What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[zoidar]

"By positing that man could choose between good and evil without divine intercession, Pelagianism brought into question Christianity's core doctrine of Jesus' act of substitutionary atonement to expiate the sins of mankind."
Wikipedia

Wikipedia is not the best source to get to the truth of the matter.

 

[QvQ]

I, until now, did not realize there were any religious "denominations" that were not in the tradition of Aquinas, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, with the possible exception of Latter Day Saints.
Yet there is a group which seems to believe a certain set of core principles that are hostile to any theologian Augustine forward. And many are represented here.
May I ask what denomination is represented here? As I have been puzzled for while.
I don't recognize the particular theological tradition or the denomination of, for instance, jesusywhw.
It is personal question so feel free not to answer.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

"By positing that man could choose between good and evil without divine intercession, Pelagianism brought into question Christianity's core doctrine of Jesus' act of substitutionary atonement to expiate the sins of mankind."
Wikipedia

Are you serious ?

Wiki ?

that’s like using a secular source to define biblical words .

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I, until now, did not realize there were any religious "denominations" that were not in the tradition of Aquinas, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, with the possible exception of Latter Day Saints.
Yet there is a group which seems to believe a certain set of core principles that are hostile to any theologian Augustine forward. And many are represented here.
May I ask what denomination is represented here? As I have been puzzled for while.
I don't recognize the particular theological tradition or the denomination of, for instance, jesusywhw.
It is personal question so feel free not to answer.

I will gladly answer . Right now I’m in a non denomination church .

But theology is Theo ( God ) and ology ( the study of ). The study of God . Theology must begin with a proper understanding of Gods nature , character , Being, attributes etc….. From there we develop our belief system under this umbrella .

 

[zoidar]

I, until now, did not realize there were any religious "denominations" that were not in the tradition of Aquinas, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, with the possible exception of Latter Day Saints.
Yet there is a group which seems to believe a certain set of core principles that are hostile to any theologian Augustine forward. And many are represented here.
May I ask what denomination is represented here? As I have been puzzled for while.
I don't recognize the particular theological tradition or the denomination of, for instance, jesusywhw.
It is personal question so feel free not to answer.

I attend a Lutheran church, though I don't fully agree with the Lutheran doctrines. I don't know where I place myself. Sometimes joke about it calling myself a "Catholeran", as I like both the Catholic church and the Lutheran church.

 

[QvQ]

I will gladly answer . Right now I’m in a non denomination church .

Thank you.
I was raised atheist by Catholic married Lutheran. Personally, I am a Catholic/Calvinist as close as I can determine.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I attend a Lutheran church, though I don't fully agree with the Lutheran doctrines. I don't know where I place myself. Sometimes joke about it calling myself a "Catholeran", as I like both the Catholic church and the Lutheran church.

And many things from the RCC carried over into Lutheranism and Calvinism . I grew up Lutheran, then became a Calvinist .

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

And one of the most difficult things for us to do is break away from the traditions we have been taught within our denominations. None of us want to admit we have been wrong .

 

[Clare73]

Gnosticism is error

Agreed. . .

and the apostle’s and ECFs refuted it until it was accepted by Augustine and his followers

Your issue is not with Calvin.

Your issue with your faulty human notion of God's love which you cannot reconcile to the Biblical notion of his justice.

Don't blame it on Calvin.

.

 

[Clare73]

Gnosticism is error and the apostle’s and ECFs refuted it until it was accepted by Augustine and his followers

If you think Augustine was a gnostic, you don't know church history.

 

[Clare73]

I will say I haven't studied the Early Church that much so I go with what those who have say.

"Unlike Augustine, Pelagius knew Greek. Pelagius did not teach that man can save himself. He only taught that a man can live a righteous life via free will choice. The idea that man can save himself is what came from Augustine’s accusations against him, as Calvinists do with Arminians today when they accuse them of teaching “works salvation”. True Pelagianism is truth according to what the early Church taught, not as Augustine described it.​

If Pelagius taught that man can live a righteous life by his own free, then he was teaching that man can save himself, and Augustine did not accuse him falsely.

