What doctrinal debates would you say have reached a state of "stalemate"?

[TruthSeek3r]

From Chess: Stalemate - Wikipedia

Stalemate is a situation in the game of chess where the player whose turn it is to move is not in check but has no legal move. Stalemate results in a draw. During the endgame, stalemate is a resource that can enable the player with the inferior position to draw the game rather than lose.
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I'm asking this question inspired by the thread What is wrong with Calvinism ?, which at the moment of typing this has reached 140 pages and 2,781 posts of heated debate (and counting). It looks like no-one is able to persuade anyone, no-one is able to fully convince the other party, so I would venture to say that the whole discussion by now has reached a stalemate, and people are bound to keep on debating and debating for ages, unless they give up the whole enterprise and admit that no-one knows the ultimate truth.

Question: What doctrinal debates would you say have reached a state of "stalemate"?

Personally, I would say that the whole "Cessationism vs. Continuationism" debate has reached a stalemate too.

The "Are there Apostles and Prophets today?" debate is probably in a stalemate as well.

 

[RickReads]

From Chess: Stalemate - Wikipedia

Stalemate is a situation in the game of chess where the player whose turn it is to move is not in check but has no legal move. Stalemate results in a draw. During the endgame, stalemate is a resource that can enable the player with the inferior position to draw the game rather than lose.
​

I'm asking this question inspired by the thread What is wrong with Calvinism ?, which at the moment of typing this has reached 140 pages and 2,781 posts of heated debate (and counting). It looks like no-one is able to persuade no-one, no-one is able to fully convince the other party, so I would venture to say that the whole discussion by now has reached a stalemate, and people are bound to keep on debating and debating for ages, unless they give up the whole enterprise and admit that no-one knows the ultimate truth.

Question: What doctrinal debates would you say have reached a state of "stalemate"?

Personally, I would say that the whole "Cessationism vs. Continuationism" debate has reached a stalemate too.

The "Are there Apostles and Prophets today?" debate is probably in a stalemate as well.

Just because indoctrinated people are unable to grow, unwilling to admit errors, and care more about their own opinion than they do Jesus' opinions it doesn't mean a stalemate.

God is not the author of confusion the Bible says, and the gospel says what it means and means what it says. In a debate, the side that best reflects the views of the Apostle Paul will always win. No such thing as a stalemate unless both sides are wrong.

1. Romans 2:16
   In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
2. Romans 16:25
   Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
3. 1 Corinthians 9:17
   For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
4. 1 Corinthians 9:18
   What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

 

[RickReads]

From Chess: Stalemate - Wikipedia

Stalemate is a situation in the game of chess where the player whose turn it is to move is not in check but has no legal move. Stalemate results in a draw. During the endgame, stalemate is a resource that can enable the player with the inferior position to draw the game rather than lose.
​

I'm asking this question inspired by the thread What is wrong with Calvinism ?, which at the moment of typing this has reached 140 pages and 2,781 posts of heated debate (and counting). It looks like no-one is able to persuade no-one, no-one is able to fully convince the other party, so I would venture to say that the whole discussion by now has reached a stalemate, and people are bound to keep on debating and debating for ages, unless they give up the whole enterprise and admit that no-one knows the ultimate truth.

Question: What doctrinal debates would you say have reached a state of "stalemate"?

Personally, I would say that the whole "Cessationism vs. Continuationism" debate has reached a stalemate too.

The "Are there Apostles and Prophets today?" debate is probably in a stalemate as well.

On a side note, stalemates can't happen unless the stronger player allows it.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

On a side note, stalemates can't happen unless the stronger player allows it.

What would you say is the strongest, killer argument against Calvinism (in as few words as possible)? The "checkmate" argument?

 

[RickReads]

What would you say is the strongest, killer argument against Calvinism (in as few words as possible)? The "checkmate" argument?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

whosoever = everyone has a chance

 

[TruthSeek3r]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

whosoever = everyone has a chance

I can easily think of interpretative counterarguments, but anyways, let's not get this thread derailed into off-topic arena.

