13, so Heaven is pretty much void and will remain that way. According to some.

Many of the churches that have extra Biblical requirements in order to be a faithful Christian surely add to the lack of anyone finding salvation. I thank God for Jesus and His faithful disciples who have given us the real truth. I am a follower of John and in 1Jn he wrote that we have the truth when we believe in Jesus and love others as He taught.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I would presume SB is as true to her church as "the needle is to the post". So, the church tells us that the writings of Ellen White are equal to the writings in the Holy Writ. The following quotations from prophet Ellen's writings should answer your question.

But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath, can be held guiltless in the sight of God. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14}

All will be judged according to the light that has shone upon them. If they have light upon the Sabbath, they cannot be saved in rejecting that light.{HS 234.3}

As persons become convinced from the Scriptures that the claims of the fourth commandment are still binding, the question is often raised, Is it necessary in order to secure salvation that we keep the Sabbath? This is a question of grave importance. If the light has shone from the word of God, if the message has been presented to men, as it was to Pharaoh, and they refuse to heed that message, if they reject the light, they refuse to obey God, and cannot be saved in their disobedience. {RH, January 5, 1886 par. 2}

I guess according to the prophet, Ellen, if the flock would just be quiet and not spread the Sabath news the rest of us could be saved. According to their beliefs millions upon millions who never believed them or those who once believed have no chance to inherit eternity. One thing the prophet was not, the Judge, same for her converts.

Actually, no one has ever really kept the Sabbath according to Is 58:13, so Heaven is pretty much void and will remain that way. According to some.

Many of the churches that have extra Biblical requirements in order to be a faithful Christian surely add to the lack of anyone finding salvation. I thank God for Jesus and His faithful disciples who have given us the real truth. I am a follower of John and in 1Jn he wrote that we have the truth when we believe in Jesus and love others as He taught.

Ellen White did not give the Sabbath commandment, God did. He spoke, He wrote it and told us to Remember, which means we should not forget.

Funny that scripture says the same thing, if we willingly sin, there remains no more sacrifice. Hebrews 10:26-30. EW didn't write Hebrews either. Sin is the transgression of the Law so we know what not to break 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7

 

[Doran]

Are you chastising me for my statement to SB? I don't remember redemptive value being discussed, so why would you chastise me for something that was not mentioned? My theory is to pick your fights, not everything is worthy of fighting over. I realize that you are not fighting me, but you are attempting to put me down. If you want to discuss the redemptive value of the covenants, I would be happy to do so. Start a thread.


You seem to have forgotten about Abraham. I assumed he was a Gentile. Now as to being grafted, why did you bring that into the conversation? I don't believe your theory, but that too is a subject you can start a thread if you think you have the answers. You might be surprised my friend. Anyway, I am glad you are posting and I have enjoyed reading your previous thoughts.

 

[Doran]

I would presume SB is as true to her church as "the needle is to the post". So, the church tells us that the writings of Ellen White are equal to the writings in the Holy Writ. The following quotations from prophet Ellen's writings should answer your question.

But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath, can be held guiltless in the sight of God. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14}

All will be judged according to the light that has shone upon them. If they have light upon the Sabbath, they cannot be saved in rejecting that light.{HS 234.3}

As persons become convinced from the Scriptures that the claims of the fourth commandment are still binding, the question is often raised, Is it necessary in order to secure salvation that we keep the Sabbath? This is a question of grave importance. If the light has shone from the word of God, if the message has been presented to men, as it was to Pharaoh, and they refuse to heed that message, if they reject the light, they refuse to obey God, and cannot be saved in their disobedience. {RH, January 5, 1886 par. 2}

I guess according to the prophet, Ellen, if the flock would just be quiet and not spread the Sabath news the rest of us could be saved. According to their beliefs millions upon millions who never believed them or those who once believed have no chance to inherit eternity. One thing the prophet was not, the Judge, same for her converts.

Actually, no one has ever really kept the Sabbath according to Is 58:13, so Heaven is pretty much void and will remain that way. According to some.

Many of the churches that have extra Biblical requirements in order to be a faithful Christian surely add to the lack of anyone finding salvation. I thank God for Jesus and His faithful disciples who have given us the real truth. I am a follower of John and in 1Jn he wrote that we have the truth when we believe in Jesus and love others as He taught.

Actually, Bob, I meant to reply to SB. Sorry about that. This BB format is somewhat primitive to what I'm accustomed to using, so I'm still trying to get the hang of it.

 

[Doran]

I would presume SB is as true to her church as "the needle is to the post". So, the church tells us that the writings of Ellen White are equal to the writings in the Holy Writ. The following quotations from prophet Ellen's writings should answer your question.

