Intelligent Design, Creationism and Deism

J_B_

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Again, how is it possible to bend a thing that isn't a thing?

Again, you haven't explained how a difference in the readout of two clocks that experienced different inertial reference frames is not just a difference in two clocks.
 
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The Barbarian

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Again, how is it possible to bend a thing that isn't a thing?

Again, you haven't explained how a difference in the readout of two clocks that experienced different inertial reference frames is not just a difference in two clocks.

I'm talking about the mass of the sun bending space around it. Directly observed. How is it possible for physical forces to bend something that isn't a thing?

And how is it that mere velocity can change time, if it's not a thing? And yes, cesium decay will slow down if the substance is moving at a high rate of speed. So how is a universal constant of time changed by velocity, if time is not a thing?
 
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J_B_

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Again, how is it possible to bend a thing that isn't a thing?

Saying the same thing over and over isn't going to get this conversation unstuck. Do you want to get it unstuck? If so, let's address this question: What is the difference between an object and a property?

Why am I bringing up that question? Because I'm saying time is a property of material objects, not a separate thing. Therefore it seems to be the situation is thus:
J_B_: Time is a property of objects
Barbarian: Time is an object (feel free to correct this to accurately represent your position in terms of time, objects, and their properties).
 
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The Barbarian

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What is the difference between an object and a property?

Back up a second. So if something is not an object, it's not a thing? Is light an object? It's a thing. We can even count the particles hitting a detector.

Is gamma radiation an object? It is a detectable thing.

Is gravity a thing or a property? Or is it both?
 
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J_B_

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Back up a second. So if something is not an object, it's not a thing? Is light an object? It's a thing. We can even count the particles hitting a detector.

Is gamma radiation an object? It is a detectable thing.

Is gravity a thing or a property? Or is it both?

I thought it might help to move this toward a more formal conversation. "Object" is the typical philosophical term used for a thing. Or, if you prefer, we can use the scientific terms: particles (fundamental units of matter) & bodies (collections of matter).

But it does no good to answer your questions if you don't confirm that you understand these terms. So ... again ... what is the difference between an object and a property? Or, if you prefer, what is the difference between bodies/particles and their properties?
 
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The Barbarian

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But it does no good to answer your questions if you don't confirm that you understand these terms. So ... again ... what is the difference between an object and a property? Or, if you prefer, what is the difference between bodies/particles and their properties?

A property is some characteristic of something. Can a property also be a thing? Apparently, in philosophy, it can be. See below.

Inertia is a property of matter, but inertia does not act on anything. Mass is a property of matter and it does act on things. Volume is a property of matter. Gravity is a property of matter. We know that gravity is a thing, because it has waves.

Time is not an object, but since it is affected by physical phenomena, it is a thing. Space can be bent by gravity. So it's a thing.

"Object" is the typical philosophical term used for a thing.

That suggests that the only things in the universe are objects. Is that what you meant?


In philosophy, an object is a thing, an entity, or a being. This may be taken in several senses.

In its weakest sense, the word object is the most all-purpose of nouns, and can replace a noun in any sentence at all. (In ordinary usage, the word has something like this effect, but not as extreme.) Thus objects are things as diverse as the pyramids, Alpha Centauri, the number seven, my belief in predestination, and your mother's fear of dogs. Charles S. Peirce succinctly defines the broad notion of an object as follows:


"By an object, I mean anything that we can think, i.e. anything we can talk about." [1]

In a more restricted sense, an object is something that can have properties and bear relations to other objects. On this account, properties and relations (as well as propositions) are not included among objects, but are explicitly contrasted with them, as falling into a different logical category. Sets and universals are also perhaps not objects on this account.

In a further restricted sense, objects do not include anything abstract, but only things located somehow in space and time — minds and bodies, for instance. Numbers, ideas, and the like are out.

In further restricted senses, objects are often just the material objects (excluding minds), or even just the inanimate material objects (the protons, neutrons, and electrons we are made of, but not we ourselves).

Objects are often treated as types of particulars, but occasionally, philosophers see fit to speak of abstract objects — Platonic forms would be an example. An abstract object is normally referred to something that does not exist physically. It is rational to say that abstract objects exist psychically, as opposed to physically.

Object (philosophy) | Psychology Wiki | Fandom

So here we are. Which, if any, of these fits your definition of "object?"
 
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J_B_

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So here we are. Which, if any, of these fits your definition of "object?"