 

[Cockcrow]

From Chess: Stalemate - Wikipedia

Stalemate is a situation in the game of chess where the player whose turn it is to move is not in check but has no legal move. Stalemate results in a draw. During the endgame, stalemate is a resource that can enable the player with the inferior position to draw the game rather than lose.
​

I'm asking this question inspired by the thread What is wrong with Calvinism ?, which at the moment of typing this has reached 140 pages and 2,781 posts of heated debate (and counting). It looks like no-one is able to persuade anyone, no-one is able to fully convince the other party, so I would venture to say that the whole discussion by now has reached a stalemate, and people are bound to keep on debating and debating for ages, unless they give up the whole enterprise and admit that no-one knows the ultimate truth.

Question: What doctrinal debates would you say have reached a state of "stalemate"?

Personally, I would say that the whole "Cessationism vs. Continuationism" debate has reached a stalemate too.

The "Are there Apostles and Prophets today?" debate is probably in a stalemate as well.

the truth is that God doesn't love everyone, some are his elect, many are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, if someone rejects the Bible and the things of God then it is clear they were made that way. we are made for Gods will and good pleasure, certain people are destined for Hell to show Gods power and that's just reality and they can't comprehend the things of God. The things of God are not popular and to be loved by the world, if the world loves you then you're not in truth.

 

[RickReads]

I can easily think of interpretative counterarguments, but anyways, let's not get this thread derailed into off-topic arena.

whosoever
pronoun; possessive whose·so·ev·er;objective whom·so·ev·er.
whoever; whatever person:Whosoever wants to apply should write to the bureau.

 

[BobRyan]

From Chess: Stalemate - Wikipedia

Stalemate is a situation in the game of chess where the player whose turn it is to move is not in check but has no legal move. Stalemate results in a draw. During the endgame, stalemate is a resource that can enable the player with the inferior position to draw the game rather than lose.
​

I'm asking this question inspired by the thread What is wrong with Calvinism ?, which at the moment of typing this has reached 140 pages and 2,781 posts of heated debate (and counting). It looks like no-one is able to persuade anyone, no-one is able to fully convince the other party, so I would venture to say that the whole discussion by now has reached a stalemate, and people are bound to keep on debating and debating for ages, unless they give up the whole enterprise and admit that no-one knows the ultimate truth.

To view doctrine through the lense of a single debate thread where opponents do not change sides - is to use tunnel vision to observe a beautiful lawn - and only get a half-eaten blade of grass in your view.

No matter the topic - on most of the CF debate threads - the two opposing sides , main contributors, never change sides. That is a function of how debates work and the inherent filters in how main contributors surface in the debate. It is not proof that "no Bible truth matters". I suspect we all agree.

So in reality people change from being Calvinist to Arminian all the time , every week and you see it if you are in an Arminian group (like Seventh-day Adventist) and see former Calvinists joining every week.

The the opposing scenario is also true. There are Calvinist groups that see former Arminian/Catholic new-members joining on a regular basis.

So "nobody is changing" is not an accurate picture when you look at what is going on across Christianity.

Many of Christ's opponents never switched sides and joined Him. And He certainly did not join them. Yet many others did switch sides and join Him.

There is not a single debate recorded in the Gospels where the opposing side says to Jesus "well then , we were wrong and you are right.. we now agree with you... please continue"

Personally, I would say that the whole "Cessationism vs. Continuationism" debate has reached a stalemate too.

The "Are there Apostles and Prophets today?" debate is probably in a stalemate as well.

Another example where we see people who did not line up with "continuationism" - join "full gospel" kinds of groups ... all the time and I see it when people of that background join the SDA denomination every day.

Eph 4 says that the 1 Cor 12 spiritual gifts continue until the 2nd coming.

 

[childeye 2]

From Chess: Stalemate - Wikipedia

Stalemate is a situation in the game of chess where the player whose turn it is to move is not in check but has no legal move. Stalemate results in a draw. During the endgame, stalemate is a resource that can enable the player with the inferior position to draw the game rather than lose.
​

I'm asking this question inspired by the thread What is wrong with Calvinism ?, which at the moment of typing this has reached 140 pages and 2,781 posts of heated debate (and counting). It looks like no-one is able to persuade anyone, no-one is able to fully convince the other party, so I would venture to say that the whole discussion by now has reached a stalemate, and people are bound to keep on debating and debating for ages, unless they give up the whole enterprise and admit that no-one knows the ultimate truth.

