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The bible root of denominational divisions

Xeno.of.athens

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Within the very broad church of Protestantism (viewed as a single entity in the abstract) there are at least many dozens of denominations and many thousands of independent churches. This leads to the question, "why are there so many separated churches?".

In brief the answer appears to be the separate development of theologies based on independent interpretations of the Holy Scriptures**. That is to say, it comes down to Sola Scriptura* in practise rather than in theory. In practise sola scriptura means each person or group of persons ought to be able to interpret scripture for themselves applying reasonable rules of interpretation.

The rules of interpretation are derived from the practise of interpreting other documents, such as histories, poems, songs, other religious texts, and so on. In theory the scriptures are thought to be clear (perspicuous) and consistent. That is the theory but the practise is different.

In practise there appears to be ambiguity in the text of scripture and even a consistent application of the allegedly reasonable rules of interpretation does not resolve the ambiguity. And ambiguity leads to differences in interpretation. And differences in interpretation leads to differences in theological emphasis which leads to different doctrines. And different doctrines can lead to divisions that separate one group from another.

The divisions within Protestantism arose as soon as Protestantism itself arose. From the very beginning there were differences and divisions. The broad divisions that arose then persist to our own time. The Lutheran and Lutheran like churches differ from the Anabaptist and Anabaptist like churches which in turn differ from the Zwinglian and Zwinglian like churches, Calvinist and Calvinist like churches, Anglican and Anglican like churches, Baptist and Baptist like, Quaker and Quaker like, and so on through several dozen groupings.

So if this approach, that is to say if Sola Scriptura*, is sound and true then why are there so many denominations and independent churches in the broad abstract grouping that is regarded as Protestant?

Is Sola Scriptura the root cause of divisions among the churches which adhere to it as a founding principle?

* Sola Scriptura implies both the perspicuity and the consistency of the holy scriptures which implies that there is one message and one truth taught by the holy scriptures and that truth is discoverable through a reasonable interpretation of the Holy Scriptures taking into account the history of the scriptures, the way it was understood in ancient times and in the ancient cultures in which were composed. And the traditions that were present as the underlying interpretive framework of the languages in which the holy scriptures were composed.

** Holy Scripture is for Protestants the 66 books counted as canonical and present in the KJV (for example) and a number of Apocryphal books that are variously regarded as either valuable for teaching Christians good conduct and manners to live by, or as pseudepigraphical works that are of little value, and several views in between these two.
 
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Philip_B

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** Holy Scripture is for Protestants the 66 books counted as canonical and present in the KJV (for example) and a number of Apocryphal books that are variously regarded as either valuable for teaching Christians good conduct and manners to live by, or as pseudepigraphical works that are of little value, and several views in between these two.
That is not how the KJV was first published, and any KJV with 66 Books is some sort of abbreviated version.

The Second Cambridge Company, translated the Apocrypha: John Duport, William Branthwaite, Jeremiah Radcliffe, Samuel Ward, Andrew Downes, John Bois, Robert Ward, Thomas Bilson, Richard Bancroft

King James Version - Wikipedia
 
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Chris35

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But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

My guess is everyone has lost their way.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

My guess is everyone has lost their way.
Do you think that verse implies that every Christian is lead by the Holy Spirit to correctly interpret the scriptures, or at least can be if the Christian is faithful?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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That is not how the KJV was first published, and any KJV with 66 Books is some sort of abbreviated version.

The Second Cambridge Company, translated the Apocrypha: John Duport, William Branthwaite, Jeremiah Radcliffe, Samuel Ward, Andrew Downes, John Bois, Robert Ward, Thomas Bilson, Richard Bancroft

King James Version - Wikipedia
Yes, I know. The KJV wasn't quite as Protestant as current protestant bibles can be. I guess a lot of doctrinal water has gone under the bridge since 1611 and people have developed their ideas further and maybe solidified their 66 book canon a bit more firmly.
 
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Chris35

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Do you think that verse implies that every Christian is lead by the Holy Spirit to correctly interpret the scriptures, or at least can be if the Christian is faithful?

