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what is the evidence that universe is 13.7B years old?

AV1611VET

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This is the same kind of magical thinking absurdity that Marshall Applewhite would spout.
It is, huh?

Do you know the difference between magic and miracles?
chilehed said:
God could also have sent glittering alien spaceships to take up position above us ...
What do you think the Star of Bethlehem was, since it led the Wise Men to a specific street address, but no one else apparently could see it?
  1. a glittering alien spaceship
  2. a legitimate celestial object in space (comet, asteroid, other)
  3. a mental hologram
  4. other
I think it's #3, but for the record, do you lump everything in a file labeled: MAGIC?

If so, you're a credit to your diploma -- (but not God's).
 
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AV1611VET

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God could also have sent glittering alien spaceships to take up position above us like the Burning Man drone show, and there's as much evidence that he did that as there is for your worm holes idea ...
Just FYI, chilehed:
Maths has predicted wormholes, but for now these bridges through space-time remain hypothetical.

SOURCE
 
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Gene2memE

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Great popular science level articles from the late 1990s on what the minimum and maximum ages the universe could be:

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.94.13.6579

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.95.1.18

NASA page on how WMAP narrowed down the age calculation to 13.78 billion, +/- 59 million years
WMAP- Age of the Universe

Phil Plait's blog on the Planck satellite results, confirming NASA's findings but adding a little bit to the estimate of the age of the universe (shifting from back 13.77 to 13.79 billion years):
The Universe’s Baby Pictures Reveal It’s a Bit Older Than We Thought

Article on ground telescope observations, finding good agreement with WMAP & Planck results (less than 0.3% of a difference, or about a +/- of 41 million years):
Atacama Cosmology Telescope Reveals Universe is Nearly 14 Billion Years Old
 
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AV1611VET

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AV1611VET

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And I thought you were smart enough to understand the concept of comoving distance.
Nope.

And if you're talking about light moving in the opposite directions, then that still makes 47 billion light years.

Light has been moving in one direction for 47 billion years in a universe that's only 13.7 billion years old?

How'd that happen -- other than on paper?
 
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sjastro

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Nope.

And if you're talking about light moving in the opposite directions, then that still makes 47 billion light years.

Light has been moving in one direction for 47 billion years in a universe that's only 13.7 billion years old?

How'd that happen -- other than on paper?

You don't even have the vaguest idea of what comoving distance is which is 13.7 billion light years and how it differs from proper distance which is your 47 billion light year radial distance reference.
The value depends on the coordinate system being used and is explained in this math free version.

 
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AV1611VET

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You don't even have the vaguest idea of what comoving distance is which is 13.7 billion light years and how it differs from proper distance which is your 47 billion light year radial distance reference.
Did you think I was kidding, when I said, "Nope"?
sjastro said:
The value depends on the coordinate system being used ...
Here we go with the technoblab.

From the center of the universe to its known edge: Point A to Point B, 47 million light years away.

Simple as Pi.

Can you explain it or not?
sjastro said:
... and is explained in this math free version.
Sorry.

I'm not going to watch a ten-minute video that's just going to end up saying it looks good on paper, but not in a lab.

Funny how someone will demand an answer as to how light traveled from SN1987A in a YEC universe; then throw technoblab at us when we want a simple answer as to how light could have done the same thing in an OEC universe, isn't it?
 
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LightLoveHope

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I did find all your thoughts interesting. But to focus on this, which as to my understanding is still the strongest evidence in some way for an old universe. But maybe we cannot even begin to speak about what we think "old" means.

The idea that God should create light on its way is of course ridiculous. I cannot think that God should need to cover up his tracks.

However, oddly enough, going even further out, with the hubble space telescope, I read that they see now galaxies at a distance of 20B light years or something. And these are not baby galaxies but fully developed galaxies. So maybe the idea that looking far into space will also provide a view back in time, must take a hit.

There is a sentence in book of psalms, that God "stretches out the heavens". I think, some of my questions are
- is speed of light really as constant as we want it to be?
- how would one in scientific terms describe the stretching of the heavens? And could it be observable?

What everyone has to get very humble about, is all the theories etc. are based upon electromagnetic radiation hitting the earth and how it is interpreted. So red shift to mean distance travelled is a speculative idea. Or take the idea that light could start from a galaxy 100,000 light years away. Now as the universe expanded the distance between us and the travelling light increased faster than the light was travelling so that 100,000 light years becomes 25 billion light years. For this to be true we have to be moving away from the initial point of emission faster than the speed of light. But for the light to catch up with us, we have to have slowed down again.

