To Seem, Rather Than To Be? (Trans Ideology)

[Kylie]

What I'm saying is that public policy is better based on the needs of the great majority with appropriate exceptions made for the exceptions. "Hard cases make bad law."

Trans people with actual gender dysphoria are actually a very small minority, as I pointed out. And when they commit to the gender that fits, they want to be referred to by the gender they present. That's easy enough.

But the idea that someone with a beard and chest hair should be referred to as "she" and permitted into women's spaces is not going to stick as a lasting social value.

I'm not talking specifically about the people with gender dysphoria. I'm talking about ANYONE who says, "I was identified as X at birth, but now I identify as Y."

If a person with a penis says they identify as a woman, then it's really not that hard to respect them and use feminine pronouns. There's no need for public policy, just respect people's wishes.

 

[RDKirk]

I'm not talking specifically about the people with gender dysphoria. I'm talking about ANYONE who says, "I was identified as X at birth, but now I identify as Y."

If a person with a penis says they identify as a woman, then it's really not that hard to respect them and use feminine pronouns. There's no need for public policy, just respect people's wishes.

When nations like Canada require it upon pain of legal prosecution, then it is public policy. When the US military requires it of military members, then it is public policy. When a public gymnasium is required by city regulations to permit men with beards, chest hair, and penises into the women's locker room, that's public policy.

Don't pretend that we're just talking about respecting the wishes of individuals.

 

[Ken-1122]

You have not answered my question, you've merely deflected.

So I shall ask it again.

Why do you think that the shape of their reproductive organs/the internal arrangement of their bodies/their chromosomes is a better way to determine how to refer to them than what they actually tell you about their gender identity?

I noticed you changed it from your original question. Last time you only mentioned their sex organs, now you mention sex organs and a bit more.

The reason I feel their biology (reproductive organs, internal arrangement of their bodies, chromosomes, etc) is a better way to determine how to refer to someone than their gender identity is because the way they have redefined gender is something that is not real; it is more of a social construct based on what is going on inside of their heads. Biology is real, it is based on science, so (as I pointed out in post #380 the reason I use biology is because it cuts down on the confusion associated with the gender identity debacle.
And BTW; when I am speaking to someone, the only pronouns I use when referring to that person; trans or not is you or your. The only time I use masculine or feminine pronouns concerning that person is when I am talking about that person to someone else. At which time they are not a part of the conversation.

 

[Kylie]

When nations like Canada require it upon pain of legal prosecution, then it is public policy. When the US military requires it of military members, then it is public policy. When a public gymnasium is required by city regulations to permit men with beards, chest hair, and penises into the women's locker room, that's public policy.

Don't pretend that we're just talking about respecting the wishes of individuals.

This is nowhere near as complicated as you are making it.

If someone says, "Please refer to me using these pronouns," then you refer to them with those pronouns.

If a person says, "No, you were born with a penis so I will only use he/him pronouns, despite you requesting that I use she/her pronouns," then that person is treating them with disrespect. There has been a huge amount of evidence to show that this kind of treatment is harmful to trans people. So they make a law that says not to do it.

 

[Kylie]

I noticed you changed it from your original question. Last time you only mentioned their sex organs, now you mention sex organs and a bit more.

Yeah, because you were playing wordgames and deflecting rather than addressing the actual question I asked. So I rephrased it in a way that will (hopefully) stop you from playing word games and actually answer my question.

The reason I feel their biology (reproductive organs, internal arrangement of their bodies, chromosomes, etc) is a better way to determine how to refer to someone than their gender identity is because the way they have redefined gender is something that is not real; it is more of a social construct based on what is going on inside of their heads. Biology is real, it is based on science, so (as I pointed out in post #380 the reason I use biology is because it cuts down on the confusion associated with the gender identity debacle.
And BTW; when I am speaking to someone, the only pronouns I use when referring to that person; trans or not is you or your. The only time I use masculine or feminine pronouns concerning that person is when I am talking about that person to someone else. At which time they are not a part of the conversation.

It's just something that's happening in their heads, so it's not real?

HA!

My sense of self tells me I am a woman. It has nothing to do with what's between my legs.

And if it's not real because it's "just in their heads" does that mean you don't think depression is a real thing? Do you believe that mental illnesses don't exist?

 

[RDKirk]

This is nowhere near as complicated as you are making it.

If someone says, "Please refer to me using these pronouns," then you refer to them with those pronouns.

If a person says, "No, you were born with a penis so I will only use he/him pronouns, despite you requesting that I use she/her pronouns," then that person is treating them with disrespect. There has been a huge amount of evidence to show that this kind of treatment is harmful to trans people. So they make a law that says not to do it.