I believe it is one way to test if your in the faith or not, if these things arent happening in your life, then there is something wrong in your relationship with God, or you dont have one at all.

At which point, we need to start asking ourself whats wrong, and start seeking God in our life.
 
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bling

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Within the very broad church of Protestantism (viewed as a single entity in the abstract) there are at least many dozens of denominations and many thousands of independent churches. This leads to the question, "why are there so many separated churches?".

In brief the answer appears to be the separate development of theologies based on independent interpretations of the Holy Scriptures**. That is to say, it comes down to Sola Scriptura* in practise rather than in theory. In practise sola scriptura means each person or group of persons ought to be able to interpret scripture form themselves applying reasonable rules of interpretation.

The rules of interpretation are derived from the practise of interpreting other documents, such as histories, poems, songs, other religious texts, and so on. In theory the scriptures are thought to be clear (perspicuous) and consistent. That is the theory but the practise is different.

In practise there appears to be ambiguity in the text of scripture and even a consistent application of the allegedly reasonable rules of interpretation does not resolve the ambiguity. And ambiguity leads to differences in interpretation. And differences in interpretation leads to differences in theological emphasis which leads to different doctrines. And different doctrines can lead to divisions that separate one group from another.

The divisions within Protestantism arose as soon as Protestantism itself arose. From the very beginning there were differences and divisions. The broad divisions that arose then persist to our own time. The Lutheran and Lutheran like churches differ from the Anabaptist and Anabaptist like churches which in turn differ from the Zwinglian and Zwinglian like churches, Calvinist and Calvinist like churches, Anglican and Anglican like churches, Baptist and Baptist like, Quaker and Quaker like, and so on through several dozen groupings.

So if this approach, that is to say if Sola Scriptura*, is sound and true then why are there so many denominations and independent churches in the broad abstract grouping that is regarded as Protestant?

Is Sola Scriptura the root cause of divisions among the churches which adhere to it as a founding principle?

* Sola Scriptura implies both the perspicuity and the consistency of the holy scriptures which implies that there is one message and one truth taught by the holy scriptures and that truth is discoverable through a reasonable interpretation of the Holy Scriptures taking into account the history of the scriptures, the way it was understood in ancient times and in the ancient cultures in which were composed. And the traditions that were present as the underlying interpretive framework of the languages in which the holy scriptures were composed.

** Holy Scripture is for Protestants the 66 books counted as canonical and present in the KJV (for example) and a number of Apocryphal books that are variously regarded as either valuable for teaching Christians good conduct and manners to live by, or as pseudepigraphical works that are of little value, and several views in between these two.
Do not blame us having all these denominations on scripture.

Do the Catholic Church’s doctrinal problems down through the ages share some of the blame?

The reason for “splits” is always due to: selfishness, greed, desire for the praises of men, power, fame, impatience, wealth, lack of persecution and not listening to God.

What were those Judaizing teachers wanting, by trying to divide the Gentile churches up? (Money)

In Communist China the unregistered Christian Church is not divide and has grown to an estimated 175 million from less than a million, but why have they not divided since they virtually only have the Bible to work with (other religious books have always been outlawed under communism), the Bible was allowed and the Communist even printed about 100 million copies.

For the most part the “highest” position in the unregistered church today is unpaid house leader or unpaid elder house leader. If you wanted to try to start a meg church you would be sent to prison (even some house church leader will spend some time in prison).

I have to admit these stand-alone house churches had help to keep their doctrine consistent, which came from God through the Communist Party. The Communist, many years ago, publicly listed what a Christian Church could not teach to be registered like: Christ is the son of God, Christ was crucified because of our sins, Communion, adult believer immersion baptism, preaching on heaven and hell, and many more as you can imagine, this long list of what the Registered church could not teach, became the list of what the unregistered church did teach, making them consistent throughout China.

Persecution and lack of money, really helps to keep out hypocrites and the greedy.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Do the Catholic Church’s doctrinal problems down through the ages share some of the blame?
No, not for the current multiplicity of denominations and independent churches within Protestantism because Catholics do not adhere to Sola Scriptura and Catholic doctrinal debates end when the Church decides the matter and proclaims the decision. Of course there is no guarantee that any specific individual will accept the Church's decision, so Catholicism does not teach that every Catholic Christian is always obedient to the teaching of Christ as it is taught by the Catholic Church.

