Why people reject the reality of Hell

[David's Harp]

How so? The spirit is referred to as a form of energy, good is a direct analogy of positive as is bad being negative and Jesus himself talks of descending (hell) and ascending (heaven). I guarantee you can't prove me wrong using verses from the bible.

Can you prove yourself right by using verses from the Bible? I suspect not.

 

[Der Alte]

...

The one passage of Scripture addressing everlasting punishment by Jesus Christ, has a context and five conditions for the same.
Questions =
1. What are the conditions for "everlasting punishment": there are 5 ?
2. Why is the Master speaking of virgins (5 wise/ 5 unwise)?
3. Why two clean animals, rather than one clean & one unclean?

Wrong! Matt 25:1-12 never mentions ""everlasting punishment!"
The following verse affirms "eternal punishment"

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some mis/uninformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars, backed up by 2000 years +/- of continuous Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete words which occur in the KJV and to translate them correctly.

 

[FineLinen]

The one passage of Scripture addressing everlasting punishment by Jesus Christ, has a context and five conditions for the same.

Questions =

1. What are the conditions for "everlasting punishment": there are 5 ?

2. Why is the Master speaking of virgins (5 wise/ 5 unwise)?

3. Why two clean animals, rather than one clean & one unclean?

In an attempt to help you in your questions, let's take a look at what constitutes a clean & unclean animal in the Old Covenant

CLEAN AND UNCLEAN ANIMALS - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[Der Alte]

...

In an attempt to help you in your questions, let's take a look at what constitutes a clean & unclean animal in the Old Covenant
CLEAN AND UNCLEAN ANIMALS - JewishEncyclopedia.com

This is all somewhat interesting but the total requirements for non-Jewish Christians is listed twice in Acts 15 and again once in chapter 21.
Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context.

Acts of the apostles 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Acts of the apostles 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them,​

Why would Paul dispute with the men from Judea about gentiles being circumcised if he was going to tell gentiles later that they had to study Torah in the synagogues?

Acts of the apostles 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Acts of the apostles 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? ​

Did Paul say that circumcision and keeping the law was a yoke that even the Jews could not bear then later tell gentile Christians to go to synagogues and learn Torah, and keep the law? I don't think so.

Acts of the apostles 15:19-21
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.​

This is the first of three times that four, and only four, requirements for gentiles are given. No command to attend synagogues, keep the law and follow all the food laws.
This verse is saying only the gentiles have to be given special instructions, the Jews don't need it because they already have Moses being preached in the synagogues every Sabbath.

Acts of the apostles 15:24
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:​

Paul and the others gave no such command i.e. be circumcised and keep the law. No command for gentiles to go to synagogues or follow the dietary laws.

Acts of the apostles 15:28-29
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.​

The second time the four, and only four, requirements are given to the gentiles. No command to go to synagogues, keep the law and follow dietary laws.

Acts of the apostles 21:24-25
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, [keep the law vs. 25] save ONLY that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.​

The third time when the four, and only four, requirements are given to the gentiles. And again Paul says they gave no such command for gentiles to keep the law and no command to go to synagogues and no command to follow dietary laws..

 

[surreal_platypus]

Would that mean that when God is angry He is then a God of negative energy?

God bless.

Nope, because anger is a natural emotion and doesn't = sin. It does so happen that many humans sin when they are angry though.

 

[Lazarus Short]

It's like that on every forum, really. You get a couple of people that agree on a doctrine and if you oppose them they present what they think are "proofs" and when the "proofs" are addressed they ignore the address.

But that is really all they can do because they certainly can't address the Scriptures that speak plainly as to the error they have embraced.

Ahh, victory is bittersweet.




God bless.

Yes it is, and it reminds me of a small essay I wrote years ago which bears on the subject:

Blind Dogs


So often we see someone walk by a fenced yard with a dog in it. The dog usually watches the approach, and at some point begins to bark. The passerby goes on as he/she would have done anyway, but the dog keeps barking as long as his interest is occupied by the soon-retreating figure. Thus, his territorial instincts are satisfied, and he is proud to have once again protected his master’s property by his ferocious barking. The poor dog will do this all day, day in, day out, year in, year out, and for all of his natural life he will never stop to consider that all his barking was for nothing. In fact, the poor doggy is probably unable to ever think of such a thing. You might simply say, “What of it...? It’s just a dog.”