I was willing to let you specify, but if you're going to leave it to me, in the context of this thread I would use the one quoted below:

In a more restricted sense, an object is something that can have properties and bear relations to other objects. On this account, properties and relations (as well as propositions) are not included among objects, but are explicitly contrasted with them, as falling into a different logical category. Sets and universals are also perhaps not objects on this account.

Therefore, I would allow for both material (physical) objects and abstract (immaterial) objects.

I would further specify that objects are independent, whereas properties are always associated. There can be one electron, and that electron is not dependent upon the existence of another electron or a neutron or anything else. However, I cannot have momentum by itself. Momentum is associated with the electron. The consequence of this is that objects are countable - a further consequence being that they have some kind of location and extent. I can't count electrons if I can't distinguish one from another, and I can't distinguish them if I can't specify that one is located here and another is located there.

Properties may be quantized (or spectral), but they are not countable in the same unitless sense. It is better to say they are measured by some type of unit. I don't say I have an electron with x momentums, but rather that I have an electron with a momentum of x kg-m/s.

In that sense, then, all the fundamental particles of physics are objects.

Given that, do you want to stick with this statement or change it?

Time is not an object ...

If you stick with it, does that mean time is a property? Or is that a false dichotomy and you want to add a 3rd possibility (a scientifically accepted possibility of course).
 
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The Barbarian

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Therefore, I would allow for both material (physical) objects and abstract (immaterial) objects.

Then we will depart from English usage:

The Cambridge Dictionary:
a thing that you can see or touch but that is not usually a living animal, plant, or person:

a solid/material/physical object
a collection of precious objects
Several people reported seeing a strange object in the sky.

And space and time become objects.

In that sense, then, all the fundamental particles of physics are objects.

Since the photoelectric effect shows photons striking a detector, that would follow.

 
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Well, scientists have not been able to recreate life, so we can't prove, using science, how life started. But evolution can be proven because bacteria evolve immunity to drugs over time.
I think the problem is not evolution (adaptation to changes, genetic changes, mutations, etc.) but the evolution of species (an animal evolving from one species to another).

My wife has caused me to evolve to a more docile, and plump, human. But I have not evolved to Brad Pitt (an entirely different species). :(
 
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The Barbarian

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I think the problem is not evolution (adaptation to changes, genetic changes, mutations, etc.) but the evolution of species (an animal evolving from one species to another).

Most creationists have now conceded the observed fact of speciation. Most now admit that new species, genera, and sometimes families of organisms appear from existing ones. They just say that it's "not real evolution."
 
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Most creationists have now conceded the observed fact of speciation. Most now admit that new species, genera, and sometimes families of organisms appear from existing ones. They just say that it's "not real evolution."
It is real evolution. A bacteria evolves to become resistant to an antibiotic (that resistance is passed down). Birds evolve to possess different charactistics (again, passed down to another generation).

What it seems mist creationists question is something like a fish evolving to something not a fish, an ape evolving to something not an ape, a bird evolving to something not a bird. Essentially this is what the Theory of the Evolution of Species teaches. Something evolved into something unrelated (even if by degrees).

Personally I do not understand all the hoopla. The theory challenges some traditional views, but who cares? I understand the hesitation about teaching the theory as fact, but at the same time we need to encourage critical thinking (which, I suppose, includes not teaching any theory as fact but encouraging questions).

As an observer it seems both sides (evolutionists and creationists) have a tendency to discouraged questions. This is unfortunate as there are just as many reasons to question the Theory of the Evolution of Species as there is to question Christianity. One wants us to believe a theory based on micro evolution within a species while the other wants us to believe a man rose from the dead. Neither are easy beliefs.
 
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J_B_

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And space and time become objects.

So far I've focused on time, but if you want the discussion to be about space-time, I'm fine with that.

What then are the properties of space-time? How is one space-time distinguished from another space-time? How are space-times counted?

I'm sure a variety of opinions about space-time can be found in the peer-reviewed literature, but just as a note that my view is not mine alone, consider these, which specifically call time a property, not an object:

1) Time As a Geometric Property of Space, Chappell, et. al. Front. Phys., 17 November 2016.

The abstract opens with this line, "The proper description of time remains a key unsolved problem in science." It then goes on to note that time is currently described in physics as a property of Minkowski space-time. It then makes the point that since this is a mathematical (abstract) description of time, not a physical/material one, time can be handled in many different ways. They propose using Clifford algebra such that time becomes "an intrinsic geometric property of three-dimensional space without the need for the specific addition of a fourth dimension."