But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath, can be held guiltless in the sight of God. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14}

All will be judged according to the light that has shone upon them. If they have light upon the Sabbath, they cannot be saved in rejecting that light.{HS 234.3}

As persons become convinced from the Scriptures that the claims of the fourth commandment are still binding, the question is often raised, Is it necessary in order to secure salvation that we keep the Sabbath? This is a question of grave importance. If the light has shone from the word of God, if the message has been presented to men, as it was to Pharaoh, and they refuse to heed that message, if they reject the light, they refuse to obey God, and cannot be saved in their disobedience. {RH, January 5, 1886 par. 2}

I guess according to the prophet, Ellen, if the flock would just be quiet and not spread the Sabath news the rest of us could be saved. According to their beliefs millions upon millions who never believed them or those who once believed have no chance to inherit eternity. One thing the prophet was not, the Judge, same for her converts.

Actually, no one has ever really kept the Sabbath according to Is 58:13, so Heaven is pretty much void and will remain that way. According to some.

Many of the churches that have extra Biblical requirements in order to be a faithful Christian surely add to the lack of anyone finding salvation. I thank God for Jesus and His faithful disciples who have given us the real truth. I am a follower of John and in 1Jn he wrote that we have the truth when we believe in Jesus and love others as He taught.

Proving once again that when one interprets only by the "letter" that letter will kill (2Cor 3:6)! It seems that sabbatarians simply cannot see that the sabbath day is much larger than just one day in seven. They cannot see the infinitely more profound eschatological implications to the antitype.

 

[Doran]

Our commentaries are not scripture.

Not one scripture you quoted say this, which is what you claimed:

1. The weekly Sabbath commandment is ceremonial
2. The weekly Sabbath is not a commandment of God
3. The weekly Sabbath commandment is a shadow in Hebrews or anywhere
4. Any scripture that says we are free to break a commandment of God including the weekly Sabbath commandment
5. Jesus is the weekly Sabbath and we no longer have to obey the Sabbath commandment the way God instructed

You're free to believe what you want, but I would be careful making statements about the Word of God, that you can't back through scripture.

I am going to bow out because I don't think we will come to any agreement on the Word of God and that's okay.

I gave my arguments yesterday with prooftexts, which you never address. You seem to never address anyone's argument directly. All you can do is post your canned responses. Quick review:

1. What part of Heb 10:1 can't you understand? If the entire covenant of law was but a shadow, then how much more the 4th commandment which is a weekly religious RITUAL.

2. The sabbath is a holy convocation (see Lev 23:3ff). Can you name any moral law that is described as such? Do you even know what a convocation is?

3. Jesus made an analogy in Luke 6 and Matthew 12 between two different ceremonial laws to defend his actions on the sabbath.

4. In addition to that, he brings the very epicenter of ceremonial law into his defense -- the temple, making yet another genre of law comparison to the sabbath law.

5. I also wrote a lengthy post loaded with prooftexts to show that the fourth commandment is the sign to the Mosaic Covenant, proving its ceremonial-ritualistic genre since no moral law in scripture was ever given as a sign.

6. Paul in Rom 14:5 leaves the matter of deciding whether or not one day is more sacred than another to be observed to an individual's conscience. This is something Paul could never do if a ritualistic observance of a religious day was of the moral genre of law.

7. Paul again affirms the above the nature sabbath law in Col 2:15 since he lumps food, religious festivals, New Moon celebrations and Sabbaths into one class of scripture. What all these sub-categories had in common was they were ceremonial laws.

So, what arguments do you have to refute these facts: Wishful thinking?

Finally, point number 2 that I highlighted above is an outright lie. I never even remotely hinted at what you say, let alone make any explicit statements to that effect. This is a sure sign of your desperation when you have to grossly misrepresent the other side's position. Not very Christ-like, I might add.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I gave my arguments yesterday with prooftexts, which you never address. You seem to never address anyone's argument directly. All you can do is post your canned responses. Quick review:

1. What part of Heb 10:1 can't you understand? If the entire covenant of law was but a shadow, then how much more the 4th commandment which is a weekly religious RITUAL.

You might want to ask yourself this same question. You said Hebrews 1 said the Sabbath commandment is ceremonial

What does the scripture say?

Hebrews 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.

First off Hebrews 10 is not referring to the Sabbath commandment, but animal sacrifices.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

The Sabbath commandment is not mentioned once in Hebrews 10. You are adding to God's Word and I would be careful doing so. Deuteronomy 4:2, Proverbs 30:5-6

2. The sabbath is a holy convocation (see Lev 23:3ff). Can you name any moral law that is described as such? Do you even know what a convocation is?

This does not say the weekly Sabbath is ceremonial.

