Saturday or Sunday Church?

[Leaf473]

Then apparently you are having a problem reading 1 Cor 8...

1 Cor 8:
9 But take care that this freedom of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone sees you, the one who has knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will his conscience, if he is weak, not be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through your knowledge the one who is weak is ruined, the brother or sister for whose sake Christ died. 12 And so, by sinning against the brothers and sisters and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to sin.

There is nothing in OT or NT about not eating meat vs only eating vegetables. The only "issue" mentioned about that is what we find in 1 Cor 8 and referenced in Rom 14 - in passing.

1. The "weak" in faith are the gentiles - fearful of meat offered to idols
2. The "strong' in faith are the Christian Jews who do not regard the idols as being anything at all.

1 Cor 8:
Now concerning food sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes one conceited, but love edifies people. 2 If anyone thinks that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.

4 Therefore, concerning the eating of food sacrificed to idols, we know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

7 However, not all people have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 Now food will not bring us close to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9 But take care that this freedom of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.

======================

I find it to be too obvious to miss.

I see lots of references to weak, nothing that necessarily means the weak are the gentiles.

The closest is 1 Corinthians 8:7. But it's still a question as to whether being accustomed to idols means being accustomed to worshiping them, or being accustomed to strenuously avoiding them.

 

[Leaf473]

Either the four laws listed in Acts 15:23-29 are an exhaustive list of everything that would ever be required of a mature Gentile believe or they are not, and the moment that you try to include other laws like the greatest two commandments is the moment that it can no longer be used as an exhaustive list to limit which laws Gentiles should follow. If we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth, so all of the other commandments are connected to the greatest two commandments, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that they all hang on the greatest two, so if you open the door for the greatest two commandments, then all of the other commandments come with them. Paul's problem with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles to obey what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow as if that were somehow a negative thing, but rather his problem was that they were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified. The Jerusalem Council were servants of God, so they shouldn't be interpreted as speaking against obeying Him, and they didn't have the authority to countermand God even if they had wanted to do that.

I think the list of four laws in Acts 15 probably is best considered as exhaustive **as it relates to the law of Moses**.

Christians follow commandments such as Love one another as I have loved you, which is actually a step higher than the second greatest commandment.

The person who loves that way will avoid those despicable behaviors that you gave as examples.

And the person who loves another that way also demonstrates their super-deep love for God, since that other person is made in the image of God.

 

[Soyeong]

Acts and the Epistles are unique in that they were written to New Covenant believers (i.e. us). If Acts and the Epistles are not clear on a subject, then look to the instruction Jesus gave to His disciples. After that you can look to the rest of the Gospels and the OT for guidance - just keep in mind they were written to a different set of people and do not override Acts and the Epistles.

There are stories and object lessons in the OT that don't have a NT equivalent. As you said, some of the NT cannot be understood without understanding the OT.

If someone does not correctly understand what the NT authors read, then it can be easy for them to misunderstand what they said. The NT authors quoted or alluded to the OT thousands of times in order to show that it supported what they were saying and to show that they hadn't departed form it, so they clearly saw their writings as deriving authority from the OT and the Epistles are essentially commentary on the OT. Christ quoted three times from Deuteronomy to defeat the temptations of Satan, so he certainly considered the writings of Moses to be authoritative. We are primarily followers of Christ, which is why we are called Christians, and followers of his disciples insofar as they teach us how to be followers of Christ. In 1 Corinthians 11:1, Paul said to be imitators of him as he is an imitator of Christ, so we should look first to the instructions that Jesus gave to his disciples, and there has never been a person other than Jesus whose teachings were more thoroughly rooted in the OT. Jesus commissioned his disciples to make disciples of all nations, teaching them everything that he taught them, and that primarily includes Jesus spending his ministry teaching them how to correctly live in accordance with the OT by word and by example, and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33), so at no point should the letters addressed to New Covenant believers be interpreted as being contrary to or overriding anything taught by Jesus or taught in the OT.

 

[Leaf473]

Messianic Judaism has grow in popularity since the 1960's, but there have always been Torah observant believes in Jesus. The roots of Messianic Judaism go back to how Christianity was during roughly the first 7-15 years after the resurrection of Jesus, so regardless of when there are people who started to popularize it, it was not invented by them. Furthermore, during the Messianic Age, the religion being practiced is a form of Judaism that believes in the Messiah, which Messianic Judaism.

Again, someone does not need to follow any particular teacher or be part of any particular denomination in order to recognize that followers of God should follow what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us. In addition, the important issue is not when something was first being taught, but whether or not it is true. There is much knowledge that has been gained in the past century that was not known since the dawn of man, but that doesn't call into question whether it is true.

There have always been Torah observant believers? Where were they in, say, 800, or 1200? Honest question. Jesus said his followers would be like a city set on a hill.

 

[Soyeong]

I think the list of four laws in Acts 15 probably is best considered as exhaustive **as it relates to the law of Moses**.

Christians follow commandments such as Love one another as I have loved you, which is actually a step higher than the second greatest commandment.

