To Seem, Rather Than To Be? (Trans Ideology)

[Kylie]

Actually I make assumptions about her based on biological facts! It is a fact that when it comes to mammals (humans included) only females give birth, male dogs or male humans do not.

You make assumptions about a person's gender identity based on biological facts that have nothing to do with gender identity.

 

[Ken-1122]

You make assumptions about a person's gender identity based on biological facts that have nothing to do with gender identity.

Umm; not quite. I make assumptions about a person's biology that have nothing to do with their gender identity

 

[Kylie]

Umm; not quite. I make assumptions about a person's biology that have nothing to do with their gender identity

He and She are references to a person's gender identity, not the shape of their genitals.

 

[Moral Orel]

The outcome does not have to be clear, just the information I believe necessary to meet my subjective standard of being absolutely certain.

Now you're using "absolutely certain" wrong. Stop redefining words to fit your ideology.

Do you do a complete investigations on everything that is important to you? I don't.

I put at least some effort into things that are important to me, you put no effort in, which means it doesn't matter.

Oh! Perhaps I've misunderstood you; so..... you don't believe trans men can get pregnant? If not, what's stopping them?

I'm not following your lie towards a red herring. You made it up; you didn't "misunderstand" me.

Again; to know means to be absolutely certain.

You're using "absolutely certain" wrong. Stop redefining words to fit your ideology.

It might be rude, but I won’t be offended unless I read her post.

Okay, so like I said, you made up a phony-bologna excuse to be rude and preach your ideology when acting the way you already always do (using pronouns that fit how people present) would be more polite.

 

[Moral Orel]

I think you're just upset because Ken rejects the use of preferred pronouns (trans ideology) and instead uses pronouns in the traditional sense. That doesn't mean he goes around intentionally trying to offend trans people.

Uhh, yeah, that's exactly what he says he's going to do. He'll use whatever pronoun you look like, but if he finds out you're trans, then he's going to make sure to use the one that is likely to upset you somehow. Maybe it offends someone, maybe it doesn't. But he's putting in effort to do something that might, instead of acting how he normally acts and doing something that won't. You don't have to buy into absolutely every ridiculous thing the extreme woke crowd is trying to sell to simply not care what pronouns you use. Putting forth minimal effort not to do things that might upset folk is a good thing.

For instance, sometimes I have dinner with my folks who are Christians, but I don't believe in god(s). They stop to pray before meals, so I sit there quietly and wait for them. Simply because I don't believe in god(s), you're saying it would be just fine and dandy for me to start talking and eating and telling them I don't believe in their fairy tales?

And a side note, let's get this out of the way because I saw you already comment on it earlier.

I am atheist because I do not believe there is a god.
I am not thus required to hold the belief that there is no god.
I am hard-agnostic because I believe it is impossible to ever know if there is a god. (A soft-agnostic would simply say that no one does know if there is a god)

I know you Christians hate atheist/agnostic used that way, but that's the way it is. I'm not going to argue with you over it.

 

[Ken-1122]

He and She are references to a person's gender identity, not the shape of their genitals.

How many times are you gonna keep repeating the same thing over and over again? Are you expecting a different response? Again; as far as I am concerned, gender and biology are the same. But for those of you who see them as different, I don't reference gender, just biology.

 

[Ken-1122]

Now you're using "absolutely certain" wrong. Stop redefining words to fit your ideology.

I’m not. There are theists out there who are absolutely certain their God is real. To be certain is completely subjective.

I put at least some effort into things that are important to me, you put no effort in,

That is untrue. You don’t know me enough to make such a claim

I'm not following your lie towards a red herring. You made it up; you didn't "misunderstand" me.

So what did I say that you disagreed with?

You're using "absolutely certain" wrong. Stop redefining words to fit your ideology.

I’ve provided an outside source (dictionary.com) that supports my claim; all you’ve done is make empty claims.

Okay, so like I said, you made up a phony-bologna excuse to be rude and preach your ideology when acting the way you already always do (using pronouns that fit how people present) would be more polite.

So I’m being rude and impolite now? Well I find it rude when people like you try to control the way people think, and control the way people speak.

 

[didactics]

Uhh, yeah, that's exactly what he says he's going to do. He'll use whatever pronoun you look like, but if he finds out you're trans, then he's going to make sure to use the one that is likely to upset you somehow. Maybe it offends someone, maybe it doesn't. But he's putting in effort to do something that might, instead of acting how he normally acts and doing something that won't. You don't have to buy into absolutely every ridiculous thing the extreme woke crowd is trying to sell to simply not care what pronouns you use. Putting forth minimal effort not to do things that might upset folk is a good thing.