But I do think that at the time of the Protestant revolt the Catholic Church had a lot of disciplinary problems and some really poorly enunciated doctrines and theological opinions that were not reformed until after the Protestant revolt had happened. In a sense the revolt of the protestants pushed the Catholic Church to assess and reassess its pastoral care, education in theology for priests and bishops, and numerous practises that were effectively corrupted uses of doctrine and moral teaching. The Catholic Church acknowledges that she has been distressed by heresies all through history, even from the first days of her existence while the twelve Apostles chosen by the Lord Jesus Christ were still on Earth to guide and teach. It is a sad fact of history that even when Paul and Peter and James and John and the rest were living the Church was distressed by heresies.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The reason for “splits” is always due to: selfishness, greed, desire for the praises of men, power, fame, impatience, wealth, lack of persecution and not listening to God.
I would agree with you but for the implication in your comment that every Protestant group exists because of some serious faults of character in its founders or current members.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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In Communist China the unregistered Christian Church is not divide and has grown to an estimated 175 million from less than a million, but why have they not divided since they virtually only have the Bible to work with (other religious books have always been outlawed under communism), the Bible was allowed and the Communist even printed about 100 million copies.
I think that you may be idealising the underground Christians in China. But I do agree that persecution does make all other matters recede into the background until the persecution comes to an end.
 
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Chris35

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The reason for “splits” is always due to: selfishness, greed, desire for the praises of men, power, fame, impatience, wealth, lack of persecution and not listening to God.

There is another reason.
When someone comes to the knowledge of the truth, they can no longer abide in a church that does not speak truth, and a new denomination starts.

Essentially what you end up with is also, bits and pieces of truth in some denoms, and the cycle repeats.

However i am sure, whoever truly seeks truth and God; will be lead to them, if anything the amount of denoms and churches should tell you that there is something wrong, and perhaps that you dont have the truth.

At which point it should make you cry out to God for truth, and start seeking him.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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However i am sure, whoever truly seeks truth and God; will be lead to them, if anything the amount of denoms and churches should tell you that there is something wrong.

At which point it should make you cry out to God for truth, and start seeking him.
Where do you expect one will land if they do this? If they seek God for the truth and receive it where will they fellowship? Is there a church, denomination, or group in which they can abide without feeling compelled to separate from them because of errors in their teaching or practises?
 
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Hawkins

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The topic is rather exaggerated. There's not much actual difference between the so-called thousands of denominations. They have just several major differences. In the end, true churches are governed by the faith statement mentioned in Apostles' Creed. Without being governed by the Apostles' Creed, those are heresies instead of legit denominations.

The situation is so because multiple denominations save more. Imaging that without Protestants but only Catholics exist, half of this world's Christians may have been turned to atheists. Those rejected Catholic church may have no place to go. Protestant churches are thus needed to maximize the reaching out of Christianity.

Just as prophesied,
Daniel 12
4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.


We divide in our era simply because we treasure more on knowledge gain. The 7 billion humans on earth can disagree with each other in terms of how the Bible content shall be interpreted. Plus we, as today's human being, are not actually that close to God. Let me give you a reference. In 30s of last century, possibly there were only 1% humans can get to nudity such as erotic movies and photos. Today possibly the opposite, in a modern society there may be only 1% or less people never got in touch with nudity.

This means today's humans are much farther away from God than before. Plus the term "knowledge" in the NRSV version means "evil". It's a gain of evil along with the gain of knowledge. The bottom line is thus set. You can vary in terms of knowledge, but not the message of salvation which is governed by God's Church on earth through the faith statement described in the Apostles' Creed. If the salvation message is contaminated, the "denomination" no longer has the power to save. It is thus becoming a heresy.