I do know what a holy convocation means, and the Sabbath commandment is being expanded upon just like the other commandments throughout scripture. I am aware that God made the Sabbath different than all other commandments, which we should not try to undermine His reasoning for doing this. The Sabbath commandment is the only commandment that we are told to do something - we are commanded to keep the Sabbath holy. Which is probably why people object to this commandment so much because it involves our time. A holy convocation is a gathering of God's people an assembly which we see at Church and how Jesus kept the Sabbath Luke 4:16

3. Jesus made an analogy in Luke 6 and Matthew 12 between two different ceremonial laws to defend his actions on the sabbath.
4. In addition to that, he brings the very epicenter of ceremonial law into his defense -- the temple, making yet another genre of law comparison to the sabbath law.

Does not say the Sabbath commandment is ceremonial so again adding to what is not there

5. I also wrote a lengthy post loaded with prooftexts to show that the fourth commandment is the sign to the Mosaic Covenant, proving its ceremonial-ritualistic genre since no moral law in scripture was ever given as a sign.

Yet not one scripture that says the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant- again adding to what is not in the scriptures.

This is what the scripture says:

Exodus 31:13 “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you

The Sabbath, it is a sign between God and His people who keep the Sabbath, just like the scripture says. We should all want to be one of God's people.

6. Paul in Rom 14:5 leaves the matter of deciding whether or not one day is more sacred than another to be observed to an individual's conscience. This is something Paul could never do if a ritualistic observance of a religious day was of the moral genre of law.

In all of Romans 14 it doesn't mention the Sabbath commandment once. You are adding to what's not there. Yet you have not produced one scripture that says we can break the Sabbath commandment, or the Sabbath is ceremonial.

7. Paul again affirms the above the nature sabbath law in Col 2:15 since he lumps food, religious festivals, New Moon celebrations and Sabbaths into one class of scripture. What all these sub-categories had in common was they were ceremonial laws.

I wrote a detailed post on this here Ordinances

Some highlights

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

So we know this from Colossians 2:14:
1. They are handwritten
2. They are ordinances
3. They are contrary.

Does this fit the Sabbath commandment in any way? Absolutely not.
1. The Sabbath was finger-written by God Exodus 31:18
2. The Sabbath is a commandment of God. Exodus 20, Exodus 34:28
3. God said the Sabbath is holy and blessed Exodus 20:8-11

Finally, point number 2 that I highlighted above is an outright lie. I never even remotely hinted at what you say, let alone make any explicit statements to that effect. This is a sure sign of your desperation when you have to grossly misrepresent the other side's position. Not very Christ-like, I might add.

Well if you believe the Sabbath is a commandment of God, why are you trying so hard to argue against it?

This is a definition of a commandment- it's not debatable!
commandment
[ kuh-mand-muhnt, -mahnd- ]
See synonyms for: commandment / commandments on Thesaurus.com

noun
a command or mandate.
(sometimes initial capital letter) any of the Ten Commandments.
the act or power of commanding.

We are the creation and do not have equal say in what God has commanded us- our Creator.

So far you have not proved these statements. I removed one since you said you agree the Sabbath is a commandment of God, so really not sure why this is even a debate. Is a commandment a suggestion or just what is says?

1. The weekly Sabbath commandment is ceremonial
3. The weekly Sabbath commandment is a shadow in Hebrews or anywhere
4. Any scripture that says we are free to break a commandment of God including the weekly Sabbath commandment
5. Jesus is the weekly Sabbath and we no longer have to obey the Sabbath commandment the way God instructed

 

[Doran]

There are two rests being referred to in Hebrews 4. The spiritual rest in Christ, when we cease from our works on the seventh day (Sabbath rest) Hebrews 4:9-10. We cannot receive the spiritual rest by our disobedience by hardening our hearts. Hebrews 4:6. We are called to enter into Christ rest which we must cease from our work like God did on the seventh day, which the scripture clearly shows. Hebrews 4:4.

Your version has nothing to do with Hebrews 4 which is why you didn't stick with the scriptures in Hebrews 3 or 4.

Take care.

Why should I stick with the scriptures in Hebrews 3 and 4? Wasn't the historical wilderness account in Psalm 95 reiterated, in even more detail, in the OT passages I quoted? But I guess the OT passages were too tough to reconcile with your narrative?

You see, SB, I'm already inside your head. This is the reason I didn't quote that portion of Psalm 95 from Hebrews. I was pretty sure you would avoid the OT passages. But why should I? David didn't when he wrote the psalm. All he had to go by were the OT scriptures, so why shouldn't I use them?

It's crystal clear from the OT that the land was was God's rest. After all, God GAVE the sabbath to the Israelites in Ex 16:29, just like he gave his land to them. Therefore, the writer to Hebrews would have understood Psalm 95, which he quoted in part, the same way I do. For he, too, would have drawn from his knowledge from the same OT scriptures I did (and perhaps others as well, which is all he had when he pennned the book.

But it's good to know that you think that resting in Christ only happens on the 7th day of the sabbath. So where does that leave everyone on the other six days?