Why were animals affected by the Fall?

[friend of]

Why do animals die? I mean why would animals who are incapable of moral judgment, be subjected to the Fall of Adam? Presumably they would have had an interminable lifespan like Adam and Eve before the fall. Why did a human decision affect the animal kingdom?

 

[BobRyan]

Gen 6:
6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. 10 And Noah begot three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.


Romans 8:
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the eagerly awaiting creation waits for the revealing of the sons and daughters of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body

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Sin and rebellion --- is cancer/death to creation and all living things subjected to it.

God spares Eden by kicking sinful man out of the garden of Eden at the fall of mankind in Gen 3. But the rest of creation on Earth was doomed to be the home of sinful mankind.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The sin of the first Adam put all of creation under the curse.

The crucifixion of the sinless Second Adam established an entirely new creation free from curse.

 

[Sheila Davis]

Why do animals die? I mean why would animals who are incapable of moral judgment, be subjected to the Fall of Adam? Presumably they would have had an interminable lifespan like Adam and Eve before the fall. Why did a human decision affect the animal kingdom?

Isn't it possible that animals have always died?
Mankind had access to the fruit of The Tree of Life, the Bible doesn't say animals did. And according to Genesis 3:22 the fruit from the tree of Life must have given instant healing, immortality, or incredibly long life, considering God put them out so that they wouldn't eat from it and live forever.

Isn't it possible the workings of man on Earth has drastically cut the lifespan of animals?

 

[com7fy8]

That's what I get, is that creation went down with Adam and Eve.

Why? Possibly, God decided that creation would stay at Adam and Eve's level of experience so they could relate with creation somehow. Or else, He might miraculously have them floating around with no experience of creation. If creation stayed in a spiritual which Adam and Eve could not experience . . . they would have had quite a life for themselves, just miraculously staying alive.

 

[Joined2krist]

The Serpent was possesed by satan. Perhaps, they became corrupt and subject to decay due to the presence of evil and its effect on them

 

[friend of]

As an aside, I don't think there were any animals hunting other animals in Eden before the Fall. There was no death, after all.

 

[Job 33:6]

Why do animals die? I mean why would animals who are incapable of moral judgment, be subjected to the Fall of Adam? Presumably they would have had an interminable lifespan like Adam and Eve before the fall. Why did a human decision affect the animal kingdom?

Scripture, according to theistic evolution, doesn't actually say that animals lived forever before the fall.

After the flood God says that all that moves is good to eat, but this was a common Hebrew literary structure that set the stage for the more specific ruling that the animals may not have bloodlife within them.

This video covers the topic pretty thoroughly.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Scripture, according to theistic evolution, doesn't actually say that animals lived forever before the fall.

After the flood God says that all that moves is good to eat, but this was a common Hebrew literary structure that set the stage for the more specific ruling that the animals may not have bloodlife within them.

This video covers the topic pretty thoroughly.

We don't know much about life before the Fall at all. Were Adam and Eve engaging in marital relations and being fruitful and multiplying or, as some would have it, they were quite modest and innocent of carnal knowledge which only came as a result of the Fall?

 

[Job 33:6]

We don't know much about life before the Fall at all. Were Adam and Eve engaging in marital relations and being fruitful and multiplying or, as some would have it, they were quite modest and innocent of carnal knowledge which only came as a result of the Fall?

Scripture doesn't describe any other men or women in the garden. The same can't be said for animals.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Scripture doesn't describe any other men or women in the garden. The same can't be said for animals.

The time in the garden seems to have been relatively brief. Although brief, it is possible that Eve had conceived prior to the Fall.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why do animals die? I mean why would animals who are incapable of moral judgment, be subjected to the Fall of Adam? Presumably they would have had an interminable lifespan like Adam and Eve before the fall. Why did a human decision affect the animal kingdom?

Biblically, the Fall means all of creation has been affected (infected?). We live in an entropic universe, a universe in which nothing lasts forever, where stars themselves die. All systems, organic and inorganic, break down. If left alone, our sun will one day run out of hydrogen to convert, and will swell up consuming all the inner planets of the solar system, including the Earth. And even further than that, if left alone, even atoms will cease being able to exist, everything decays, and eventually entropy wins--a vast empty dark universe without stars, galaxies, without matter, without even any photons left--just the cold empty void of truly nothing. The death of the universe will be a slow, nothing will survive, and there won't even be anything in it to remember that there used to be something. Truly, all of creation has been ravaged by sin and death.

The good news is that God has promised to be faithful to His creation, and will redeem and renew all creation.

So the Apostle writes in Romans 8 that all creation groans in labor pains longing for the freedom from death and decay. For the Day when Christ returns, the dead are raised, and God makes all things new.

-CryptoLuthean

 

[Job 33:6]

The time in the garden seems to have been relatively brief. Although brief, it is possible that Eve had conceived prior to the Fall.

