What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Jesus is YHWH]

It ain't about philosophy. It's about us. As far back as Joshua people were given choices.

Joshua 24:15​

(15) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

but wait wait says the calvinist man has no free will to choose this day whom you will serve, it makes a mockery out of Gods word and His commands. Jesus on numerous occasions taught and said " if any man is WILLING let him come and follow Me. "

 

[zoidar]

.

 

[John Mullally]

Gods grace is resistible,

God is resistible as we read in both Testaments below.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Since all men are not saved and Gids grace goes out to all men, Gods grace can be resisted.

Acts 7:51
“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

God the Holy Spirit can be resisted.

Hebrews 10:29
How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Here we see the Spirit of grace resisted, insulted, rejected and trampled under.

Hebrews 6:4-8
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


Here we have those receiving Gods grace sharing in the Holy Spirit of grace reject it. They have fallen away permanently from His grace and can no longer repent.

Psalm 78:17;40
But they continued to sin against Him, rebelling in the desert against the Most High. How often they disobeyed Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert!

Here we see them in the wilderness rejecting Gods grace upon them and grieving God in the process.

conclusion: just 1 passage showing God can be resisted is enough to prove it is true. But as we see there are plenty of passages which prove man can resist God.

The " I " in tulip is false teaching.

Listen to the Calvinist Lorrain Boettner.

Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,

"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."

1)I have already proven irresistible grace is not true with Acts 7:51
2)I have proven the atonement is not limited- John 1:20, 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Pet 3:9 and 1 John 2:2
3)I have proven that election is not unconditional- whosever will may come, that means all, everyone from numerous passages . John 1:12 John 3:16

hope this helps !!!

Preach it brother!

 

[QvQ]

The philosophers can debate free will. However, the truth is, here in East of Eden where I live, no man I know has totally free will. Choices are limited, wisdom is scarce and moral choices always involve self as the motive; the preservation, pleasure and dominance of said self. And the self justifies himself, washing himself clean in self justification and self righteous excuses.
I live among the unregenerate degenerate in East of Eden. There is only one way outta here and that is by the Grace of God who in His infinite mercy sent the Lord Jesus Christ.
So if you say to me, "man has totally free will" I have to wonder where y'all live.

 

[John Mullally]

The philosophers can debate free will. However, the truth is, here in East of Eden where I live, no man I know has totally free will. Choices are limited, wisdom is scarce and moral choices always involve self as the motive; the preservation, pleasure and dominance of said self. And the self justifies himself, washing himself clean in self justification and self righteous excuses.
I live among the unregenerate degenerate in East of Eden. There is only one way outta here and that is through the Grace of God who in His infinite mercy sent the Lord Jesus Christ to show us the way.
So if you say to me, "man has totally free will" I have to wonder where y'all live.

Most directives in the NT provide evidence that you have a free will. God, our judge, is not a trickster that directs men to do that which is impossible for them. Many of the NT directives require being born-again - but that is attainable as men respond to the Holy Spirit. From Acts 2:38-39, we see that that being born-again and saved is promised to those who repent and are baptized in response to the preaching of the Gospel. The fact that many ignore God is their exercise of free will.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them​

 

[QvQ]

Every directive in the NT is evidence that you have a free will. God, our judge, is not a trickster that directs men to do that which is impossible.

God directed Moses to do impossible things. By the Power and Will of God Moses did as God commanded. for all things are possible with God.
Yes, it is impossible by our own free will to get out of East of Eden but through the Grace of God, through Jesus Christ, we can.
To say that I have total free will or even free will is bootstrapping. I could will my way out of East of Eden.

 

[John Mullally]

Yes, it is impossible by our own free will to get out of East of Eden but through the Grace of God, through Jesus Christ, we can.