The person who loves that way will avoid those despicable behaviors that you gave as examples.

And the person who loves another that way also demonstrates their super-deep love for God, since that other person is made in the image of God.

The greatest two commandments are part of the Law of Moses (Deuteronomy 6:4-7, Leviticus 19:18), so if the four laws in Acts are exhaustive as it relates to the Law of Moses, then that excludes the greatest two commandments. In order to correctly obey the command to love our neighbor as ourselves we need to know how we should love ourselves, and the answer to that is that we should love ourselves as Christ loved us, which is also how we should love our neighbor, so Jesus was not raising the bar, but was teaching how to correctly obey. Furthermore, in order to correctly know how to love others as Christ loved us, we need to know how Christ loved us, and in Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so he loved us through his obedience to it. If a person who loves God and their neighbor will avoid all of those despicable behaviors that I gave as examples of what is commanded against in the Mosaic Law and so forth for everything else commanded against in it, then it is contradictory to think that Gentiles should obey the greatest two commandments, but not do things that are examples of how to correctly obey those commandments found in the Mosaic Law.

 

[BobRyan]

I see lots of references to weak, nothing that necessarily means the weak are the gentiles. .

Then you are skipping a lot of details in 1 Cor 8 and 10.

Now concerning food sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes one conceited, but love edifies people. 2 If anyone thinks that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.

4 Therefore, concerning the eating of food sacrificed to idols, we (Jews) know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Clearly the Bible teaches that thing to the Jews and is an irrefutable fact that both Jews and gentiles admit.



7 However, not all people have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

Clearly the GENTILES did not have that same heritage of Bible truth - as the Jews had.

1 Cor 10:18 Look at the people of Israel; are those who eat the sacrifices not partners in the altar? 19 What do I mean then? That food sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but I say that things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become partners with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons;

If you ignore enough Bible details almost any level of confusion can be "had".

 

[BobRyan]

The greatest two commandments are part of the Law of Moses (Deuteronomy 6:4-7, Leviticus 19:18), so if the four laws in Acts are exhaustive as it relates to the Law of Moses, then that excludes the greatest two commandments.

Good point... and this may be way soooo many of the non-Bible Sabbath scholarship do not make that short-sighted mistake in claiming that 5 sentences in Acts 15 became the "new downsized Bible" for Christian gentiles.

 

[Servus]

There have always been Torah observant believers? Where were they in, say, 800, or 1200? Honest question. Jesus said his followers would be like a city set on a hill.

If you look throughout the history of Christianity, you'll probably find there's been a minority fringe of Sabbatarians at least here and there.

 

[Servus]

Good point... and this may be way soooo many of the non-Bible Sabbath scholarship do not make that short-sighted mistake in claiming that 5 sentences in Acts 15 became the "new downsized Bible" for Christian gentiles.

Does that claim actually exist? If so who has actually made it as you worded it?

 

[Servus]

Then you are skipping a lot of details in 1 Cor 8 and 10.

Maybe the details you are always talking about, are details you come up with, which would explain why others are "skipping" them.

4 Therefore, concerning the eating of food sacrificed to idols, we (Jews) know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Clearly the Bible teaches that thing to the Jews and is an irrefutable fact that both Jews and gentiles admit.

You're going to have to back up saying that when Paul said "we" he meant "we Jews" rather than "we Christians". And by backing it up, I mean citing a source (outside of Amazing Facts et al) which corroborates it.

 

[Leaf473]

The greatest two commandments are part of the Law of Moses (Deuteronomy 6:4-7, Leviticus 19:18), so if the four laws in Acts are exhaustive as it relates to the Law of Moses, then that excludes the greatest two commandments. In order to correctly obey the command to love our neighbor as ourselves we need to know how we should love ourselves, and the answer to that is that we should love ourselves as Christ loved us, which is also how we should love our neighbor, so Jesus was not raising the bar, but was teaching how to correctly obey. Furthermore, in order to correctly know how to love others as Christ loved us, we need to know how Christ loved us, and in Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so he loved us through his obedience to it. If a person who loves God and their neighbor will avoid all of those despicable behaviors that I gave as examples of what is commanded against in the Mosaic Law and so forth for everything else commanded against in it, then it is contradictory to think that Gentiles should obey the greatest two commandments, but not do things that are examples of how to correctly obey those commandments found in the Mosaic Law.

Right... we are not under the law of Moses, that includes the two greatest commandments in the law of Moses.

I think Jesus was raising the bar. Jesus loves me more than I love myself. Maybe I should love myself more, I kind of don't think so.

I agree that the law gives us wisdom on how to show love for others. For example, we see that we ought to care for rape victims. However, today we don't show that care by requiring her to marry her rapist.

 

[Leaf473]

Then you are skipping a lot of details in 1 Cor 8 and 10.

Now concerning food sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes one conceited, but love edifies people. 2 If anyone thinks that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.

4 Therefore, concerning the eating of food sacrificed to idols, we (Jews) know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Clearly the Bible teaches that thing to the Jews and is an irrefutable fact that both Jews and gentiles admit.



