Statements About Evolution

AV1611VET

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A contempt of science, knowledge and intelligence at large.
That's funny.

Solomon says it's atheists who are that way.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
 
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AV1611VET

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chilehed

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Actually, I haven't seen many creationists object to your "Science can take a hike". Their silence is deafening. It illustrates that creationism is fundamentally anti science, and actually anti knowledge, anti intelligence
No, it just indicates that we've stopped wasting breath trying to talk sense to him. And that we (at least, I) don't want to distract from the actual purpose of this thread.

The universe has a creator, it was created billions of years ago, and the Creator saw fit to create us through evolutionary processes. None of this contradicts the Bible in any way.

I've often wondered at the incoherence of his reasoning. At one time I thought that he might be a bot, but perhaps his interest in Timothy Leary sheds some light on that.
 
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AV1611VET

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Actually, I haven't seen many creationists object to your "Science can take a hike". Their silence is deafening. It illustrates that creationism is fundamentally anti science, and actually anti knowledge, anti intelligence.
No, it just indicates that we've stopped wasting breath trying to talk sense to him.
He needs to hang around a little more, doesn't he?
chilehed said:
The universe has a creator, it was created billions of years ago, and the Creator saw fit to create us through evolutionary processes. None of this contradicts the Bible in any way.
Is that your version of "talking sense" to a literal six-day creationist?

Here ... I'll let God "talk sense" to you ... in Writing:

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.


Notice God "hallowed" the sabbath day?
 
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Frank Robert

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But I have the feeling it is SCIENCE that has to extend the hand first, if they want to shake hands.
Another missed point. Science requires a testable hypotheses. All you need to do is to present your belief in a testable hypothesis and you will welcomed.
 
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AV1611VET

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All you need to do is to present your belief in a testable hypothesis and you will welcomed.
Ya -- you're not saying anything new.

Matthew 27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
 
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Frank Robert

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Ya -- you're not saying anything new.
If you already knew how to be welcomed, why did you ask the question?

To be fair, creationists, in general, do appear convinced that science should vacate the scientific method in deference to their religious beliefs.
 
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Estrid

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If you already knew how to be welcomed, why did you ask the question?

To be fair, creationists, in general, do appear convinced that science should vacate the scientific method in deference to their religious beliefs.
We have plenty of problems and issues in
China, but religious cant from the dark ages
interfering with science isn't one of them.
 
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AV1611VET

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We have plenty of problems and issues in China, but religious cant from the dark ages interfering with science isn't one of them.
Could this be why?
In reports of countries with the strongest anti-Christian persecution, China was ranked by the Open Doors organisation in 2019 as the 27th most severe country and in 2020 as 23rd most severe. Religious practices are still often tightly controlled by government authorities. Chinese children in Mainland China are permitted to be involved with officially sanctioned Christian meetings through the Three-Self Patriotic Movement or the Catholic Patriotic Association. In early January 2018, Chinese authorities in Shanxi province demolished a church, which created a wave of fear among the Christians.

SOURCE
 
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Kylie

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Yes, I agree with even whole species being unable to survive their environment.

Evolution predicts that there will be times when entire species will die out, but that's not the point I am making right now.

So, you've agreed that there are variations among the animals in a population.

You've also agreed that these variations have a genetic basis.

You've also agreed that these variations can be passed from parent to offspring.

And you've agreed that these variations can influence the survival of the individual who possesses them.

Statement 5: If an animal has some variation that helps it survive, then it will likely have a longer life, and thus, it will have more opportunities to reproduce. For example, if it is a member of a species that reproduces once a year and it has a variation that helps it survive an extra year, then it will have an extra chance to reproduce, and an individual without this variation has a lower chance of having that extra chance of reproducing.

Do you agree with this?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Evolution predicts that there will be times when entire species will die out, but that's not the point I am making right now.

So, you've agreed that there are variations among the animals in a population.

You've also agreed that these variations have a genetic basis.

You've also agreed that these variations can be passed from parent to offspring.

And you've agreed that these variations can influence the survival of the individual who possesses them.

Statement 5: If an animal has some variation that helps it survive, then it will likely have a longer life, and thus, it will have more opportunities to reproduce. For example, if it is a member of a species that reproduces once a year and it has a variation that helps it survive an extra year, then it will have an extra chance to reproduce, and an individual without this variation has a lower chance of having that extra chance of reproducing.