I'm going to refer to a person as they (notice, I said "they") present. They're going to have to at least meet me halfway. As I said, most persons who have transitioned want to be referred to as they present.

 

[Ken-1122]

My sense of self tells me I am a woman. It has nothing to do with what's between my legs.

What do you mean by “your sense of self”? Other than my sex organs, there is nothing about me that tells me I am a man. I am me, and because of my sex organs I’ve concluded I am a man. If I had female sex organs but felt as I do now, I would conclude I was a woman who is attracted to women and who prefer behaving in a way most men choose to behave, but I would still identify as a woman.

And if it's not real because it's "just in their heads" does that mean you don't think depression is a real thing? Do you believe that mental illnesses don't exist?

Of course it’s real to the person thinking about it! What I meant by not real is that it is a figment of their imagination; something that only exists in their heads.

 

[Moral Orel]

I don't have all of that information on somebody before determining if they are male or female

Oh, okay. Then you don't "refer to biology" because you don't actually know anything about their biology.

 

[Moral Orel]

What @Moral Orel is trying to do is draw you into the weeds and get you to question basic things.

I'm doing no such thing. Please don't make things up about me, k?

We know that humans were designed to have two arms for example.

Actually, I would expect that Ken (a fellow atheist) would agree with me that we are not designed.

 

[jayem]

Of course it’s real to the person thinking about it! What I meant by not real is that it is a figment of their imagination; something that only exists in their heads.

By the same token you can say bipolar disorder exists in an affected person's head. As do the voices heard by schizophrenics, and the panic attacks experienced by people with anxiety disorders. But this doesn't mean these aren't real neuropsychiatric conditions that require treatment. Gender dysphoria is the same. It's a disconnect between a patient's chromosomal/anatomic sex and the gender identity imprinted in his/her brain. It's a serious medical condition that causes tremendous distress and--if not treated--can lead to major depression and suicide. Since we don't as of yet have a way to reprogram the brain, gender reassignment (or, to be PC--gender confirmation) treatment of the body may be necessary.

BTW, gender dysphoria should only be managed by experienced specialists, preferably at medical school affiliated clinic. It's a lengthy process. First is a detailed psychiatric evaluation to ensure the diagnosis is correct. This may take months. (True gender dysphoria symptoms appear in early childhood. By 3 or 4 years old, these persons already know something is wrong with how their parents dress them and what toys they're expected to play with.) If the diagnosis is confirmed, they begin hormonal treatment with either androgens or estrogens. They're expected to dress as the opposite sex and fully assume that role. This may go on for up to a year. If everything is satisfactory after all this, only then do they have surgery. It's ignorant and pejorative to think that a guy who wants to be a woman just goes to a doctor and gets his man-parts cut off and breast implants put in.

 

[didactics]

I'm doing no such thing. Please don't make things up about me, k?


Actually, I would expect that Ken (a fellow atheist) would agree with me that we are not designed.

But the real question is why would you fully agree with him, as you leave room for the possibility of being created (if you're agnostic). But you’re right to point out that @Ken-1122 wouldn’t agree with me about that word “design.” However I think if you’re wanting to argue on the bases of evolution, you would agree that we’re not a transitioning species, right? I mean you believe we were once ape-like. My point is we have two arms and that’s the way it’s supposed to be.

 

[Ken-1122]

Oh, okay. Then you don't "refer to biology" because you don't actually know anything about their biology.

No. Going by their biology does not mean testing their estrogen and testosterone levels, 99.9 percent of the time, a person is going to present themselves according to their biology. Are there exceptions? Of course there is that .01%; but going by appearances usually results in me getting it right biologically speaking

 

[Ken-1122]

By the same token you can say bipolar disorder exists in an affected person's head. As do the voices heard by schizophrenics, and the panic attacks experienced by people with anxiety disorders. But this doesn't mean these aren't real neuropsychiatric conditions that require treatment. Gender dysphoria is the same.

I agree! There is a reason these are called mental disorders, and there is a reason we do not cater to such mental disorders. My grandfather suffered from dementia before he died, but this disorder was not treated by insisting everybody around him pretend as if his delusions were real; he was given medicine and treatment in an effort to bring him back to reality. Unfortunately Gender dysphoria seems to be treated by insisting everybody else caters to their delusions by pretending men can get pregnant.

 

[RDKirk]

I agree! There is a reason these are called mental disorders, and there is a reason we do not cater to such mental disorders. My grandfather suffered from dementia before he died, but this disorder was not treated by insisting everybody around him pretend as if his delusions were real; he was given medicine and treatment in an effort to bring him back to reality. Unfortunately Gender dysphoria seems to be treated by insisting everybody else caters to their delusions by pretending men can get pregnant.