God is not denying grace to any as 1 Timothy 2:4 states that God desires all be saved as one of a few reasons for believers to pray for all. Some out of their "free will" reject the conviction of the Holy Spirit as shown by King Agrippa in Acts 26:28:

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.”​

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

God is not denying grace to any as 1 Timothy 2:4 states that God desires all be saved as one of a few reasons for believers to pray for all. Some out of their "free will" reject the conviction of the Holy Spirit as shown by King Agrippa in Acts 26:28:

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.”​

Amen !!!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

The Golden Rule of Interpretation

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),founder of The Biblical Research Society



Thayers

Cosmos: the inhabitants of the

5. world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5; γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21; ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰς τόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19, cf. 12:46; of the Messiah, John 6:14; John 11:27; of Jesus as the Messiah, John 9:39; John 16:28; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 1:15; also ἐισέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, Hebrews 10:5; of false teachers, 2 John 1:7 (yet here L T Tr WH ἐξέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον; (so all texts in 1 John 4:1)); to invade, of evils coming into existence among men and beginning to exert their power: of sin and death, Romans 5:12 (of death, Wis. 2:24; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 3, 4 [ET]; of idolatry, Wis. 14:14). ἀποστέλλειν τινα εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 3:17; John 10:36; John 17:18; 1 John 4:9; φῶς τοῦ κόσμου, Matthew 5:14; John 8:12; John 9:5; σωτήρ τοῦ κόσμου, John 4:42; 1 John 4:14 (σωτηρία τοῦ κόσμου Wis. 6:26 (25); ἐλπίς τοῦ κόσμου, Wis. 14:6; πρωτόπλαστος πατήρ τοῦ κόσμου, of Adam, Wis. 10:1); στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου (see στοιχεῖον, 3 and 4); ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, among men, John 16:33; John 17:13; Ephesians 2:12; ἐν κόσμῳ (see Winer's Grammar, 123 (117)), 1 Timothy 3:16; εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου, to dwell among men, John 1:10; John 9:5; John 17:11, 12 R G; 1 John 4:3; εἶναι ἐν κόσμῳ, to be present, Romans 5:13; ἐξελθεῖν, ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to withdraw from human society and seek an abode outside of it, 1 Corinthians 5:10; ἀναστρέφεσθαι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, to behave oneself, 2 Corinthians 1:12; likewise εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου τούτῳ, 1 John 4:17.


6. "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; John 14:27 (); ; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 11:32; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 3:1, 13; 1 John 4:5; 1 John 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Hebrews 11:38; in Noah's time, ibid. 7; with οὗτος added, Ephesians 2:2 (on which see αἰών, 3); εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου and ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (see εἰμί, V. 3rd.), John 8:23; John 15:19; John 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5; λαλεῖν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, i. e. the devil, John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11; ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ he that is operative in the world (also of the devil), 1 John 4:4; τό πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου


1 John 2:2-He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:15-17-Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.


1 John 4:3-6- but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

1 John 4:14- And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

1 John 5:19- We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Now its very clear from the Lexicon definition and in 1 John that the cosmos/world does not mean Gods elect (that is Calvinism) not what John means in his epistle. It clearly means everyone not exceptions in this world, all of its inhabitants who make up the ungodly multitude. It is clearly all inclusive of everyone, all, the entire world that lies under the evil one in opposition to God from the context of 1 John.

Only someone with a closed mind trapped in their dogma/doctrine would argue otherwise resulting in eisegesis( reading their own ideas into the text) rather than exegesis ( letting the text dictate ones ideas ).


We see above that the whole world lies under the evil one and its that same identical whole world in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus made PROPITIATION for which is clear from the CONTEXT in 1 John.

So if the above truth from 1 John 2:2 which is clear as to the biblical meaning is all inclusive not exclusive ( Gods elect Jew/Gentiles) which comes from ones dogma/doctrine ( calvinism)

I'm all about the TRUTH never dogma, never the doctrines of men, never to win friends, but to only uphold the Truth in Gods word from its context. And the context here is in clear opposition to the teaching of Calvinsm in 1 John. World NEVER means Jew/Gentiles in the epistle but means all of the inhabitants of the world /cosmos who are ungodly , where the lust of the flesh, the pride of life and the lust of the eyes come from and the god of this world the evil one the spirit of antichrist , the spirit of falsehoods rules and reigns in all of those inhabitants in opposition to God.