Do you agree with this?
Provided, of course, that this variation is genetically reproducible and/or the individual possessing of this variation is not sterile or otherwise unlikely/incapable of reproducing, of course.

BTW, in your general statements of what I agree with, don't forget my caveats. Not that you mean to do this in your understandable wish for brevity, but generalizations can mislead.
 
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Kylie

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Provided, of course, that this variation is genetically reproducible and/or the individual possessing of this variation is not sterile or otherwise unlikely/incapable of reproducing, of course.

Well, evolution requires reproduction, so naturally we are talking about traits that do not render the holders of such variations sterile.

And while there are some traits that come about through the actions of the environment, many traits do have a significant genetic component, so it's still a valid line of reason in the vast majority of cases.

BTW, in your general statements of what I agree with, don't forget my caveats. Not that you mean to do this in your understandable wish for brevity, but generalizations can mislead.

So far your caveats have mostly been about very specialized situations, so not really applicable to evolution in a general sense. Also, the caveats you've presented (such as the one in post 3) have been based on what you admit to be your limited understanding of how it all works.

In any case...

You've agreed that there are variations among the animals in a population.

You've also agreed that these variations have a genetic basis.

You've also agreed that these variations can be passed from parent to offspring.

You've agreed that these variations can influence the survival of the individual who possesses them.

And you've agreed that individuals who have traits that influence their survival in a positive way (ie, helping them live longer) are more likely to produce more offspring than average, and those individuals who have traits that influence their survival in a negative way (ie, making them more susceptible to predators or disease) are more likely to produce fewer offspring than average.

Statement 6: If an individual has some genetic trait (as in statement 2) that gives it an advantage (as in statement 4), then it can pass that trait on to the offspring it produces (as in statement 3). And since a beneficial trait is likely to result in the individual with that trait producing more offspring (as in statement 5), beneficial traits have a greater chance of being spread than a harmful trait. So beneficial traits will spread more than harmful traits.

Do you agree with this?
 
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Kylie

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What you haven't said is that if you believe this properly: you will experience the beginning of a longer Evolution, in this life.

I'm not calling you anything, but your approach is deceptive, if not for greater freedom for all.

The chance that Evolution will be exhausted in this lifetime is slim, but by the same token, the reality that you will be more of a target for what you believe is trustworthy is the same reality Christ already faced (believing that would be wise as well).

That is not how evolution works at all. You have been told REPEATEDLY that individuals don't evolve. Populations evolve over time. Your ideas about evolution are completely wrong.
 
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Mark Quayle

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@Gottservant said: "What you haven't said is that if you believe this properly: you will experience the beginning of a longer Evolution, in this life.

I'm not calling you anything, but your approach is deceptive, if not for greater freedom for all.

The chance that Evolution will be exhausted in this lifetime is slim, but by the same token, the reality that you will be more of a target for what you believe is trustworthy is the same reality Christ already faced (believing that would be wise as well)."


That is not how evolution works at all. You have been told REPEATEDLY that individuals don't evolve. Populations evolve over time. Your ideas about evolution are completely wrong.

Yet, you continually refer to individuals as the WAY the populations evolve. Irrelevant?

You keep making these claims to which I must agree or disagree, concerning individuals, and when I agree that it is so with SOME of them, you declare it is about populations.

Well, evolution requires reproduction, so naturally we are talking about traits that do not render the holders of such variations sterile.

And while there are some traits that come about through the actions of the environment, many traits do have a significant genetic component, so it's still a valid line of reason in the vast majority of cases.

You have not shown it is valid for "the vast majority of cases."

So far your caveats have mostly been about very specialized situations, so not really applicable to evolution in a general sense. Also, the caveats you've presented (such as the one in post 3) have been based on what you admit to be your limited understanding of how it all works.

So you can't discard my caveats simply because I am ignorant, if you want to convince me. It's ok with me if you deal with them later, but when you make generalizations, like to say that since the reproducible beneficially endowed genetics of an individual is more likely to survive and reproduce like offspring, you have only made assertions concerning how relatively often this happens.

You've also agreed that these variations have a genetic basis.