That's not what scripture says. Genesis 3 describing the fall immediately follows Genesis 2. The Birth of Cain and Abel doesnt come to Genesis 4.

For what reason do you intend to read things into scripture that aren't described? What is your motive?

 

[TedT]

Why do animals die? I mean why would animals who are incapable of moral judgment, be subjected to the Fall of Adam?

All death and suffering are due to sin...period.

Where do you get the idea the animals are incapable of moral judgement? Remember Genesis 3:1 ? Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field that the LORD God had made. ? How can 'more crafty', ie, more cunning in evil, not imply that the animals were somewhat cunning in evil but the serpent had them all beat!!?? How can the animals be somewhat cunning in evil yet not be able to make moral judgements and choose sin?? Did GOD create evil animals before Adam's fall?

And just so you don't think this is a one verse aberration of a dearly held commitment to our Sunday School teachers,
Genesis 3:14 So the LORD God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and every beast of the field!

Cursed above must mean the livestock and every beast of the field were cursed also but not as heavily as the serpent. No innocent is under GOD's curse so this proves the animals must have made sinful moral choices.

So it seems we have to reconsider some old but probably wrong doctrines, eh? And just to continue to explore this problem of GOD creating sinful animals before the fall of Adam, let's look at Genesis 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time. 6 And the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will blot out man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—every man and beast and crawling creature and bird of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”

The method of destroying mankind for violence and wickedness extended also the sinful animals HE had created, — every man and beast and crawling creature and bird of the air, and they were a judged for their violent wickedness. Woooohh....

It seems like we have a real problem making all was very good in Gen 1:31 out to be a moral judgement about creation, eh?

The Serpent was possesed by satan. Perhaps, they became corrupt and subject to decay due to the presence of evil and its effect on them

Any new ideas about this now?

As an aside, I don't think there were any animals hunting other animals in Eden before the Fall. There was no death, after all.

Death is the wages for sin, not merely a condition of life. Before Adam ate, there was sin in the serpent who came to the garden to entice his friend Eve to disobey and there were sinful animals, so sinful they would get cursed to leave Eden and then again to be destroyed in the flood.

All this sin before Adam ate yet there was no death?? Not very likely, eh? The seeds in the fruit everyone ate obviously died when masticated and disolved by digestion. So no death was limited by the reality of life which must cause death to feed.

 

[TedT]

The sin of the first Adam put all of creation under the curse.

What curse? The curse of HIS death as judgement only, as the animals at least (and probably Adam and Eve too) were already sinful so they did not inherit Adam's sin.

 

[bbbbbbb]

That's not what scripture says. Genesis 3 describing the fall immediately follows Genesis 2. The Birth of Cain and Abel doesnt come to Genesis 4.

For what reason do you intend to read things into scripture that aren't described? What is your motive?

No motive at all. There is no timeline provided in the text. We simply do not know how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. It could have been a few days up to centuries for all we know.

 

[Carl Emerson]

What curse? The curse of HIS death as judgement only, as the animals at least (and probably Adam and Eve too) were already sinful so they did not inherit Adam's sin.

17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;

Cursed is the ground because of you;
With hard labor you shall eat from it
All the days of your life.
18 Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
Yet you shall eat the plants of the field;
19 By the sweat of your face
You shall eat bread,
Until you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

 

[Carl Emerson]

@TedT

How do you know the animals were sinful?

 

[Job 33:6]

No motive at all. There is no timeline provided in the text. We simply do not know how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. It could have been a few days up to centuries for all we know.

It's not about how long they were there, it's about what scripture says. It doesn't describe the birth of Cain and Abel until after the fall. There must be something influencing you to ponder this possibility. What could it be? What would you have to gain if it were true?

 

[bbbbbbb]

It's not about how long they were there, it's about what scripture says. It doesn't describe the birth of Cain and Abel until after the fall. There must be something influencing you to ponder this possibility. What could it be? What would you have to gain if it were true?

The event that led me to ponder this scenario was a presentation by a couple of Mormon "elders". Mormon belief is that God commanded Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply prior to the Fall, but the knowledge of how to be fruitful and multiply was not given to them, but was in the fruit of the forbidden tree of knowledge. Thus, Adam and Eve were in a quandary. To obey God in one commandment required them to disobey God in another commandment, so Eve chose to disobey by eating the fruit in order to obey God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply. When they ate, of course, they realized that they were naked and then covered themselves with fig leaves.

Of course there are serious theological flaws, not the least being a capricious God who demands a choice to disobey one commandment in order to obey another commandment.

If, however, Eve had conceived in the garden and subsequently bore Cain and Abel after the fall, then the Mormon theology is quite false, but the text does not provide any clue to what, if any, sexual activity they engaged in while in the garden.

The other curiosity, of course, is where Cain's wife came from. Logically, it would have to have been his sister, if Adam and Eve were the only couple alive. However, there is no record in the text regarding the origins of his wife.