What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Clare73]

I always thought Clare is a female. Am I mistaken?

Nope. . .Clare is a she.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

There isn't anything better than God is 100% in charge, God is absolutely sovereign and if some people don't like that that is too bad because that is what the scriptures say


Can a dead person respond to anything? No. So do the scriptures say that the natural man is dead? Eph 2:1 "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins..." and 2:5 "even when we were dead in trespasses, He made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" and Col 2:13 "And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses." Prior to our conversion by the Lord Jesus Christ we were all dead. It is only by God's grace (and not our free will) that we are alive.

If it is only because we give God the authority to convert us (He cannot violate our free will remember) then that means that we have more power than God! If this is true we need to stop singing about God's grace and start singing about our wonderful and powerful free will. I suggest new words to Amazing Grace. Here we go:

Amazing free will how sweet the sound
that saved a wretch like me, I once was
lost but now am found twas blind but now I see.

Surely some 7-11 praise song writer can take this and run with it.

Somewhat confused with your statement, you do not believe the lost sinner has to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved?

 

[Clare73]

He does things like this:

1. Says "Good for you!" and "you don't know the scriptures".
2. Asks for bible commentary on a list of scriptural passages and requires "the whole council of God".
3. Frequently answers questions by telling the other person to find the answer in some of his long posts.
4. Purports to give commentary by attaching a laundry list of scriptures without explanation.
5. With me: constantly demands to know how arguments made from Acts and NT Epistles relate to terms in Christ's parable (wheat, tare, sheep, goat). They don't - neither the book of Acts nor the NT Epistles reference Christ's parables.
6. Pretends to answer from a purely objective point of view when he is obviously a staunch Calvinist. It comes across as inauthentic. Calvinist ReverendRV also pointed this out.

That's kickin' up a lotta' subjective ad hominem sand for distraction, and for a smokescreen hopefully covering the simple fact there has been no objective demonstration from the Scriptures of her Biblical error.

 

[AVB 2]

Somewhat confused with your statement, you do not believe the lost sinner has to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved?

In order for anyone to be born again (and therefore be fit for eternal life in heaven) EVERYONE must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

In order for anyone to be born again (and therefore be fit for eternal life in heaven) EVERYONE must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then it wasn't me that is confused, it's you, you need to slowly read my post you remarked too and show me where I said otherwise.

 

[John Mullally]

The fact that God judges men means they must be able at some point to respond positively to Him.

This is it, in a nutshell. THIS is humanocentric, human reasoning. God says no such thing. It is only your judgement that claims it.

The question is not whether the command implies the ability to obey. The question is whether the person does or does not choose, according to their inclinations or desires —that is, according to their will. The Bible shows that they ALWAYS do.

You can call it humancentric. I call in conscience. Our court's are not set up to convict someone who is judged unable to do the right thing.

This point is a strong one for rejecting Calvinism.

 

[Clare73]

The only authority to question is Calvins. In 95 pages of this thread, it's only been done once.

Perhaps because no one is assuming it.

 

[Clare73]

You can call it humancentric. I call in conscience.

That doesn't make it any better.
If it's not divine, it is still humanocentric.

Our court's are not set up to convict someone who is judged unable to do the right thing.

Poor God!. . .he is not even as just as fallen man.

However, that it is not the fault of the baby rattlesnakes in my backyard that they were born rattlesnakes, does not keep me from hacking them to death with a hoe for the sake of my children.

 

[AVB 2]

I don't believe He is controlling everything at this time. In Matthew 6:10, Christ tells His disciples to pray "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." The mere fact that Christ asks them to pray it means that Matthew 6:10 is in fact God's perfect Will. But we do not see heaven on earth yet. Therefore, some of God's perfect Will is not being done at this time. The fact that Christ asks His disciples to pray that, means they have a role in some of that being done.
If the Holy Spirit draws men during the preaching of the Gospel to repentance, then from the non-Calvinist POV they are saved and born-again at the same time. Are you saying the Holy Spirit cannot do this? Acts 2:38-39 promises remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who repent and are baptized in response to his preaching. Those two things may be considered as being equivalent to being both born-again and saved.

Nice song

God is absolutely sovereign. Always has been and always will be. The term "sovereign" (when applied to God or the Lord) is found 294 times in the scriptures so to say He is not sovereign is ludicrous. Plus can you imagine what a mess this world would be if satan were sovereign!

According to John 6:44 it is God the Father that draws the sinner and not the Holy Spirit. “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." I cannot find any scripture that says the Holy Spirit draws anyone to Christ.

There is something interesting in the Greek word translated “draw.” It is helkuo, which means “to drag” (literally or figuratively). Clearly, this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself is all on His part. Imagine for a moment a man flying a kite. The man runs into the wind and the wind picks the kite up into the air. The man controlling the kite pays out some of the string and the kite goes higher and higher. Eventually the man tires of flying the kite so he draws the kite back to himself. The kite has no choice but to be drawn. The kite may fight against being drawn and the wind may make the drawing difficult but the kite nevertheless will be drawn back home.