As far as I know, beneficial variations CAN have an already existing within-the-species genetic basis, which, granted, is not to say that 'new' or even mutated variations can't be beneficial, but I have no reason to believe that new ones ever happen, nor any reason to believe that beneficial mutations are often reproducible.

You've also agreed that these variations can be passed from parent to offspring.

Do you see the generalization there? Not saying you are wrong, just saying that what I understand to happen rarely, if beneficial, if mutated or new genetics, if reproducible, has not been shown to me valid as a generalization, such as you present.

You've agreed that these variations can influence the survival of the individual who possesses them.

—or the non-survival. You make a positive out of what I see as mostly negative. But yes, it CAN happen in a positive way.

And you've agreed that individuals who have traits that influence their survival in a positive way (ie, helping them live longer) are more likely to produce more offspring than average, and those individuals who have traits that influence their survival in a negative way (ie, making them more susceptible to predators or disease) are more likely to produce fewer offspring than average.

I should think that positive traits, that are not already within-the-species —i.e. positive traits that are by 'new' genetics or by mutated genetics— aren't often readily reproducible. Sterility, or bred out by cross-breeding.

Statement 6: If an individual has some genetic trait (as in statement 2) that gives it an advantage (as in statement 4), then it can pass that trait on to the offspring it produces (as in statement 3). And since a beneficial trait is likely to result in the individual with that trait producing more offspring (as in statement 5), beneficial traits have a greater chance of being spread than a harmful trait. So beneficial traits will spread more than harmful traits.

Do you agree with this?

"then it [might] pass that trait on to the offspring [if it produces offspring]." But I don't know that that individual will produce offspring; it has not been shown me. Are we still talking about within-the-species traits, or mutations?

But it does make sense to me that beneficial traits are more easily spread than harmful traits that are by mutation. I also agree that individuals inheriting mostly harmful traits tend to die more easily than those with mostly beneficial traits. But I can't agree with the generalization that beneficial mutated traits will more likely produce offspring that will pass that gene down to successive generations, than those with harmful extant traits will reproduce. At least, not until it is shown me.
 
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Kylie

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Yet, you continually refer to individuals as the WAY the populations evolve. Irrelevant?

You keep making these claims to which I must agree or disagree, concerning individuals, and when I agree that it is so with SOME of them, you declare it is about populations.

Evolution is the way the offspring are different from their parents. If the changes trend in one particular direction, then the population, over many generations, evolves.

For example, giraffes evolved long necks. We can imagine jumping in a time machine and travelling back in time to see a population of early giraffes that had much shorter necks. In that POPULATION, some of the INDIVIDUALS would have had necks slightly longer than average, and some of the INDIVIDUALS would have had necks that were slightly shorter than average. The INDIVIDUALS with the longer necks would have had an easier time getting food, since they could reach higher into the trees and thus get leaves that were beyond the reach of the individuals with shorter necks. So, the longer-necked individuals would have been more likely to survive because they had access to a food source that shorter necked individuals didn't have.

So, the INDIVIDUALS with the longer necks would have been able to produce more offspring than the shorter necked individuals, and the genes that produced a slightly longer than average neck would have spread throughout the POPULATION. So, if we jump in our time machine and travel ahead to see what this POPULATION is like after ten generations have passed, we'd see that the genes for the slightly longer than average neck are now in many if not all of the INDIVIDUALS. The POPULATION has EVOLVED to have a slightly longer neck than it did when we first saw them.

So individuals don't evolve themselves. If we took one of these early giraffes and could keep it alive forever, it would never get the longer neck. It's genes would never change. It could not evolve. Because evolution is how the INDIVIDUALS are different from their parents. But it's all the individuals in the population, because the genes spread through the population.

You have not shown it is valid for "the vast majority of cases."

There are two main factors that influence the traits that an organism has. The first is genetic and the second is environmental. If you have two members of a population that live together (say, two zebra in the same herd), then they are facing the same environmental factors and any difference between them is likely to be more genetic in nature than environmental.

So you can't discard my caveats simply because I am ignorant, if you want to convince me. It's ok with me if you deal with them later, but when you make generalizations, like to say that since the reproducible beneficially endowed genetics of an individual is more likely to survive and reproduce like offspring, you have only made assertions concerning how relatively often this happens.