However, have you ever considered that we humans might have just such a blind spot in our existence – an aspect of our lives in which we respond to a stimulus or situation without ever realizing that our efforts do no good whatsoever? What could it be?? We don’t know! We have no way of knowing – if I knew, I could tell you, but I can’t tell you because neither you nor I could ever be aware of such a thing. There is no way to know, but I look at the dog, and I worry, as if I were sitting in my own blind spot. I look at pedestrian and dog, and I know the dog is irrelevant, at most, an annoyance. I look at situations moving through my life and my response to them, and wonder if all my efforts had any real effect, and if I too, am irrelevant. Are we, for all our self-deceptions, putting out efforts which amount to little more than useless yapping at things which move by their own logic on the other side of barriers which we can dimly see, but not move through? We can suspect, squinting dimly, but there is no way to be sure, and maybe that is why the dog barks so long…

DD 09-21-2011 revised 06-01-2019

 

[BobRyan]

The REALITY is that the Lake of Fire is not eternal, nor is "condemnation" to it eternal. It is age-long at the most

agreed.

, and designed to burn away the dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble of those cast in

No bible text applies that phrasing to the lake of fire, hell ... or judgment of the wicked at the resurrection etc.

The only place that language is used in 1 Cor 3 where it is the DOCTRINE, the TEACHING of a person that is being purged from the church and says nothing about the PERSON being dead, or being burned, or being in hell, or any such thing.

God describes Himself as a Refiner of Men - often as Fire and sometimes as Soap.

But he never says Hell or the Lake of Fire is a soap, refining, improving process for the persons cast in.

 

[Lazarus Short]

agreed.



No bible text applies that phrasing to the lake of fire, hell ... or judgment of the wicked at the resurrection etc.

The only place that language is used in 1 Cor 3 where it is the DOCTRINE, the TEACHING of a person that is being purged from the church and says nothing about the PERSON being dead, or being burned, or being in hell, or any such thing.



But he never says Hell or the Lake of Fire is a soap, refining, improving process for the persons cast in.

Keep reading - I connected a lot of dots to come to my conclusions.

 

[P1LGR1M]

The one passage of Scripture addressing everlasting punishment by Jesus Christ, has a context and five conditions for the same.

Questions =

1. What are the conditions for "everlasting punishment": there are 5 ?

2. Why is the Master speaking of virgins (5 wise/ 5 unwise)?

3. Why two clean animals, rather than one clean & one unclean?

Here is the condition made clear:


Matthew 25:45-46
King James Version

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


You are trying to take a parable that has as a first application the Millennial Kingdom (will money be relevant to the Eternal State?) and ignoring Christ's summation.

Just deal with the summation, Fine Linen.

Do you really not see that the Lord states without controversy that there will be those who go away into everlasting punishment and those that will have Life Eternal?

Why kick at the goads?


God bless.

 

[Jipsah]

Do you really not see that the Lord states without controversy that there will be those who go away into everlasting punishment and those that will have Life Eternal?

Then they both have "life eternal", then, don't they? Gotta be alive to be punished, right?

 

[P1LGR1M]

Then they both have "life eternal", then, don't they? Gotta be alive to be punished, right?

Not at all. That is why they are called dead when they are resurrected and cast into the Lake of Fire.

The only way to have Life Eternal is clearly presented in Scripture as believing in Jesus Christ.

Did you read the verse presented?

Matthew 25:45-46
King James Version

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Do you really not see two groups here taught by Christ Himself?

You are confusing life with eternal life. Do men have eternal life because they are physically alive, or must they be born again in order to have eternal life?

Please answer.


God bless.

 

[Jipsah]

The only way to have Life Eternal is clearly presented in Scripture as believing in Jesus Christ.

Except if one's to be punished eternally they have to be alive, don't they? No good flogging a dead sinner, is it?