In short, multiple denominations work in our era for more to be saved. How divided we are as a result of knowledge gain (and evil gains as well) is expected and prophesied long before.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The topic is rather exaggerated. There's not much actual difference between the so-called thousands of denominations.
Wars have been fought over the differences, many lives were spent. Persecution rose and dissipated because of those differences. Lutherans, Catholics, and Calvinists systematically sought out Anabaptists to kill them if they didn't recant. So how can you say of them that there was "not much actual difference"?

Baptism, the Lord's supper, church Government, Predestination, human freedom and freedom of the human will are among the differences. The nature of the atonement, the extent of it, the way of sharing in it are among the differences. These are not minor differences they strike deep into the heart of Protestant beliefs about salvation, scripture, sacraments, grace.
 
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Chris35

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Where do you expect one will land if they do this? If they seek God for the truth and receive it where will they fellowship? Is there a church, denomination, or group in which they can abide without feeling compelled to separate from them because of errors in their teaching or practises?

One would eventually find themself in a two way, loving relationship with God. They would be wherever God would lead them to be. They could very well be in an incorrect denom, to help a handful of people who are seeking God.

They live for Jesus and go wherever he asks.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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One would eventually find themself in a two way, loving relationship with God. They would be wherever God would lead them to be. They could very well be in an incorrect denom, to help a handful of people who are seeking God.

They live for Jesus and go wherever he asks.
Is this your experience of Christ or an ideal you believe exists but have not obtained yet?
 
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bling

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There is another reason.
When someone comes to the knowledge of the truth, they can no longer abide in a church that does not speak truth, and a new denomination starts.

Essentially what you end up with is also, bits and pieces of truth in some denoms, and the cycle repeats.

However i am sure, whoever truly seeks truth and God; will be lead to them, if anything the amount of denoms and churches should tell you that there is something wrong, and perhaps that you dont have the truth.

At which point it should make you cry out to God for truth, and start seeking him.
Severe persecutions really helps people resolve differences quickly, no one wants to loss a fellow soldier for Christ.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Severe persecutions really helps people resolve differences quickly, no one wants to loss a fellow soldier for Christ.
While it is true that under persecution Christians unite for safety and for defence it is also true that this thread is not about persecution. It's about the bible (protestant bible with 66 allegedly canonical books and some number of additional books that are called , by protestants, apocrypha) being the source of divisions among Protestants because Protestants start their bible interpretation with sola scriptura.
 
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bling

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While it is true that under persecution Christians unite for safety and for defence it is also true that this thread is not about persecution. It's about the bible (protestant bible with 66 allegedly canonical books and some number of additional books that are called , by protestants, apocrypha) being the source of divisions among Protestants because Protestants start their bible interpretation with sola scriptura.
What I see and IMO there is hypocrisy in all large denominations including the Catholic Church. People discover this hypocrisy and look to other groups. It is easy to point out the weaknesses in another group and the other group can point out the weaknesses in your group. You can flip and point to verses taken out of context and prove almost anything.

Can we agree that any doctrine we come up with has to agree with the true interpretation of scripture?

The indwelling Holy Spirit knows the true interpretation of scripture, so how to we tap into His knowledge?

What I personally have found: if I truly need to know what a verse is saying the Spirit will help me find the answer, but let me emphasize: “Need to know”.

There is lots of verses I do not need to take the time to know, because I have much bigger needs and knowing will not help me, help others. Verses that would help me in becoming more like Christ and would help me to truly help others. If I want to know what a verse says to: win an argument, write a book to sell, put someone down, make me look good, or just so I can learn something, the Spirit is not going to help me. I have to pray a lot, fast, study, wait for the Spirit’s help, and discuss my ideas with others, I do not pick up a book or commentary by some dead author to get an answer, but later might check out what others say.

Most “Christians” do not study scripture, so they do not know if what they are being taught is correct or not, but is check out what they are being taught part of their responsibility?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Can we agree that any doctrine we come up with has to agree with the true interpretation of scripture?
No, some doctrine has its roots in Apostolic Tradition and not in the sacred scriptures (73 canonical books, as per Catholic Tradition). And it is always problematic to discern "the true interpretation of scripture" as the many denominations and independent churches of Protestantism attests.
 
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