Okay, but also try to see this from my point of view as well. If I was trying to explain to you how airplanes fly, I could tell you about how the curved surface of the wing produces lift, but if you start asking my why the wings have those little turned up bits at the very end, it's only going to introduce a lot of complicated aerodynamic theory which just isn't applicable to a "beginner's guide" sort of thing. I'm trying to show you the broad strokes here, and while your caveats may be valid, any explanation of them would require a more in-depth understanding. I'm trying to do the basic stuff first. Then you'll have the understanding required to look at the caveats.

As far as I know, beneficial variations CAN have an already existing within-the-species genetic basis, which, granted, is not to say that 'new' or even mutated variations can't be beneficial, but I have no reason to believe that new ones ever happen, nor any reason to believe that beneficial mutations are often reproducible.

New variations happen due to mutation, which is basically copying errors in the DNA when cells divide. If an individual has such a change, this mutation in their genetic sequence can be passed to offspring since the offspring gets half of its DNA from each parent.

For example, I have a daughter. She got half her DNA from me. If I had a mutation, and that mutation was in the half of her DNA that she got from me, then that mutation was passed to her, and she has it too.

Do you see the generalization there? Not saying you are wrong, just saying that what I understand to happen rarely, if beneficial, if mutated or new genetics, if reproducible, has not been shown to me valid as a generalization, such as you present.

I'm trying to introduce concepts here. It's difficult to understand how these concepts work within the framework of evolution before one understands ALL the concepts of evolution.

—or the non-survival. You make a positive out of what I see as mostly negative. But yes, it CAN happen in a positive way.

You are correct. When I said they can influence the survival, I meant "how well the individual survives," and that could indeed be a reduction in its chances of survival as you said.

I should think that positive traits, that are not already within-the-species —i.e. positive traits that are by 'new' genetics or by mutated genetics— aren't often readily reproducible. Sterility, or bred out by cross-breeding.

These traits aren't necessarily completely new traits. Often they are simply variations on what is already there. Completely new traits - like a horse being born with wings - just don't happen because the change in the DNA required for this kind of thing is absolutely huge, and when you make large changes, it's much more likely that you are going to end up with something that doesn't work.

Think of it this way:

If you are standing on the footpath (sidewalk in America), and you had to randomly move to a different part of the footpath, would you want to move a large distance or a small distance? If you randomly moved a large distance, say a mile, you could end up anywhere. Inside a building, on a road. You can't predict where. But if you randomly moved a smaller distance, say a foot, you are much more likely to stay on the path. And if you moved a very small amount, like an inch, you're almost certain to remain on the path.

Likewise, if there's a large change in the DNA when it gets copied into an offspring, then a large change is probably just going to end up with an unviable embryo. But a small change has a pretty decent chance of survival, because a small change is going to keep it close to something that works already (specifically, the parents).

"then it [might] pass that trait on to the offspring [if it produces offspring]." But I don't know that that individual will produce offspring; it has not been shown me. Are we still talking about within-the-species traits, or mutations?

Most species have a natural drive to produce offspring. Without reproduction, the genetic line dies out completely and there is no evolution.

And this stuff of "within-the-species traits" and "mutations" makes it sound like you think a mutation is something like that horse born with wings stuff. It's not. As I've said, most mutations are very small changes to what's already there, since larger changes tend to result in unviable embryos.

But it does make sense to me that beneficial traits are more easily spread than harmful traits that are by mutation. I also agree that individuals inheriting mostly harmful traits tend to die more easily than those with mostly beneficial traits. But I can't agree with the generalization that beneficial mutated traits will more likely produce offspring that will pass that gene down to successive generations, than those with harmful extant traits will reproduce. At least, not until it is shown me.

The simple answer is that the individuals with the beneficial traits will be likely to produce more offspring since they are probably going to live longer due precisely to the beneficial traits they have. A longer life means more breeding opportunities.
 
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Estrid

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Evolution is the way the offspring are different from their parents. If the changes trend in one particular direction, then the population, over many generations, evolves.