Did you read the verse presented?

Sure, I'me well aware of it. But you assume both parties referred to there have eternal life, one in bliss and one in misery, right?

You are confusing life with eternal life. Do men have eternal life because they are physically alive, or must they be born again in order to have eternal life?Please answer.

So once again, dead never really means dead, isn't that correct? You believe that everyone has eternal life (the kind that lasts forever) by default. We simply say they're dead if we actually believe that they're alive and being tormented forever in hell.

So the wages of sin isn't actually death, since no one ever actually dies. And eternal life is simply the natural order, because everyone lives forever, for good or ill.

I think that's nonsense.

 

[FineLinen]

Take 2

Pilgrim are you asleep at the switch?

The one passage of Scripture addressing everlasting punishment by Jesus Christ, has a context and five conditions for the same.

Questions =

1. What are the conditions for "everlasting punishment": there are 5 ?

2. Why is the Master speaking of virgins (5 wise/ 5 unwise)?

3. Why two clean animals, rather than one clean & one unclean?

 

[FineLinen]

Take 2

Pilgrim are you asleep at the switch?

The one passage of Scripture addressing everlasting punishment by Jesus Christ, has a context and five conditions for the same.

Questions =

1. What are the conditions for "everlasting punishment": there are 5 ?

2. Why is the Master speaking of virgins (5 wise/ 5 unwise)?

3. Why two clean animals, rather than one clean & one unclean?

It is a wonderful thing the Scriptures are so clear. There evidently is no need for the Master to open our minds to understand the Scriptures.

"Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures."

Opened = dianoigō

To open by dividing or drawing asunder. to open thoroughly.

To open what had been closed.

To open the eyes and the ears.

 

[Der Alte]

...

Take 2
Pilgrim are you asleep at the switch?
The one passage of Scripture addressing everlasting punishment by Jesus Christ, has a context and five conditions for the same.
Questions =
1. What are the conditions for "everlasting punishment": there are 5 ?
2. Why is the Master speaking of virgins (5 wise/ 5 unwise)?
3. Why two clean animals, rather than one clean & one unclean?

Is this now a game show? Do we get a prize if we guess all the answers correctly? Strange, I thought this was a discussion forum where we share information and assist one another. When did it change so we have to answer some silly questions to get any information? If we go around feeding the hungry, giving water to the thirsty, visiting prisoners, assisting the sick etc. will we be saved, without doing anything else?

 

[P1LGR1M]

Yes it is, and it reminds me of a small essay I wrote years ago which bears on the subject:

Blind Dogs


So often we see someone walk by a fenced yard with a dog in it. The dog usually watches the approach, and at some point begins to bark. The passerby goes on as he/she would have done anyway, but the dog keeps barking as long as his interest is occupied by the soon-retreating figure. Thus, his territorial instincts are satisfied, and he is proud to have once again protected his master’s property by his ferocious barking. The poor dog will do this all day, day in, day out, year in, year out, and for all of his natural life he will never stop to consider that all his barking was for nothing. In fact, the poor doggy is probably unable to ever think of such a thing. You might simply say, “What of it...? It’s just a dog.”

However, have you ever considered that we humans might have just such a blind spot in our existence – an aspect of our lives in which we respond to a stimulus or situation without ever realizing that our efforts do no good whatsoever? What could it be?? We don’t know! We have no way of knowing – if I knew, I could tell you, but I can’t tell you because neither you nor I could ever be aware of such a thing. There is no way to know, but I look at the dog, and I worry, as if I were sitting in my own blind spot. I look at pedestrian and dog, and I know the dog is irrelevant, at most, an annoyance. I look at situations moving through my life and my response to them, and wonder if all my efforts had any real effect, and if I too, am irrelevant. Are we, for all our self-deceptions, putting out efforts which amount to little more than useless yapping at things which move by their own logic on the other side of barriers which we can dimly see, but not move through? We can suspect, squinting dimly, but there is no way to be sure, and maybe that is why the dog barks so long…

DD 09-21-2011 revised 06-01-2019

I actually think this is pretty good, but what does it have to do with the Scripture and points being presented?