7 However, not all people have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

Clearly the GENTILES did not have that same heritage of Bible truth - as the Jews had.

1 Cor 10:18 Look at the people of Israel; are those who eat the sacrifices not partners in the altar? 19 What do I mean then? That food sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but I say that things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become partners with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons;

If you ignore enough Bible details almost any level of confusion can be "had".

I'm sure there were also gentiles who came to realize that an idol was nothing.

 

[Leaf473]

If you look throughout the history of Christianity, you'll probably find there's been a minority fringe of Sabbatarians at least here and there.

Yes, I agree... some Sabbatarians. But Christians who believed they were to keep all of the law of Moses, as much as possible? I'm not aware of that. Maybe there were some.

 

[Leaf473]

Maybe the details you are always talking about, are details you come up with, which would explain why others are "skipping" them.

You're going to have to back up saying that when Paul said "we" he meant "we Jews" rather than "we Christians". And by backing it up, I mean citing a source (outside of Amazing Facts et al) which corroborates it.

That's a good point. In 1 Corinthians 12, Paul refers to himself and the believers in Corinth, Jew and gentile, as "we":
For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit.

 

[Servus]

Yes, I agree... some Sabbatarians. But Christians who believed they were to keep all of the law of Moses, as much as possible? I'm not aware of that. Maybe there were some.

Some little fringe here or there, but I'm sure that's about it.

I think maybe I heard someone claim that there was a significant bunch, and the Catholics executed all of them.

 

[Servus]

That's a good point. In 1 Corinthians 12, Paul refers to himself and the believers in Corinth, Jew and gentile, as "we":
For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit.

Definitely, that's why I'm asking for some solid citation.

As to the reasoning, Greek gentiles were the ones who had the idols in the first place. It would be the Jews who would be adverse to gentile idols and consider meat sacrificed to them as unclean.

 

[Leaf473]

Another passage that imo indicates a change in the knowledge level of gentile Christians, from Galatians 4

However at that time, not knowing God, you were in bondage to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, why do you turn back again to the weak and miserable elemental principles, to which you desire to be in bondage all over again?

 

[Soyeong]

Right... we are not under the law of Moses, that includes the two greatest commandments in the law of Moses.

There are 1,050 command in the NT, so it really makes sense to you to interpret Acts 15:19-21 as excluding over 99% of what is commanded in the NT, including most of what was taught by Jesus, including the Ten Commandments and the greatest two commandments, and that Gentiles shouldn't follow Jesus outside a handful of commands? Do you really think that Gentiles are free to do every last thing that God prohibited in the Bible that is not covered by those four commands?

I think Jesus was raising the bar. Jesus loves me more than I love myself. Maybe I should love myself more, I kind of don't think so.

In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from God's law, so Jesus did not do raise the bar, though he did teach how to correctly obey God's law as it was originally intended. Teaching to love one another as he loved us is still within the scope of loving our neighbor as ourselves.

I agree that the law gives us wisdom on how to show love for others. For example, we see that we ought to care for rape victims. However, today we don't show that care by requiring her to marry her rapist.

Do you think that God was wrong to command what He did? The Bible does not require a woman to marry her rapist. In Deuteronomy 22:25 the Hebrew word used for taking hold over her implies the use of force, so it is speaking about rape, but Deuteronomy 22:28 uses a different Hebrew word for taking hold of her that does not imply the use of force, so it is not speaking about rape.

 

[John Mullally]

Jesus commissioned his disciples to make disciples of all nations, teaching them everything that he taught them

In private conversations with His disciples, Jesus gave them instructions and commandments without referencing the mosaic law (which includes the 10 commandments). I believe that that was in preparation for their future ministry under the New Covenant. Think new wineskins.

While with the disciples His references to the OT were always made when and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33)

The old covenant with all its ceremonial laws (i.e. following the Mosaic laws in the Torah) is what Jesus refers to as the "old wineskins". The apostles in Acts 15:23-29 wrote that the Gentile believers who received the Holy Spirit upon acting on the simple gospel message did not also have to effectively become Jews by following a myriad of Mosaic law ceremonial ordinances.

From 1 Corinthians 16:2 which was written around 54 AD and several years after Acts 15, Gentile believers were congregating on Sunday. If it was important, Paul would have taken the opportunity to write that they should congregate on the Sabbath.

1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.​

 

[Soyeong]

Another passage that imo indicates a change in the knowledge level of gentile Christians, from Galatians 4

However at that time, not knowing God, you were in bondage to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, why do you turn back again to the weak and miserable elemental principles, to which you desire to be in bondage all over again?

Galatians 4:8-11 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

Paul addressed these verses to those who did not formerly know God, also known as former pagans. As such they were not formerly keeping God's holy days and thus he could not have been criticizing them for returning to them, so whatever he was referring to in verse 10 was within the context of paganism. This is another good example of how people have systematically taken verses that were only spoken against following the teaching of man and made them out to be speaking against obeying the commands of God.