For example, giraffes evolved long necks. We can imagine jumping in a time machine and travelling back in time to see a population of early giraffes that had much shorter necks. In that POPULATION, some of the INDIVIDUALS would have had necks slightly longer than average, and some of the INDIVIDUALS would have had necks that were slightly shorter than average. The INDIVIDUALS with the longer necks would have had an easier time getting food, since they could reach higher into the trees and thus get leaves that were beyond the reach of the individuals with shorter necks. So, the longer-necked individuals would have been more likely to survive because they had access to a food source that shorter necked individuals didn't have.

So, the INDIVIDUALS with the longer necks would have been able to produce more offspring than the shorter necked individuals, and the genes that produced a slightly longer than average neck would have spread throughout the POPULATION. So, if we jump in our time machine and travel ahead to see what this POPULATION is like after ten generations have passed, we'd see that the genes for the slightly longer than average neck are now in many if not all of the INDIVIDUALS. The POPULATION has EVOLVED to have a slightly longer neck than it did when we first saw them.

So individuals don't evolve themselves. If we took one of these early giraffes and could keep it alive forever, it would never get the longer neck. It's genes would never change. It could not evolve. Because evolution is how the INDIVIDUALS are different from their parents. But it's all the individuals in the population, because the genes spread through the population.



There are two main factors that influence the traits that an organism has. The first is genetic and the second is environmental. If you have two members of a population that live together (say, two zebra in the same herd), then they are facing the same environmental factors and any difference between them is likely to be more genetic in nature than environmental.



Okay, but also try to see this from my point of view as well. If I was trying to explain to you how airplanes fly, I could tell you about how the curved surface of the wing produces lift, but if you start asking my why the wings have those little turned up bits at the very end, it's only going to introduce a lot of complicated aerodynamic theory which just isn't applicable to a "beginner's guide" sort of thing. I'm trying to show you the broad strokes here, and while your caveats may be valid, any explanation of them would require a more in-depth understanding. I'm trying to do the basic stuff first. Then you'll have the understanding required to look at the caveats.



New variations happen due to mutation, which is basically copying errors in the DNA when cells divide. If an individual has such a change, this mutation in their genetic sequence can be passed to offspring since the offspring gets half of its DNA from each parent.

For example, I have a daughter. She got half her DNA from me. If I had a mutation, and that mutation was in the half of her DNA that she got from me, then that mutation was passed to her, and she has it too.



I'm trying to introduce concepts here. It's difficult to understand how these concepts work within the framework of evolution before one understands ALL the concepts of evolution.



You are correct. When I said they can influence the survival, I meant "how well the individual survives," and that could indeed be a reduction in its chances of survival as you said.



These traits aren't necessarily completely new traits. Often they are simply variations on what is already there. Completely new traits - like a horse being born with wings - just don't happen because the change in the DNA required for this kind of thing is absolutely huge, and when you make large changes, it's much more likely that you are going to end up with something that doesn't work.

Think of it this way:

If you are standing on the footpath (sidewalk in America), and you had to randomly move to a different part of the footpath, would you want to move a large distance or a small distance? If you randomly moved a large distance, say a mile, you could end up anywhere. Inside a building, on a road. You can't predict where. But if you randomly moved a smaller distance, say a foot, you are much more likely to stay on the path. And if you moved a very small amount, like an inch, you're almost certain to remain on the path.

Likewise, if there's a large change in the DNA when it gets copied into an offspring, then a large change is probably just going to end up with an unviable embryo. But a small change has a pretty decent chance of survival, because a small change is going to keep it close to something that works already (specifically, the parents).



Most species have a natural drive to produce offspring. Without reproduction, the genetic line dies out completely and there is no evolution.

And this stuff of "within-the-species traits" and "mutations" makes it sound like you think a mutation is something like that horse born with wings stuff. It's not. As I've said, most mutations are very small changes to what's already there, since larger changes tend to result in unviable embryos.



The simple answer is that the individuals with the beneficial traits will be likely to produce more offspring since they are probably going to live longer due precisely to the beneficial traits they have. A longer life means more breeding opportunities.
That there caveat thing shalt render thy labour in vain.
 
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driewerf

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That's funny.

Solomon says it's atheists who are that way.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
That might be the beginning. But some of us advance past the mere beginning.
 
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AV1611VET

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That might be the beginning. But some of us advance past the mere beginning.
Have you?

If so, do you fear the LORD? or do you question His existence instead?
 
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