Question: What doctrinal debates would you say have reached a state of "stalemate"?

Personally, I would say that the whole "Cessationism vs. Continuationism" debate has reached a stalemate too.

The "Are there Apostles and Prophets today?" debate is probably in a stalemate as well.

The problem is that people end up arguing semantics. It's usually misunderstandings that cause stalemates.

 

[dzheremi]

If you post on any part of the internet with the expectation that you'll actually change other people's minds/views on things, rather than in order to have your say, then you are deluded as to the persuasive power of your own argument(s) and/or the power of your online 'oratory'.

 

[PloverWing]

Question: What doctrinal debates would you say have reached a state of "stalemate"?

I'd say that most of the doctrinal debates that have resulted in denominational divisions are in a state of stalemate, or at least a "draw", in the sense that neither side is going to "win" in persuading the other. I'd include in this list: infant vs. believer's baptism; the best form of church government (bishops, council of elders, congregational democracy, congregational consensus, etc.); and the role of church authority.

I was about to include the predestination vs free will debate on my list, but I think that's maybe not at a stalemate; the truth there is a complicated mix of grace, faith, and works, God's action and our human action, and if we're willing to put down our slogans and listen to each other, there are still some "moves" that could lead to understanding. This may also be the case with some of the other impasses.

 

[Der Alte]

@dzheremi
"What doctrinal debates would you say have reached a state of "stalemate"?
When I joined this forum more than 3 decades ago I quickly learned that the same questionable arguments and same out-of-context proof texts are endlessly repeated. I also realized that there are entrenched members of their religious groups that are very, very difficult to reach. But I also realized that there were posters here who are not so entrenched who are willing to learn. While I am talking to the entrenched group, the not so entrenched group are also reading the responses.
Once upon a time I was a mod, for about 5 years, at this forum, SN: OldShepherd. I was working/living in Korea.
My night was day here. One night a member of this forum, who belonged to one of those controversial Christian Theology Groups went to one of their group's forums and recruited a bunch of members to come here and disrupt this forum. I and another mod spent the better part of 8 hours deleting their vulgar, hateful, heretical etc. posts.
The member who instigated this was an attorney on the west coast. When the smoke cleared only one of them remained. This member was polite, respectful and conducted themself in a Christian manner. This person later became a Christian and was a mod here for several years. That is why I continue.

 

[childeye 2]

If you post on any part of the internet with the expectation that you'll actually change other people's minds/views on things, rather than in order to have your say, then you are deluded as to the persuasive power of your own argument(s) and/or the power of your online 'oratory'.

This makes me think of how God used the foolishness of preaching to show His foolishness is greater than the wisdom of men. It may look like the proud resist the Word, but it's the Word that resists the proud and chooses the lowly and weak.

 

[RickReads]

"What doctrinal debates would you say have reached a state of "stalemate"?
When I joined this forum more than 3 decades ago I quickly learned that the same questionable arguments and same out-of-context proof texts are endlessly repeated. I also realized that there are entrenched members of their religious groups that are very, very difficult to reach. But I also realized that there were posters here who are not so entrenched who are willing to learn. While I am talking to the entrenched group, the not so entrenched group are also reading the responses.
Once upon a time I was a mod, for about 5 years, at this forum, SN: OldShepherd. I was working/living in Korea.
My night was day here. One night a member of this forum, who belonged to one of those controversial Christian Theology Groups went to one of their group's forums and recruited a bunch of members to come here and disrupt this forum. I and another mod spent the better part of 8 hours deleting their vulgar, hateful, heretical etc. posts.
The member who instigated this was an attorney on the west coast. When the smoke cleared only one of them remained. This member was polite, respectful and conducted themself in a Christian manner. This person later became a Christian and was a mod here for several years. That is why I continue.

That's an interesting story. Thx for sharing.