Thanks for the approval of the song. Arminians would sing it, but not Calvinists!

 

[John Mullally]

Why are we the faithful in Christ Jesus? Was it because we exercised our free will after we were physically born of a woman, or was it God who "chose us in Him (Christ) before the foundation of the world" as you quoted above? We are the faithful in Christ Jesus because He chose us, and now we are "holy and blameless before Him in love."

Another way to think of it is He predestined from the foundation of the world, that the "faithful in Jesus Christ" are blessed with all spiritual blessings. I get that from 1 Ephesians 1:1-6.

There are over 60 passages of scripture in the NT only that says that God (or Jesus) chooses us, has chosen us, or has elected us to salvation. There are zero that says we chose Him, or seek for Him by an act of our free will. Our free will is diametrically opposed to God's revealed will. Eve used her free will in the Garden and left the mess we are in now. David used his free will to have an affair with Bathsheba, then used his free will to have her husband murdered. Joseph's brothers by their free will sold Joseph into slavery and lied to their father. Jonah used his free will to go east instead of west rather than following God's will.

Assuming that God did decree from the beginning exactly who and who are not elect, you don't know who they are and you could be self-deceived. So what practical applications come from this knowledge?

 

[zoidar]

I may be wrong, but I think Mark was trying to get you to see the only answer is the one Scripture gives: the sovereign choice of God for his purpose and pleasure.

For me it's not a dilemma, it is simply God's sovereign will.

I like to understand things. Not believe just for the sake of believing.

 

[AVB 2]

Another way to think of it is He predestined from the foundation of the world, that the "faithful in Jesus Christ" are blessed with all spiritual blessings. I get that from 1 Ephesians 1:1-6.

Assuming that God does decree exactly who and who are not elect, you don't know who they are and you could be self-deceived concerning yourself. So what practical applications come from this knowledge?

We have been blessed because we were chosen in Christ by God. We did not choose God or Christ by our free will, Romans 3:11 makes that perfectly clear, "no one seeks for God." see also Psalm 14:1-3 and Psalm 53:1-3 which both state the same thing that Romans 3:11 states.

How do I know I am one of the elect? Facts, faith and the evidence of a life transformed by the power of God. Those who knew me before I received Christ, avoid me like I have the plague. My brothers in Christ stick to me like glue to paper.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I count Repentance (which requires man's consent) three times in Ezekiel 18:30-32. In verse 31, receiving a new heart or spirit (which only God can do) does not precede repentance - which contradicts the Calvinist "Total Depravity" doctrine.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”​

So you have often enough said. I get your point, but I do not see it as you do. I could likely find and quote as many and as good references that sound like Ezekiel 18 as you do. But they do not say to me that the repentance logically preceeds the ability to repent, nor that repentence is even possible, nor true, apart from the work of God in regenerating the will of man.


We have many many times on this site argued the question, and gotten nowhere. Again, the fact that the two are concurrent does not imply a cause-effect relationship. In fact, I could show you that even as I say that God does not consult us to give us new birth, I can say that he drives us through what you might call prevenient grace, but I call regeneration, in a "partial" (from our point of view) work upon us. But it is only "partial" from our time-dependent latticework —that is not God's POV. Grace is the operative principle here, as far as our theology. That does not preclude the fact that man does indeed act, and even that man's will can respond to God's call, but only that man's act does not change or improve God's act.

There simply is no strength to man, that what he does of himself counts toward what God does. GRACE by definition prohibits it, and reason precludes it. It is as simple as the fact that no number can approach infinity.

Man cannot add to God.

 

[Clare73]

The term "born again" (or "born from above" which I prefer) is used for the very first time in scripture in John 3:3. The response of Nicodemus is indicative of his surprise at Christ's statement. He had never heard the phrase prior to that night.

I'm not sure if the OT saints were "born from above" in the New Testament sense or way, but I do believe they were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world as stated in Ephesians 1:4.

I think they were regenerate with a righteousness from God (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21) by faith in the Promise (Jesus Christ, Genesis 15:5; Galatians 3:16), as was Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

 

[John Mullally]

We have been blessed because we were chosen in Christ by God. We did not choose God or Christ by our free will, Romans 3:11 makes that perfectly clear, "no one seeks for God." see also Psalm 14:1-3 and Psalm 53:1-3 which both state the same thing that Romans 3:11 states.

I can only agree that we do not seek God and we are led by the Holy Spirit during the preaching of the Gospel.

How do I know I am one of the elect? Facts, faith and the evidence of a life transformed by the power of God. Those who knew me before I received Christ, avoid me like I have the plague. My brothers in Christ stick to me like glue to paper.

