Pluto Challenge

[AV1611VET]

Trans-Neptunian objects? Huh, that works fine.

Imaging that!

They found objects in space beyond Neptune.

So they call Pluto "something beyond Neptune" so as to weaken any argument against demoting it.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Imaging that!

They found objects in space beyond Neptune.

So they call Pluto "something beyond Neptune" so as to weaken any argument against demoting it.

... But why? And again, this is you making the claim, not the IAU.

 

[Halbhh]

This thread is specifically for @AV1611VET since it's a topic he loves to bring up.

Pluto is demoted from full planetary status to dwarf planet.

It's still up in space, still going around the sun, the same as it always did since it formed all those millions of years ago.

How does demoting it from planetary status change anything about it?

Total random side topic unrelated to your topic mostly, but it is fun to mention to me personally -- if it turned out we discovered convincing evidence that Pluto was merely millions of years old,(instead of more like 4.6 billion), that really would be very remarkable and lead to huge amounts of effort to figure out how and why, and that would be a lot of fun, seriously. Now, I know perfectly well you meant just old, not specifically greater than 1 million and less than 10 million. So, this really is an unrelated side topic. There are so many surprises that do happen in astronomy, just constantly, where we find things unlike we expected, that it's endlessly interesting.

 

[Halbhh]

But "the host of heaven" is mentioned.

And that would include Pluto.

In other words, if God intended Pluto as a planet, then Pluto is a planet, and I am obligated to defend it as such.

And as for 9 not being mentioned, you have to take the Bible as a whole to get the full import of 9 in the Bible.

Interestingly, fact is that Pluto can't even possibly be seen without at least an high quality (modern) 5" (diameter of lens or mirror) telescope, and for practical purposes for amateurs, really an 10" telescope is more what it would take for the great majority of even people used to looking through telescopes.

Galileo's telescope was only a mere 1.5" diameter of lens.

So, just like you'd expect, even with tens of thousands of mostly amatuer astronomers looking constantly, Pluto was only discovered finally in 1930, with a 13" (and very high quality) telescope, after astronomers expected to find a 9th 'planet' due to the motions of Neptune and Uranus seeming to indicate there must be another planet interacting with them gravitationally.

So....think on it, a 'star' you can't even see until only in very modern times, after having advanced abilities to calculate gravitational orbital motion in precision, and having relatively advanced telescopes far, far, far, far more powerful than anything in the world until about 250 years ago.

In the late 1700s, German musician William Herschel and his sister Caroline began making large reflecting telescopes. With a mirror measuring 1.2 metres in diameter, Herschel's largest telescope (pictured) was an unwieldy instrument, requiring four servants to operate its wheels, ropes and pulleys. It remained the largest telescope in the world until the mid-nineteenth century.

Herschel scanned the heavens systematically and catalogued hundreds of nebulae and binary stars (in 1781, with a smaller telescope, he discovered that an object previously thought to be a star was in fact the planet Uranus).
The most important telescopes in history | New Scientist

 

[AV1611VET]

So....think on it, a 'star' you can't even see until only in very modern times, after having advanced abilities to calculate gravitational orbital motion in precision, and having relatively advanced telescopes far, far, far, far more powerful than anything in the world until about 250 years ago.

A couple of points I'd like to make though:

1. If God intended nine planets as a template for divine completion of His creation, then it wouldn't matter if we could see all nine of them or not. The angels could, and they would need this information as well.

2. God certainly didn't intend for us to know everything at once. That's why He hid "Easter eggs" in His creation; to be found when the time was right.

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

So the angels could see all nine of our planets; but it would take some time before we saw all nine of them.

My favorite example of God's "Easter eggs" is oil: embedded into the earth at creation, but not discovered until 600 BC, when the Chinese discovered it.

The angels knew it was there, but Adam didn't.

 

[Halbhh]

A couple of points I'd like to make though:

1. If God intended nine planets as a template for divine completion of His creation, then it wouldn't matter if we could see all nine of them or not. The angels could, and they would need this information as well.

2. God certainly didn't intend for us to know everything at once. That's why He hid "Easter eggs" in His creation; to be found when the time was right.

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

So the angels could see all nine of our planets; but it would take some time before we saw all nine of them.

My favorite example of God's "Easter eggs" is oil: embedded into the earth at creation, but not discovered until 600 BC, when the Chinese discovered it.

The angels knew it was there, but Adam didn't.

Interestingly, it is thought there may be another significant undiscovered planet:

Caltech researchers have found mathematical evidence suggesting there may be a "Planet X" deep in the solar system. This hypothetical Neptune-sized planet orbits our Sun in a highly elongated orbit far beyond Pluto. The object, which the researchers have nicknamed "Planet Nine," could have a mass about 10 times that of Earth and orbit about 20 times farther from the Sun on average than Neptune. It may take between 10,000 and 20,000 Earth years to make one full orbit around the Sun.