Now the theories say it is impossible to travel faster than the speed of light, relative to another object. The excuse is space was created between us and the light, so we were not travelling through space, but space was coming into existence so the affect is we moved away beyond the speed of light. This sounds like an excuse for an impossible situation.

Worse still it is easy to say vast space was created between us, while we were not blown apart by the space growing across our bodies. The problem is there is no difference in space between that is occupied by matter and that occupied by a vacuum.

The problem with simplified mathematics, the approximate equations can make sense but when applied they fail to account for complexity and subtle differences.

And to cap it all, none of this matters. In our lifetimes we are never going to get to the nearest star.
And the forces involved are so vast even our fusion bombs are a grain of sand to the planet. It is like the search for intelligent life in outer space. All we see is a totally aggressive and destructive environment everywhere except within our atmosphere. We are currently the only unique stable environment that can support life. The more we look it seems the less likely we will find any alternatives. And why do people fund looking? Because they believe it must be there and they want to prove evolution ie a religion is real. I do not believe in evolution, but I believe God the creator did not tell us everything or limits what might be, but invites us to explore.

As Christians I would like to answer a different question. Why did God create the universe as we see it? There is something very profound going on here, to do with His vastness and our limitations.

Hitch Hikers guide to the galaxy had a weapon called the total perspective vortex, which was designed to destroy someone by showing them their insignificance compared to the universe. I would say part of knowing God is knowing this reality and knowing God gives us His value through Jesus, which takes us and makes us unbelievably blessed and valued and important because of Him. So love does matter, life is a beautiful expression of Gods heart.

God bless you
 
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PeterDona

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You don't even have the vaguest idea of what comoving distance is which is 13.7 billion light years and how it differs from proper distance which is your 47 billion light year radial distance reference.
The value depends on the coordinate system being used and is explained in this math free version.

I would like to make a little comment about the video. First off, when a video has 5.9 million views it means that at least a small portion of the earths population did find it interesting - or maybe simply that the american teachers association has made this video a compulsory watch at the beginning of every physics class.

For me, as a person who was fed all those ideas before I could start to think and investigate, and now having decided on another world view, it is interesting for selfreflection to see how many of the concepts by now I consider to be purely religious.
- Bing Bang is an impossible event
- nothing can travel faster than light speed except it did in that assumed fast expansion of the universe during the first second (not a pun).
- I can not take the age of the universe as a given
- the speaker's nerdy character simply looks like a person being so selfdefeating that we cannot think otherwise than to grant him the favor of initial trust - right?

So that is my selfreflection, but I would be hard pressed to think that the other 5.9 million viewers had the same experience
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Grace to you :)

For many years I have heard the story related, that scientists from different branches at one meeting came together to see if they could agree on the age of the universe, and that they actually agreed on an age of 13:7B years, with many lines of evidence supporting this.

Does someone in here have that reference? I would especially like to know, which are those lines of evidence that corroborate that age.

Thanks in advance, regards Peter

Do you mean "Does someone here have a keyboard by which they can google the answer ... ?" :dontcare:
 
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Astrid

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What everyone has to get very humble about, is all the theories etc. are based upon electromagnetic radiation hitting the earth and how it is interpreted. So red shift to mean distance travelled is a speculative idea. Or take the idea that light could start from a galaxy 100,000 light years away. Now as the universe expanded the distance between us and the travelling light increased faster than the light was travelling so that 100,000 light years becomes 25 billion light years. For this to be true we have to be moving away from the initial point of emission faster than the speed of light. But for the light to catch up with us, we have to have slowed down again.

Now the theories say it is impossible to travel faster than the speed of light, relative to another object. The excuse is space was created between us and the light, so we were not travelling through space, but space was coming into existence so the affect is we moved away beyond the speed of light. This sounds like an excuse for an impossible situation.

Worse still it is easy to say vast space was created between us, while we were not blown apart by the space growing across our bodies. The problem is there is no difference in space between that is occupied by matter and that occupied by a vacuum.

The problem with simplified mathematics, the approximate equations can make sense but when applied they fail to account for complexity and subtle differences.