2) Time, what is it? Dynamical Properties of Time, Oleinik, et. al. Fifth International Conference “Material Science and Material Properties for Infrared Optoelectronics”.

In the introduction it states "... time still remains one of the most mysterious concepts of physics."

It then goes on to say that they have developed a "dynamical principle" such that "The significance of the
dynamical principle lies in the fact that it relates the temporal evolution of system to the physical processes caused by force fields and in doing so it allows one to determine the course of time in the system, its possible dependence upon the character of physical processes, and not just the sequence of events and their duration." IOW, time is not an object - some cosmic counter ticking off the seconds - but a consequence of physical processes such as force acting on material to cause motion.

To be fair, the paper claims time has physical properties, but I can't see where they ever articulate what those properties are. They simply say time has them, and then show all the ways in which time is dependent upon (associated with) material objects. That is something we have defined in this thread as a property, not an object. But if you can tease out from that paper what time's properties are (as we defined a property), I'd be interested to see that.
 
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J_B_

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Then we will depart from English usage ...

Science often defines terms differently than their colloquial usage. I gave you the opportunity to specify the definitions, but you deferred to me. Even then, the definition we're using is based on a passage you provided regarding definitions of "object". You must be aware that words have multiple meanings. There is not one singular English usage. So here we are.
 
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The Barbarian

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You must be aware that words have multiple meanings. There is not one singular English usage. So here we are.

If you don't use words as they are commonly used, that's a problem in communication.

What then are the properties of space-time?

It is distorted by mass and velocity, for one. But since it has properties, it surely is an object, based on several of your definitions of an object.
 
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J_B_

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If you don't use words as they are commonly used, that's a problem in communication.

I am. I accepted one of the usages you provided. Are you withdrawing your request for me to choose from the options in post #46? Your "common English usage" from post #48 is essentially one of the last and most restricted of the options from post #46.

It is distorted by mass and velocity, for one.

Those aren't properties. Those are relationships to objects, which was part of the definition, but we can't know what is being distorted until we know the object's properties. Remember, a property can be measured in terms of some SI unit.
 
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The Barbarian

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Those aren't properties.

Yes, that is a property of space time. It can be distorted by mass and velocity. Just as malleability is a property of metals. C'mon.

Experiments show that:
No point in time or space has properties that make it different from any other point.
Likewise, all directions in space have the same properties.
Motion is relative, i.e., all inertial frames of reference are equally valid.
Causality holds, in the sense described on page 381.
Time depends on the state of motion of the observer.

8.2: Distortion of Space and Time

Remember, a property can be measured in terms of some SI unit.

upload_2022-10-7_17-4-1.png


SI units.
 
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J_B_

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Yes, that is a property of space time. It can be distorted by mass and velocity.

Not as we defined it for this thread. We're making a distinction between properties (something intrinsic to the body) and relations (something extrinsic involving other bodies). Again, I'm not saying time dilation doesn't happen, but as we've defined it, it's a relation not a property. Given your background, I thought you'd be more sensitive to clear definitions and rigor in adhering to them. But, whatever. Let the wind blow where it will.

Is that the only one you can think of? I expected the obvious, that time progresses, i.e. time counts upward from lower numbers to higher numbers, and the SI unit is seconds. But, again, whatever.

For the time dilation you mentioned, it is an effect. It happens to time. Does time cause anything?
 
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The Barbarian

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Not as we defined it for this thread. We're making a distinction between properties (something intrinsic to the body) and relations (something extrinsic involving other bodies).

If that's so, metal is not an object. Hmm...

Space has the property of becoming shorter in the directioin of mothion. Time has the property of slowing down for objects in motion.

J_B_ said:
Remember, a property can be measured in terms of some SI unit.

See above. It is. By your definition the property of space to be distorted by mass, is measured in a unit that is part of the SI system.
 
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ID was initially intended to be a legally-defensible way to insert creationism into public schools. This ended in what ID inventor Philip Johnson called a "train wreck" in Kitzmiller v. Dover.