For instance, sometimes I have dinner with my folks who are Christians, but I don't believe in god(s). They stop to pray before meals, so I sit there quietly and wait for them. Simply because I don't believe in god(s), you're saying it would be just fine and dandy for me to start talking and eating and telling them I don't believe in their fairy tales?

And a side note, let's get this out of the way because I saw you already comment on it earlier.

I am atheist because I do not believe there is a god.
I am not thus required to hold the belief that there is no god.
I am hard-agnostic because I believe it is impossible to ever know if there is a god. (A soft-agnostic would simply say that no one does know if there is a god)

I know you Christians hate atheist/agnostic used that way, but that's the way it is. I'm not going to argue with you over it.

OK, fair enough. I'm not going to pretend that I understand that line of reasoning, but I'll let it go. It would be better to have that discussion in another thread topic.


But as far as Ken not going along with woke beliefs (in regards to gender identity) neither do I. The only difference is that I take it even further by insisting that gender affirming care, as it relates to gender spectrum theory, (such as using hormone blockers and HRT and SRS in that case) is always wrong and never a good treatment option.

 

[Moral Orel]

But as far as Ken not going along with woke beliefs (in regards to gender identity) neither do I.

So you wouldn't see any problem with me not going along with my parent's beliefs when they pray over a meal and just act normally, right? It's fine to just go about my life as though there isn't something they care about, and that won't make me a jerk?

 

[didactics]

So you wouldn't see any problem with me not going along with my parent's beliefs when they pray over a meal and just act normally, right? It's fine to just go about my life as though there isn't something they care about, and that won't make me a jerk?

Well, that's a tough call. I know it's not a good idea to start in with religion or politics. If it is on your mind and you do want to talk about it, then maybe it would be best to start in with light conversation. [A prayer before meal and how to deal with that] It's up to you. If you're comfortable sitting at the table or wherever, then that's fine. Sometimes others may stand off to the side and wait.

 

[Moral Orel]

I’m not. There are theists out there who are absolutely certain their God is real. To be certain is completely subjective.

People claim to be absolutely certain about things all the time, and for the vast majority of things, they're wrong. You're saying that this is reasonable: "I'm absolutely certain X is true, but I might be wrong". That's ridiculous.

That is untrue. You don’t know me enough to make such a claim

I don't need to know you. You already said you don't investigate beyond reacting to a person's looks. So yeah, it is true that you don't put any effort whatsoever into determining a person's biology.

So what did I say that you disagreed with?

Disagree? You fabricated a claim and assigned it to me. That's a lie, it isn't a matter of "disagreement". Don't make stuff up. If you want to say, "You claim X" you better quote me claiming it.

I’ve provided an outside source (dictionary.com) that supports my claim; all you’ve done is make empty claims.

It doesn't support your claim, as I demonstrated.

The word you are looking for is "believe" not the word "know". You believe things you are convinced of, you don't know that they are true. That some things you feel you know does not in fact mean you know them.

So I’m being rude and impolite now?

Not right now. But how you say you plan to act if you find out you know a trans person, that is rude.

Well I find it rude when people like you try to control the way people think, and control the way people speak.

"Control"... Give me a break. I'm not talking about passing laws or dishing out penalties. All I've done is state my mind, which is that acting like you talk about acting is acting like a jerk. You want me to stop thinking that way, so you're arguing that my belief about your behavior is wrong. Stop trying to control me! Boohoo!

 

[Moral Orel]

Well, that's a tough call. I know it's not a good idea to start in with religion or politics. If it is on your mind and you do want to talk about it, then maybe it would be best to start in with light conversation. [A prayer before meal and how to deal with that] It's up to you. If you're comfortable sitting at the table or wherever, then that's fine. Sometimes others may stand off to the side and wait.

Why is it a tough call? I don't need to talk about it with them, I don't care if they do it. But I don't share their beliefs so I don't owe it to them to respect those beliefs in any way, right? I can just go about eating and talking while they do their thing and they can just deal, right?

Sure, sitting there quietly for a few moments is no skin off my back, but I'm under no moral obligation to care if they don't like it because I don't believe the things they do.

 

[Ken-1122]

So you wouldn't see any problem with me not going along with my parent's beliefs when they pray over a meal and just act normally, right? It's fine to just go about my life as though there isn't something they care about, and that won't make me a jerk?

Going along with your parents beliefs would be for you to participate in their prayer, not just remaining silent while they pray.

 

[Ken-1122]

People claim to be absolutely certain about things all the time, and for the vast majority of things, they're wrong. You're saying that this is reasonable: "I'm absolutely certain X is true, but I might be wrong". That's ridiculous.

No, they say “I’m absolutely certain X is true” then it turns out they were wrong.