And to cap it all, none of this matters. In our lifetimes we are never going to get to the nearest star.
And the forces involved are so vast even our fusion bombs are a grain of sand to the planet. It is like the search for intelligent life in outer space. All we see is a totally aggressive and destructive environment everywhere except within our atmosphere. We are currently the only unique stable environment that can support life. The more we look it seems the less likely we will find any alternatives. And why do people fund looking? Because they believe it must be there and they want to prove evolution ie a religion is real. I do not believe in evolution, but I believe God the creator did not tell us everything or limits what might be, but invites us to explore.

As Christians I would like to answer a different question. Why did God create the universe as we see it? There is something very profound going on here, to do with His vastness and our limitations.

Hitch Hikers guide to the galaxy had a weapon called the total perspective vortex, which was designed to destroy someone by showing them their insignificance compared to the universe. I would say part of knowing God is knowing this reality and knowing God gives us His value through Jesus, which takes us and makes us unbelievably blessed and valued and important because of Him. So love does matter, life is a beautiful expression of Gods heart.

God bless you

You might need to consider taking Clint's advice.
 
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PeterDona

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Do you mean "Does someone here have a keyboard by which they can google the answer ... ?" :dontcare:
If you can, that would be very interesting.
I was years ago intrigued by example the expansion of the age of the universe during the latest 200 years, and thought I could just google it but no. Maaybe I am just a creepy bad googler, so you should be welcome to demonstrate what I missed for so long :)

Urban Dictionary: Bad Googler
 
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AV1611VET

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You don't even have the vaguest idea of what comoving distance is which is 13.7 billion light years and how it differs from proper distance which is your 47 billion light year radial distance reference.
The value depends on the coordinate system being used and is explained in this math free version.
Okay ... I watched it in its entirety.

And for the record, I didn't understand 90% of what he said.

It's all Greek to me.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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If you can, that would be very interesting.
I was years ago intrigued by example the expansion of the age of the universe during the latest 200 years, and thought I could just google it but no. Maaybe I am just a creepy bad googler, so you should be welcome to demonstrate what I missed for so long :)

Urban Dictionary: Bad Googler

For what it's worth, I don't think that scientists have ever just come together in a 'single meeting' and determined the age of the universe. More generally, there have been various findings in physics over the past few hundred years, with certain precedents in Astronomy that lead the way for other scientists to rationally apply the principles being worked on. Usually, a scientist does his 'work' and others apply peer review in an ongoing enterprise over decades.

Are you wanting to know if there was, precisely, one single meeting upon which scientists everywhere then were inclined to believe the universe is 13.~ billion years old? Or, are you just wanting to know how in general they come by their measurements?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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If you can, that would be very interesting.
I was years ago intrigued by example the expansion of the age of the universe during the latest 200 years, and thought I could just google it but no. Maaybe I am just a creepy bad googler, so you should be welcome to demonstrate what I missed for so long :)

Urban Dictionary: Bad Googler
Just for grins, here's a couple of very general descriptions about the historical developments in the thinking of Astrophysicists and other scientists about the age of the universe ...

Imagine the Universe!

Age of the universe - Wikipedia
 
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AV1611VET

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For what it's worth, I don't think that scientists have ever just come together in a 'single meeting' and determined the age of the universe.
You can look at a candle and determine its rate of burn and, assuming a uniform rate, calculate when it will burn out; but you cannot look at a candle and tell how long it's been burning.

You can look at a river and determine its [pun] current [/pun] flow rate; but you can't tell how long it's been flowing.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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You can look at a candle and determine its rate of burn and, assuming a uniform rate, calculate when it will burn out; but you cannot look at a candle and tell how long it's been burning.

You can look at a river and determine its [pun] current [/pun] flow rate; but you can't tell how long it's been flowing.

What does that have to do with what I just said, bro?
 
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AV1611VET

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What does that have to do with what I just said, bro?
Cause and effect.

That is why scientists can't reach agreement.

Even using the uniformity principle, they can't determine when the universe started expanding.

That's why a lot of them use the +/- argument.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Cause and effect.

That is why scientists can't reach agreement.

Even using the uniformity principle, they can't determine when the universe started expanding.

That's why a lot of them use the +/- argument.

Likewise [and pardon my parody]...

That is why Christians can't reach agreement on the Age of either the Earth or the Universe.

And even using the non-uniformity principle, they can't determine when they'll agree about the meaning of the Bible.

That's why a lot of them resort to using the Inerrancy argument.

:D
 
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