Good Testimony.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Piper & MacArthur teach that God decrees all things that happen on earth - even the evil (including rape, murder, people going to hell), and yet purport that God desires all to be saved. That is better than what?

Like Jonah said, "...you are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger, with much kindness, and relenting of evil.” There is an obvious (by the grammar and use of language) implication here that God, apart from his kindness, mercy and patience, would have immediately destroyed all wrongdoing.

Also, we note, Christ asking 'if it were possible' to not undergo the crucifixion. He didn't like it. He didn't want to do it. He was not happily anticipating it. But he did want whatever God decreed to be done, and he could not have the one without the other.

So it is with him desiring all to be saved, in the sense that apparently Piper and MacArthur use it. In plainly human terms, or as humans think, he wishes it could be, but has determined otherwise, as is necessary for the completion of his particular creation —the Bride of Christ.

 

[Clare73]

I like to understand things. Not believe just for the sake of believing.

I feel that I do understand. . .God is sovereign, and I have no issue with all that it means.

Fire is hot. . .and I have no issue with all that it means.
Gravity is law. . .and I have no issue with all that it means

 

[John Mullally]

So you have often enough said. I get your point, but I do not see it as you do. I could likely find and quote as many and as good references that sound like Ezekiel 18 as you do. But they do not say to me that the repentance logically preceeds the ability to repent, nor that repentence is even possible, nor true, apart from the work of God in regenerating the will of man.

If you don't want this to continue, than don't answer this:

Show me an example from scripture when God changes a persons heart without them saying yes to Him in some way first. John 3:8 is the closest I can find, but technically it does not say that.​

 

[Clare73]

If you don't want this to continue, than don't answer this:

Show me an example from scripture when God changes a persons heart without them saying yes to Him in some way first. John 3:8 is the closest I can find, but technically it does not say that.​

Which does not preclude the Holy Spirit giving that person to prefer God's will, which is why that person said yes to him, and which is also in agreement with John 3:3-8.

 

[AVB 2]

Like Jonah said, "...you are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger, with much kindness, and relenting of evil.” There is an obvious (by the grammar and use of language) implication here that God, apart from his kindness, mercy and patience, would have immediately destroyed all wrongdoing.

Also, we note, Christ asking 'if it were possible' to not undergo the crucifixion. He didn't like it. He didn't want to do it. He was not happily anticipating it. But he did want whatever God decreed to be done, and he could not have the one without the other.

So it is with him desiring all to be saved, in the sense that apparently Piper and MacArthur use it. In plainly human terms, or as humans think, he wishes it could be, but has determined otherwise, as is necessary for the completion of his particular creation —the Bride of Christ.

God's two wills. Acts 2:23 “Jesus, was delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, whom you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.”

On the cross, the Revealed Will and the Secret Will of God collided. According to God's revealed will He allowed his secret will to be violated in order that the greater purpose of his glory, in the saving of his people, might be accomplished. So we learn this principle, sometimes God does that which he hates (in the case of Jesus’ murder) in order to accomplish his greater good plan. On one hand, morally, God never wills that any should perish (1 Tim 2:4) yet, in the greater scheme of things, his goodness and justice is seen more brightly and rightly if some do in fact perish. So He sovereignty wills their perishing. In having holy justice occur upon the perishing the true heinousness of sin is shown.

In saving some from perishing, the true and deep nature of his mercy and love is shown. Thus once again, as with Jesus on the cross, we have God doing that which on one hand he hates, in order to on the other hand accomplish the greater good of his glory.

We know that it was not the 'will of God' that Judas and Pilate and Herod and the Gentile soldiers and the Jewish crowds disobey the revealed law of God by sinning in delivering Jesus up to be crucified. But we also know that it was the will of God that this come to pass. Therefore we know that God in some sense wills what he does not will in another sense.

Gen 50:20 Here God's revealed will to Joseph's brothers was that they should love him and not steal from him or sell him into slavery or make plans to murder him, nor lie to their father about what happened to him. But God's secret will was that in the disobedience of Joseph's brothers a greater good would be done when Joseph, having been sold into slavery into Egypt, gained authority over the land and was able to save his entire family.

Non-Calvinists claim that the reason why all are not saved is that God wills to preserve the free will of man more than he wills to save everyone. But is this not also making a distinction in two aspects of the will of God? On the one hand God wills that all be saved (1 Tim. 2:5-6; 2 Peter 3:9), but on the other hand he wills to preserve man's absolutely free choice. In fact, he wills the second thing more than the
first. But this means that non-Calvinists also must say that 1 Timothy 2:5-6 and 2 Peter 3:9 do not say that God wills the salvation of everyone in an absolute or unqualified way, they too must say that the verses only refer to one kind or one aspect of God's will.