I don't need to know you. You already said you don't investigate beyond reacting to a person's looks.

Judging a person according to their looks is all the investigation I need. It is unreasonable to expect anything more IMO

Disagree? You fabricated a claim and assigned it to me. That's a lie, it isn't a matter of "disagreement".

I said people like you believe men can get pregnant. Is that untrue?

It doesn't support your claim, as I demonstrated.

The word you are looking for is "believe" not the word "know". You believe things you are convinced of, you don't know that they are true. That some things you feel you know does not in fact mean you know them.

What have you demonstrated? All you've done is make empty claims! Again; dictioary.com defines “know” as “to perceive or understand as truth or fact”.
Just because you understand something to be true does not mean it is. IOW the dictionary agrees with me.

 

[didactics]

@Moral Orel @Ken-1122
Here’s a quote from a Ligonier devotional by Mark Ross, titled Blessing from the Lord [I thought it was fitting]

“Like all spiritual blessings, they must be received by faith. They are not mechanical sources of blessing to unbelieving people.”

 

[Moral Orel]

No, they say “I’m absolutely certain X is true” then it turns out they were wrong.

No, you said that you can know something and you might be wrong. You said that being absolutely certain is the same thing. So every time you say "I'm absolutely certain" you are also tacitly acknowledging "but I might be wrong." Ergo, you think "I'm absolutely certain X is true, but X might be false" is reasonable.

Judging a person according to their looks is all the investigation I need. It is unreasonable to expect anything more IMO

That's not an investigation, that's a reaction. I don't expect people to do more, I don't want people to do more. But doing more is evidence of finding importance. If it was important, you would do more. You don't do more, that's how I know it isn't important. You only claim it is so that you can excuse acting out if you discover a trans person.

I said people like you believe men can get pregnant. Is that untrue?

Yep, that's a lie. I never said any such thing, you assigned that claim to me, you lied. I can understand folk forgetting something I said, sure, we all forget stuff. But making stuff up that never happened, those are lies. Arguments that require lies are weak. If you can't make your point without making stuff up, you've already lost.

What have you demonstrated? All you've done is make empty claims! Again; dictioary.com defines “know” as “to perceive or understand as truth or fact”.
Just because you understand something to be true does not mean it is. IOW the dictionary agrees with me.

Then tell me the difference between a "belief" and "knowledge". Because your definition of "being convinced" is the definition of the word "belief". If your usage is apt, then "believe" and "know" are interchangeable synonyms.

 

[Moral Orel]

@Moral Orel @Ken-1122
Here’s a quote from a Ligonier devotional by Mark Ross, titled Blessing from the Lord [I thought it was fitting]

“Like all spiritual blessings, they must be received by faith. They are not mechanical sources of blessing to unbelieving people.”

I don't see the relevance.

I don't share their beliefs. I am under no moral obligation to act any different just because they don't like the way I act. This is the reasoning you and @Ken-1122 are giving me about insisting on your usage of pronouns that you think will probably bother folk. If they don't like me talking and eating during their short prayer, that's on them, right?

 

[Ken-1122]

No, you said that you can know something and you might be wrong.

True! But I never said you can know something and suspect you might be wrong.

But doing more is evidence of finding importance. If it was important, you would do more.

Untrue! Just because I find it important does not mean I will do more investigating. Don’t assume I am like you.

Yep, that's a lie. I never said any such thing, you assigned that claim to me, you lied.

I never lied. To lie is to make a claim you know is untrue. I was under the impression you believed trans men could get pregnant, so I did not lie.
Again; what is preventing trans men from getting pregnant?

Then tell me the difference between a "belief" and "knowledge".

To believe leaves room for doubt; to know does not.
Know vs Believe - What's the difference?

 

[Moral Orel]

Going along with your parents beliefs would be for you to participate in their prayer, not just remaining silent while they pray.

There are varying degrees I can go along. I can sit quietly. I can close my eyes. I can bow my head. I can fold my hands. Or some combination, or all of them. Or I can ignore what they're doing completely and act how I want. You're saying that because I don't share their beliefs, I can act normally (eating and talking) and that's fine and that's not rude.

 

[Ken-1122]

I don't see the relevance.

I don't share their beliefs. I am under no moral obligation to act any different just because they don't like the way I act. This is the reasoning you and @Ken-1122 are giving me about insisting on your usage of pronouns that you think will probably bother folk. If they don't like me talking and eating during their short prayer, that's on them, right?

What you are doing is the same. You don't participate in your parents beliefs by praying, I don't participate in transgender beliefs by using their idea of gender pronouns. For them to insist I engage in their delusions as you are suggesting, would be the same as your parents insisting you participate in their delusions by praying with them.