Its that world whom Christ made propitiation.

Praise God for His word, His truth, His ways and not the traditions of men who make void the word of God. On Christ the solid Rock I stand all other ground is sinking sand.

Doctrine/Dogma will never cloud my mind and I will seek, search truth until my dying day and never allow any ISM ( formerly calvinism) to cloud my view of Scripture.

I'm so happy I'm not trapped by any box, ism or anything else that would cloud my view of his Holy Word. To Him be the Glory forever and ever , Amen.

What a Glorious Savior of the World we have in Jesus- Hallelujah !

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Yes God indeed loves everyone as we read in Scripture below, not just a few, the elect, the chosen ones.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

hope this helps !!!

 

[returntosender]

Where are you at with Calvinism? Your post sounds like a repudiation of it.
I didn't know it but my thinking was Calvinist when I was a young man, a result of listening to Baptist and Pentecostal sermons.

Once I learned what Calvinism really means I began looking for Biblical reasons to shift my positions.
It took several years of wrestling with it before I was satisfied with what I was seeing in the gospel.

Can you describe Calvinism in a nutshell?
Thanks

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Some early church history

Church fathers before Augustine entered the scene …


The first 300 years AD we had a complete agreement among the early church fathers that man has a free will, that we are not “once saved always saved” and that we were not born with some kind of sinful nature which is holding us back to depravity and inability to seek and find God. Are we to believe those years were full of darkness before Augustine entered the scene (354 -430 AD) to finally give us light? The only ones who taught against free will were the gnostics. All of the early church up to the time of Augustine was unanimous in their belief and understanding of the nature of sin being that of choice.

Quotes from old church fathers, supporting Free will and objecting to the Sinful nature
Church fathers before Augustine entered the scene … The first 300 years AD we had a complete agreement among the early church fathers that man has a free will, that we are not “once sav…

bjorkbloggen.com



“Gnostics also believed that mankind was wholly evil and some sects even renounced marriage and procreation. They also believed in two gods, one evil god and one good god. Their teachings are believed to have influenced Saint Augustine in the development of his theology of “total depravity” of mankind and concept of God. For nine years St. Augustine adhered to Manichaeism, a Persian philosophy proclaimed in southern Babylonia (Iraq) that taught a doctrine of “total depravity” and the claim that they were the “elect.” He then turned to skepticism. Next, Augustine was attracted to the philosophy of Neoplatonism. He blended these beliefs with his later Gnostic Christian teachings. His teachings were in turn passed on to John Calvin in his extensive study of Augustine’s writings. It is very easy to follow the trail of John Calvin’s theology from the pagan religion of Mani in Babylonia to his writings in France and Geneva” from source above.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Clare73]

Do you think God is bound by philosophy?

Relevance?

 

[Clare73]

Some early church history

Church fathers before Augustine entered the scene …


The first 300 years AD we had a complete agreement among the early church fathers that man has a free will, that we are not “once saved always saved” and that we were not born with some kind of sinful nature which is holding us back to depravity and inability to seek and find God. Are we to believe those years were full of darkness before Augustine entered the scene (354 -430 AD) to finally give us light? The only ones who taught against free will were the gnostics. All of the early church up to the time of Augustine was unanimous in their belief and understanding of the nature of sin being that of choice.