There's a thing, though. Now, personally, I'm very sympathetic to actual gender dysphoria, just as I'm sympathetic to dementia (and I've had relatives who suffered seriously from that), as well as PTSD (and I've had relatives suffering from that as well. I've had relatives that suffered from both combat-induced PTSD and dementia...which is very sad).

But as I've pointed out, actual cases of gender dysphoria are extremely rare--rarer than cases of persons with six fingers. Here in these forums, after I asserted my sympathy for gender disphoria, a correspondent here, Silverbear (a trans ally) has strenuously pointed out that only 14% of persons who identify as trans actually suffer gender dysphoria. I'm not sure what Silverbear's strategy was to have made that point so strenuously, but there it is.

So, we start with an exceedingly small minority, and even of that minority, most are satisfied by changing their appearance to present rather convincingly as the gender they feel. Most of that exceedingly tiny minority work hard to blend in unnoticeably, and that includes voluntarily avoiding situations that would "out" them as trans. As I've said before, I'm perfectly willing to "call 'em as I see 'em."

We're talking, then, of a portion of an exceedingly small minority--people who don't even have gender dysphoria--attempting to exert control over all of society. This would be like the South Carolina Gullah people insisting that their creole must be incorporated into the English spoken by the entire US, and their particular cultural mannerisms as well...and government going along with it.

 

[jayem]

I agree! There is a reason these are called mental disorders, and there is a reason we do not cater to such mental disorders. My grandfather suffered from dementia before he died, but this disorder was not treated by insisting everybody around him pretend as if his delusions were real; he was given medicine and treatment in an effort to bring him back to reality. Unfortunately Gender dysphoria seems to be treated by insisting everybody else caters to their delusions by pretending men can get pregnant.

I guess I don’t know what you mean by “catering.” Is it catering to recognize that gender dysphoria is a real neurophysiological dysfunction that requires treatment? Why would this upset you?

 

[Moral Orel]

Going by their biology does not mean testing their estrogen and testosterone levels

Going by their biology requires knowing something about their biology. Since you don't know anything about their biology, you aren't going by their biology. You certainly aren't using science in any way,

99.9 percent of the time, a person is going to present themselves according to their biology

And there it is. You go by how they present. The presentation of a man and the presentation of a woman is entirely sociological, not biological. What you go by has nothing to do with biology. Don't pretend your usage of pronouns has the slightest thing to do with science.

 

[Ken-1122]

I guess I don’t know what you mean by “catering.

Catering would be when someone with the mental disorder becomes convinced the guy on the radio is talking to him, to insist everybody around the delusional person pretend the radio guy IS talking to him so he doesn't feel bad

” Is it catering to recognize that gender dysphoria is a real neurophysiological dysfunction that requires treatment?

Only if his treatment requires I pretend as if his disorder is reality.

 

[Ken-1122]

Going by their biology requires knowing something about their biology. Since you don't know anything about their biology, you aren't going by their biology.

the fact that they are human means I know a lot about their biology! Just because I don't know 100% does not mean I know nothing about their biology

And there it is. You go by how they present. The presentation of a man and the presentation of a woman is entirely sociological, not biological.

Wrong. How they present sociologically is usually based on their biology. This isn't as complicated as you are trying to make it.

 

[jayem]

Only if his treatment requires I pretend as if his disorder is reality.

Another person’s medical care requires almost nothing from you. Though it would be commendable to at least have some empathy for anyone undergoing difficult, lengthy, and painful treatment. That’s just common courtesy and human decency.

There’s a reason I said someone else’s medical care requires almost nothing from you. Most all health insurance— including ACA, employer provided plans, and Medicare—now cover treatment of gender dysphoria when the diagnosis is confirmed by a qualified specialist and reassignment surgery is documented as medically necessary. I don’t know where you get your health coverage. But if you’re employed, the odds are good that a tiny portion of your premium (or FICA) is paying for gender reassignment .

 

[Ken-1122]

Another person’s medical care requires almost nothing from you. Though it would be commendable to at least have some empathy for anyone undergoing difficult, lengthy, and painful treatment. That’s just common courtesy and human decency.

There’s a reason I said someone else’s medical care requires almost nothing from you. Most all health insurance— including ACA, employer provided plans, and Medicare—now cover treatment of gender dysphoria when the diagnosis is confirmed by a qualified specialist and reassignment surgery is documented as medically necessary. I don’t know where you get your health coverage. But if you’re employed, the odds are good that a tiny portion of your premium (or FICA) is paying for gender reassignment .

If that's all there was to it, I doubt anybody would have a problem with it.