Are you going to say no one can have an authoritative position of Bible Doctrine?

I know you aren't.

Scripture was given to us by God for the very reason that we should know His will. There are right positions and wrong positions. And it is true that no person is right about everything, but that doesn't mean someone isn't right concerning the Biblical Doctrine of Hell.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Except if one's to be punished eternally they have to be alive, don't they? No good flogging a dead sinner, is it?

Not according to Scripture.

Do you think, before you were born again—that you had life?

You would be in error to do so, because you were dead:


Romans 4:17
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1 Timothy 5:6
But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

Jude 1:12
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Revelation 3:1
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


In Scripture "death" is often the term used to speak of those who are in a state of separation from God. They can have physical life, or not.

The only Biblical Remedy for the death mankind is born into is receiving the Eternal Life that Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God died on the Cross to bestow.

That you are not familiar with this teaching of Scripture is rather obvious, so again, did you have life before being baptized into Christ? Or were you dead?

Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Sure, I'me well aware of it. But you assume both parties referred to there have eternal life, one in bliss and one in misery, right?

At no time in either of the two threads I have been involved in, or in any other thread on any forum I have ever been to have I ever said that those who go into Everlasting Punishment/Torment/Judgment have Eternal Life.

It is because you have no clue as to what it means to be either alive or dead in a Biblical Context that you make such ridiculous statements.

And that is just typical tactics for those who cannot support their views with a Biblical Basis.

So let me introduce to a Biblical Principle that is not open for debate: you were dead when you were born into this world. Why? Because you had not yet received Eternal Life through union with God. That union begins when we are baptized into Christ, and until then men are—dead.


John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


So read the verses given you in the previous post. This should be enough for you to get an idea of what "death" means, and why it is important to place its usage in the context it is given in.


Continued...

 

[Lazarus Short]

I actually think this is pretty good, but what does it have to do with the Scripture and points being presented?

Are you going to say no one can have an authoritative position of Bible Doctrine?

I know you aren't.

Scripture was given to us by God for the very reason that we should know His will. There are right positions and wrong positions. And it is true that no person is right about everything, but that doesn't mean someone isn't right concerning the Biblical Doctrine of Hell.

God bless.

The essay was meant to be a stand-alone, without direct connection to exclusively Christian issues. It is about how we react to things. It really has more to do with www forum dynamics than the doctrine discussed there. I hope that helps.

 

[P1LGR1M]

So once again, dead never really means dead, isn't that correct?

Only in your limited understanding of what Scripture teaches, as well as false arguments you think support the personal philosophies you present.

You believe that everyone has eternal life (the kind that lasts forever) by default.

What I believe has been presented, and that you do not include my views in your rant speaks volumes about how you approach Doctrinal Debate.

There is a difference between all people having an everlasting condition and all people having Eternal Life.

Again, you really need to familiarize yourself with Bible Doctrine, then you will not need to impose what you want your antagonists to believe into your rants.

So here is another glimpse of why you were dead before being born again:


John 6:47-53
King James Version

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.


As I consistently teach in every post I have made, we see here that it is believing in Christ (which is consistently taught throughout the New Testament) is how one receives Eternal Life. Here, Christ states has everlasting life, not "will receive everlasting life if they are good enough to pass through the Day of Judgment."


49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.


Did Christ think the people needed to know that Moses and those of Israel in the wilderness were physically dead?

No. He is not speaking of physical death, He is speaking about the difference between receiving Eternal Life through union with God as opposed to man's natural condition—which is a condition of death.

Death is separation, and all men are born separated from God.


50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.


When The Son of God came from Heaven it was for the purpose of bestowing Eternal Life to those who were dead.

We know physical life and death is not in view because we know that people that are baptized into Christ still die physically, yet they are said never to perish. Because they receive Eternal Life which the Lord and the Apostles contrast with physical life.


51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

What is the bread that He gave?

His flesh.

His death on the Cross.

That is the only means for Eternal Life.


52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


No man has life in the context of Eternal Life apart from believing in Christ.

Again, I ask: did you have life prior to being born again?


Continued...