Quotes from old church fathers, supporting Free will and objecting to the Sinful nature
Church fathers before Augustine entered the scene … The first 300 years AD we had a complete agreement among the early church fathers that man has a free will, that we are not “once sav…

bjorkbloggen.com



“Gnostics also believed that mankind was wholly evil and some sects even renounced marriage and procreation. They also believed in two gods, one evil god and one good god. Their teachings are believed to have influenced Saint Augustine in the development of his theology of “total depravity” of mankind and concept of God. For nine years St. Augustine adhered to Manichaeism, a Persian philosophy proclaimed in southern Babylonia (Iraq) that taught a doctrine of “total depravity” and the claim that they were the “elect.” He then turned to skepticism. Next, Augustine was attracted to the philosophy of Neoplatonism. He blended these beliefs with his later Gnostic Christian teachings. His teachings were in turn passed on to John Calvin in his extensive study of Augustine’s writings. It is very easy to follow the trail of John Calvin’s theology from the pagan religion of Mani in Babylonia to his writings in France and Geneva” from source above.

hope this helps !!!

Relevance to Scripture?

 

[Der Alte]

Relevance to Scripture?

Was the entire church wrong for 400 years +/- until Augustine came along?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Relevance to Scripture?

Relevance to historical facts and where calvinism get its foundation.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Was the entire church wrong for 400 years +/- until Augustine came along?

Amen get ready for revisionism or evasion or equivocation. Its what is left when the truth hits a calvinist between the eyes. I know from personal experience and dealing with this on carm now on a daily basis when I'm not censored or banned challenging them.

And praise God as I personally know 4 posters and one of them a hyper who has come out of calvinism from being persistent and God opening their hearts. We have had many conversations offline , trough email, chats, facetime and phone calls. So God works through this medium to change hearts.

I was a lurker here for a couple years before I joined in 2011. I've been at the other place for 20. I can say without a doubt this is better just for the fact we can discuss opposing views here without the threat of being banned . I will attack doctrines but not the person. And this one is very personal with me since I was all in hook, line and sinker for decades.

 

[Clare73]

Clare, scripture seems to indicate every human being has an inborn sense of right and wrong, good and evil and their response to this is what leads them toward or away from God. What do you think?

Good question. . .I agree, it is the conscience, and it governs the human realm (Romans 2:14-15) .

Scripture is also emphatic that God himself, his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--are likewise clearly seen from what has been made, so that man is without excuse for neither glorifying him as God nor giving thanks to him (Romans 1:19-21).

However, morality and God are not the same thing. One can be both moral and Godless.

What leads them away from God is their fallen nature and no Holy Spirit rebirth into spiritual (eternal) life. (1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8; John 3:3-8).

 

[Clare73]

Relevance to historical facts and where calvinism get its foundation.

FIrst. . .Pelagius' entrance into the picture changes the reference points for the church at that point.

Is what they meant by "free will" what Pelagius meant, who used the definintion of the philosophers, or is it what Scripture presents?

Secondly. . ."facts" are in the eye of the beholder.

That Calvin may deal with the same issues as they, does not mean Calvin's foundation is they.

Please demonstrate, from Calvin himself, what you know about Calvin's foundation.

Pelagius likewise uses "free will" in his dealing with Scripture, but that does not mean "free will" is found in Scripture.

Scripture shows voluntary choice, it states nothing about "free will."
The voluntary choice of Scripture and the "free will" of the philosophers are not the same thing.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

"Facts" are in the eye of the beholder.

That Calvin may deal with the same issues as they, does not mean Calvin's foundation is they.

Please demonstrate, from Calvin himself, what you know about Calvin's foundation.

Pelagius likewise uses "free will" in his dealing with Scripture, but it does not mean "free will" is found in Scripture.

Calvin carried on so much from his day with Catholicism and the rule of the king. Unbiblical ideologies along with being a student of augustine. There is nothing uplifting in his theology, its dark. I know as I've taught it for decades. Those still in it are blind to it until God opens their minds/hearts ( a stronghold )

My son in law a calvinist pastor is starting to come out of it through many personal discussions, prayers, challenges and going back to the nature and character of God and His innate attributes which are in direct opposition to calvins teachings.

hope this helps !!!