The announcement does not mean there is a new planet in our solar system. The existence of this distant world is only theoretical at this point and no direct observation of the object nicknamed "Planet 9" have been made. The mathematical prediction of a planet could explain the unique orbits of some smaller objects in the Kuiper Belt, a distant region of icy debris that extends far beyond the orbit of Neptune. Astronomers are now searching for the predicted planet.

In Depth
In January 2015, Caltech astronomers Konstantin Batygin and Mike Brown announced new research that provides evidence of a giant planet tracing an unusual, elongated orbit in the outer solar system. ...
(continues....)
In Depth | Hypothetical Planet X – NASA Solar System Exploration

 

[Petros2015]

Pluto is demoted from full planetary status to dwarf planet.

I stand with Pluto.

Ancient manuscripts CLEARLY document this as one of the 9 planets.

 

[AV1611VET]

Interestingly, it is thought there may be another significant undiscovered planet:

Out with the old [Pluto], in with the new [Planet X] I suppose.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

2. God certainly didn't intend for us to know everything at once. That's why He hid "Easter eggs" in His creation; to be found when the time was right.

Or the biggest "Heads, I'm right. Tails, you lose" things ever.

 

[AV1611VET]

Or the biggest "Heads, I'm right. Tails, you lose" things ever.

What?

Your remark doesn't fit what I said.

 

[Halbhh]

Or the biggest "Heads, I'm right. Tails, you lose" things ever.

There's basically no way to either prove that God definitely exists or prove that God definitely does not exist by simply looking at Nature.

(If there was a way, that would mean either that God made a mistake, or that the common Bible is false. In the Bible, God wants us to listen to Christ, His words, and respond as we will to what Christ says. He doesn't want us to just turn to Christ from only fear or pragmatic choice for self-interest without truly listening and trusting in Christ. So, Christ is the "Way". The only doorway that always will work for anyone that walks through in faith.)

Christ taught such things as:

"By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

What?

Your remark doesn't fit what I said.

Oh, it very much does.
If something isn't said in the Bible but known, it's one of your 'Easter eggs', so no matter what happens, you're right, even if the Bible 100% says nothing about a thing. Like the solar system having 9 planets.

 

[AV1611VET]

Oh, it very much does.
If something isn't said in the Bible but known, it's one of your 'Easter eggs', so no matter what happens, you're right, even if the Bible 100% says nothing about a thing. Like the solar system having 9 planets.

Believe it or not, I'm not going to be adamant about the solar system having just nine planets anymore.

This solar system has as many planets as God sees fit; but I can see a strong justification for just nine.

But what I am sparking about, is how Pluto got demoted.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Believe it or not, I'm not going to be adamant about the solar system having just nine planets anymore.

This solar system has as many planets as God sees fit; but I can see a strong justification for just nine.

But what I am sparking about, is how Pluto got demoted.

But to say that something is rigged, there also has to be a motive to why the vote needs to be rigged.

And even if the Pluto vote was rigged, the IAU is not some governing body or government agency with any actual impact on our lives, nor does it represent a totality of scientists in the world.

 

[Hans Blaster]

This thread is fascinating. Just like astronomers looking for missing planetary objects based on the gravitational anomalies of the known orbits (see Uranus, Pluto the ex-planet, and Planet 9) I can determine the behavior of the invisible objects in this thread by their interactions with the visible objects. And people say you can't identify dark things by their impact. Sheesh.

 

[AV1611VET]

But to say that something is rigged, there also has to be a motive to why the vote needs to be rigged.

I think that's a very good question.

WHY was the vote rigged?

To which I haven't a clue.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I think that's a very good question.

WHY was the vote rigged?

To which I haven't a clue.

Maybe it was rigged because someone knew it would annoy you...

 

[AV1611VET]

Maybe it was rigged because someone knew it would annoy you...

Now that's spooky!

 

[Astrid]

This thread is fascinating. Just like astronomers looking for missing planetary objects based on the gravitational anomalies of the known orbits (see Uranus, Pluto the ex-planet, and Planet 9) I can determine the behavior of the invisible objects in this thread by their interactions with the visible objects. And people say you can't identify dark things by their impact. Sheesh.

I can certainly recognize the presence of invisible posters
and identify them by their effect on a thread.

 

[Kylie]

2. God certainly didn't intend for us to know everything at once. That's why He hid "Easter eggs" in His creation; to be found when the time was right.

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

I'm amazed that you could think that going out and investigating reality to find out things about the world is a Biblical instruction given to us, but then you turn around and say that what we find from investigating reality is wrong. That's a classic example of cognitive dissonance.