Intelligent design (ID) is a pseudoscientific argument for the existence of God, presented by its proponents as "an evidence-based scientific theory about life's origins".[1][2][3][4][5] Proponents claim that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."[6] ID is a form of creationism that lacks empirical support and offers no testable or tenable hypotheses, and is therefore not science.[7][8][9] The leading proponents of ID are associated with the Discovery Institute, a Christian, politically conservative think tank based in the United States.
...
Although the phrase intelligent design had featured previously in theological discussions of the argument from design,[10] its first publication in its present use as an alternative term for creationism was in Of Pandas and People,[11][12] a 1989 creationist textbook intended for high school biology classes. The term was substituted into drafts of the book, directly replacing references to creation science and creationism, after the 1987 Supreme Court's Edwards v. Aguillard decision barred the teaching of creation science in public schools on constitutional grounds.[13] From the mid-1990s, the intelligent design movement (IDM), supported by the Discovery Institute,[14] advocated inclusion of intelligent design in public school biology curricula.[7] This led to the 2005 Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial, which found that intelligent design was not science, that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents", and that the public school district's promotion of it therefore violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.

ID has had a rocky path since, with some, including Philip Johnson ( at least initially a creationist) saying that perhaps the designer was "a space alien." Discovery Institute fellow Michael Behe now says that he accepts evolution, even though he thinks God has to step in now and then to make it work.


And another Discovery Institute fellow, Michael Denton seems to have become a deist in his book Nature's Destiny, breaking completely with creationists in an explicit way:

t is important to emphasize at the outset that the argument presented here is entirely consistent with the basic naturalistic assumption of modern science–that the cosmos is a seamless unity which can be comprehended in its entirety by human reason and in which all phenomena, including life and evolution and the origin of man, are ultimately explicable in terms of natural processes. This is an assumption which is entirely opposed to that of the so-called “special creationist school.” According to special creationism, living organisms are not natural forms, whose origin and design were built into the laws of nature from the beginning, but rather contingent forms analogous in essence to human artifacts, the result of a series of supernatural acts, involving God’s direct intervention in the course of nature, each of which involved the suspension of natural law. Contrary to the creationist position, the whole argument presented here is critically dependent on the presumption of the unbroken continuity of the organic world–that is, on the reality of organic evolution and on the presumption that all living organisms on earth are natural forms in the profoundest sense of the word, no less natural than salt crystals, atoms, waterfalls, or galaxies.

In large measure, therefore, the teleological argument presented here and the special creationist worldview are mutually exclusive accounts of the world. In the last analysis, evidence for one is evidence against the other. Put simply, the more convincing is the evidence for believing that the world is prefabricated to the end of life, that the design is built into the laws of nature, the less credible becomes the special creationist worldview.
Michael Denton Nature's Destiny p. xi


This erosion of creationists to deism is an ongoing problem, possibly accounting for the noted decline in number of evangelical Christians in the United States.


Naturalism is a faulty assumption on which to base conclusions. Thomas Nagel in his book 'Mind and Cosmos' addresses this materialist reductionism very well though he is not a Christian and is ultimately arguing a monistic worldview that combines mind and science.

There are limits to the scope of science and when it comes to origins most scientists are in effect speculating as they cannot prove their conclusions with the scientific method. Mainstream naturalistic science is no more factual than ID or straight 6-day Creationism when it comes down to what is asserted as science.

Big Bang, Abiogenesis, and Macro-Evolution are the three big background models of our age but not proven facts. So discussions of this sort really come down to questions of faith and trust. Do you trust God's account of creation or do you think there is adequate scientific evidence to overthrow that? Abiogenesis especially is scientifically indefensible yet it is essential for any naturalistic perspective.
 
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The Barbarian

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Naturalism is a faulty assumption on which to base conclusions.

It comes down to results.

Critic of science to scientist: "Why do you persist in your methodological naturalism?"
Scientist: "It works."

Critic of science: "Why don't you use my mystical insights in your work?"

Scientist: "They don't work."

If supernatural assumptions worked, scientists would use them no matter who objected. But they don't work. And that's all that matters.

Big Bang, Abiogenesis, and Macro-Evolution are the three big background models of our age but not proven facts.

Sorry, that's wrong. For a lot of reasons. First, "proof" is not part of science. It merely gathers evidence to the point that denial is foolish.

Scientists accept the Big Bang because it explains what we see, and numerous predictions of the theory have been repeatedly verified. Macroevolution has been directly observed. Even many creationists now admit the fact of new species, genera, and sometimes families. And since God Himself says that the earth brought forth living things, it seems odd for a proclaimed Christian do deny abiogenesis. Do you trust God's account of creation or do you think creationism has adequate evidence to overthrow that?
 
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