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Why are threads on Christian universalism so popular?

Saint Steven

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Very interesting way to look at The Book of Revelation!
Agree.
However, I'm not sure the introduction to the book gives us that option.
Though, as a reaction to the mysteries contained therein, handling it that way makes practical sense.

Revelation 1:1-3 NIV
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
 
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ozso

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That's a good point for discussion.
If the account of Adam and Eve and the serpent and the tree are symbolic, how does that align with the Fall of humankind and the one transgression that caused it?

Well from a personal perspective I'd say more that it contains symbolism rather than being entirely symbolic. I have no doubt that whatever the exact circumstances might have been, Adam disobeyed God.
 
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Saint Steven

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Well from a personal perspective I'd say more that it contains symbolism rather than being entirely symbolic. I have no doubt that whatever the exact circumstances might have been, Adam disobeyed God.
Right.
If "Adam" wasn't the first man, it causes all sorts of theological and doctrinal issues. (I'm interested to hear another view on this)
The symbolism may have been developed as part of the oral tradition that existed prior to the "writing" of the book of Genesis.

Apologies to @Hmm for hijacking your topic.
 
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ozso

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For example when I was young reading Genesis I didn't understand why Ham seeing his father (Noah) naked was such a big deal. Then I learned that it's widely believed that was a euphemism for Ham having committed incest with his mother (Noah's wife) which resulted in the birth of Canaan. Which is why Noah said “Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers.”
 
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Leaf473

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Agree.
However, I'm not sure the introduction to the book gives us that option.
Though, as a reaction to the mysteries contained therein, handling it that way makes practical sense.

Revelation 1:1-3 NIV
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
Well... (and of course we're speaking in very general terms here) I think it has to be an option given the opening.

It says the time is near, and that was a long time ago.
 
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BNR32FAN

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It's an interesting idea, God getting what he wants or not.

In the larger sense, I think God wanted to create humans who had the capacity to disobey him. And to know the difference between good and evil, if it came to that.

So in that sense, God got what he wanted.

Does he want humans to experience the pain and suffering that they do today? No, in that sense he isn't getting what he wants.

Is he motivated to figure out a way to create kids who can disobey him and at the same time not have to torture or kill them? I think so, and I think it's possible that he will.

Except the Bible tells us that all won’t. The gate is narrow and few find it.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Then again,God may be taking the long view, being that time essentially means nothing to Him. It's kinda like knowing that I-40 will take you to California even though right now you're still in Arkansas. From God's perspective, He can see Arkansas and California at the same time. (Yeah, I know, people generally find my analogies impenetrable, but I don't think that's entirely my fault.) Johnny heaves a rock through the window, and the neighbors declare that the poor parents have failed and Johnny will certainly be hanged by the time he's 18. Fast foward 70 years, and bad little Johnny is acclaimed by all as a genius and a saint. Perspective, right?

That would be a nice explanation but it doesn’t fit the situation since we’re talking about many individuals so it would be more like saying that all roads lead to California except the map we’ve been given by God doesn’t show that.
 
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BNR32FAN

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know we are a living soul as genesis teaches- there are souls in both heaven and hell and they are not destroyed they are eternal. the soul that sins shall die not be annihilated. death does not mean cease to exist as Jesus taught with the rich man and lazarus in Abrahams bosom

hope this helps !!!

That story doesn’t give evidence against annihilation because Hades and Hell are two completely different places. Hades is the place in Sheol where the wicked go to wait until judgement day. Hell is the lake of fire where the people in Hades will go after judgement day. Some verses support annihilation some support eternal torment, so it’s really hard to say. And the word “die” is used in so many different ways in the scriptures that it’s hard to know exactly which meaning is being used.
 
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BNR32FAN

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If death is already defeated why does Jesus say the last enemy to be defeated is death? I still see a lot of enemies still not defeated.

Christ detested death but He didn’t annihilate him. Death will be abolished, annihilated, in the lake of fire after judgement day.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Is he motivated to figure out a way to create kids who can disobey him and at the same time not have to torture or kill them? I think so, and I think it's possible that he will.

Well your certainly entitled to you opinion but opinions and scriptural dogma are two different things and is typically what separates universalists from traditional believers.
 
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Leaf473

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Except the Bible tells us that all won’t. The gate is narrow and few find it.
Well, the Bible is a big book, and it says a lot of things.

Is God bound by our interpretation of the Bible, or by his?
 
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Jipsah

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the word “die” is used in so many different ways in the scriptures that it’s hard to know exactly which meaning is being used.
So the common practice is simpl to replace it with whatever word best fits your doctrine.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Well, the Bible is a big book, and it says a lot of things.

Is God bound by our interpretation of the Bible, or by his?

That’s why we study it constantly, and your right God is not bound to our interpretation but interpretation cannot directly contradict what is actually written because God is bound to what He actually wrote.
 
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BNR32FAN

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So the common practice is simpl to replace it with whatever word best fits your doctrine.

Doctrine is interpretation that is supported by scripture and at the same time doesn’t contradict scripture. It is not interpretation that may coincide with a few cherry picked verses yet contradicts other verses.
 
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Leaf473

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Well your certainly entitled to you opinion but opinions and scriptural dogma are two different things and is typically what separates universalists from traditional believers.
I hear what you're saying. I'd say it was a difference in scriptural interpretation, but same idea.
 
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Leaf473

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That’s why we study it constantly, and your right God is not bound to our interpretation but interpretation cannot directly contradict what is actually written because God is bound to what He actually wrote.
True, assuming that the Bible is to be read similar to the way we read an instruction manual.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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That story doesn’t give evidence against annihilation because Hades and Hell are two completely different places. Hades is the place in Sheol where the wicked go to wait until judgement day. Hell is the lake of fire where the people in Hades will go after judgement day. Some verses support annihilation some support eternal torment, so it’s really hard to say. And the word “die” is used in so many different ways in the scriptures that it’s hard to know exactly which meaning is being used.
If hell is the lake of fire how does it get thrown into the lake of fire?
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Except the Bible tells us that all won’t. The gate is narrow and few find it.
Your making the assumption that the gate you are talking about is heaven or hell, it may be life now or death now. In Christ we have life now and few find it, death is the natural state of those without Jesus and that is most of humanity. I am a UR guy and I see it that Jesus gives us life now not just in the afterlife, but those without Jesus live in death now. So it depends on how you read and understand the scripture.
 
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Der Alte

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* * * And I've seen your walls of text * * *
Since you can't respond to me with anything like common courtesy, referring to my exegesis as a wall of text, there is no point in continuing.
 
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Der Alte

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If hell is the lake of fire how does it get thrown into the lake of fire?
Good point. This is one of those vss. which gets yanked way out of context to support various heterodox views.
The lake of fire passages, in context. Death thrown into the LOF about half way down highlighted in red.

Revelation 2:11 'Whoever has an ear should listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.
Rev 20:6 This
is the first resurrection. 6 and ho1y is the one who has part in the first resurrection! Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests” of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight and by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who expressed adoration to his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
2 And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And
death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
…..The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later, in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF.
Three living, sentient, beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 does say death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which are sentient beings and can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
My name for these two sentient beings are “the angel of death” and “the demon of hell.” Feel free to call them whatever you want. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….More verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new,” vs. 5.
No more death” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says eight groups of the unrighteous “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still] the second death.”
If there is “no more death” after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.
 
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