What Augustine described is without a doubt heresy, but it’s not what Pelagius actually taught. This is evident in the writings of Pelagius, as well as in the fact that the councils could find no fault in his teachings 2 times that he appeared before them in his own defense. When he was finally marked as a heretic the third time around, it was when he could not be present to defend himself (in Tunisia where Augustine resided) and Augustine and Jerome were present to misrepresent his position."

Pelagius has been falsely judged by his critics

My objection to Pelagius is based on his assertion of philosophical "free will," contrary to the Biblical presentation of man's ability to choose, it is not based on the ruling of any church council, with which I am not even familiar.

 

[Clare73]

Agree Calvinist have made him their scapegoat. Pelagius was aligned with the early church’s beliefs until Augustine came along .

So you're saying the early church agreed with the philosophers regarding the meaning of free will, as it relates to fallen man.

Then Augustine should have refuted him, for Pelagius' assertion of philosophical free will as it exists in fallen man is contra-Biblical, per 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8; John 8:3-8.

Good for Augustine!

 

[BobRyan]

Before creation, there was no sin. There was no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, and justice. There was no Sovereignty for there was no creation to be Sovereign over. Why do you ask about those attributes and that they were not necessary? Because those are God's secondary attributes concerning the creation and the fall. God's love is a primary attribute, like Holy is a primary one. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes, which were not in use until the creation and the fall.

The true nature of Gods love is at the heart of the gospel message:

Love requires an object other than "self" to be love in its pure highest form. The Triune Godhead could Love God with all their heart and soul -- even before Creation , without this being merely a 'Love of self'

 

[zoidar]

​

My objection to Pelagius is based on his assertion of philosophical "free will," contrary to the Biblical presentation of man's ability to choose, it is not based on the ruling of any church council, with which I am not even familiar.

It's just that if the Early Church Fathers believed the same things as Pelagius regarding free will, then Pelagius ideas of free will was of the Early Church. So then saying that those ideas regarding free will was brought into Church by Pelagius is wrong, and if so then attacking the free will presented by Pelagius is also attacking the free will held by the Early Church.

 

[QvQ]

And one of the most difficult things for us to do is break away from the traditions we have been taught within our denominations. None of us want to admit we have been wrong .

I was raised Atheist. It was not difficult for me to break away from atheism. It was Impossible. I could listen with a straight face to the Word, inwardly laughing and mocking the silly folks who believed such superstitious nonsense.
With God all things are possible. Do I believe in Irresistible Grace? As I understand it, yes I do.

 

[Clare73]

Now the above are the historical facts . Revisionists -
Augustinians/ Reformers made him their scapegoat.

No, Pelagius' own doctrine that man could live a righteous life by his own free choice made him their "scapegoat," because that is contra-Biblical, the unregenerate (no Holy Spirit) man can make no such choice (1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8; John 3:3-8) according to the word of God.

 

[Clare73]

I don't know if it is. If I were to abandon my doctrines I would be just as saved. Mark says you can't abandon the "doctrines of grace", that sounds to me like God is supernaturally keeping the genuine Calvinist in his doctrines.
I would maybe had said it is like making the doctrines of grace equally important with salvation. Does that work with you?

Rating God's truth doesn't really work for me.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Love requires an object other than "self" to be love in its pure highest form. The Triune Godhead could Love God with all their heart and soul -- even before Creation , without this being merely a 'Love of self'

It’s why a unitarian god cannot be love , that is a self love , not loving of another to share / experience love.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

No, Pelagius' own doctrine that man could live a righteous life by his own free choice made him their "scapegoat," because that is contra-Biblical, the unregenerate (no Holy Spirit) man can make no such choice (1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8; John 3:3-8) according to the word of God.

Fallacious . Quote Pelagius writings .

next

 

[misput]

Please demonstrate your assertion.

Post #2574 Please explain what the scriptures I presented mean to you.