What denominations believe in the Rapture?

[DragonFox91]

Riley, why are you interested in this?

 

[BobRyan]

I looked at some Catholic resources and they do believe in a post-trib rapture:

Do Catholics believe in the rapture?

"Strictly speaking, Catholics do believe in a form of “rapture:” a bodily assumption into heaven of all the faithful, both living and dead, at Jesus' second and final coming and judgement. This will be preceded by the appearance of the Antichrist and an associated period of intense persecution of Christians known as the tribulation."

Do Catholics believe in the Rapture?

"According to Paul, at the appointed time and as quickly as “a blink of an eye” (1 Cor. 15:52), the dead would rise. Then the living would be snatched up or carried off immediately afterward in order to meet Christ in the clouds (1 Thess. 4:16-17). In the Vulgate, the early Latin Bible, the word used for God’s plucking us up into the sky was rapiemur, from which we derive the word “rapture.” To understand what would happen next, we must grasp the ancient idea of parousia."

I am interested in knowing the details about that.

Do Catholics believe in the 1000 year millennium and is the rapture described above a prim-mill rapture?

 

[The Liturgist]

unless you can show that the sleep state in 1 Thess 4:13-18 needs to be "deleted" to have the rapture.

Why would I want to show that?

Some of those are listed as evangelical.

Only nominally. In no sense does the ELCA or the LCMS represent what one might call “Evangelicalism” per se, which is a distinct theological movement from Lutheranism without the emphasis on a “crisis conversion” and with the strong sacramental theology that characterizes Lutheranism.

Now traditionally, Lutherans have called themselves evangelical, however, their use of the term is different from the meaning of Evangelical as a denominational descriptor applied to various newer Protestant churches that embrace the somewhat pietistic theological model of Evangelicalism, which stresses crises conversions or conversion experiences, the witnessing of being born again, a low view of the sacraments, and other things which set it apart.

So back to my question to you - what denomination claims Jesus comes to take the saints to heaven at the end of the world --
ie the rapture as affirmed by Evangelical groups - that is not evangelical??

So the rapture normally defined is the Futurist eschatology as outlined by John Nelson Darby based on a novel interpretation of certain eschatological texts in Scripture. This represents a minority view held by certain denominations and non-denominational churches, which generally can be characterized as either Evangelical, Pentecostal or Calvinist, but which in general subscribe to some of the ideas held by the Plymouth Brethren (although certainly not all; the Plymouth Brethren, in particular, the Exclusive brethren, do posess as a denomination a number of distinctives). What you call the rapture is a similar but not entirely identical belief held by the SDA, which in many respects resembles the doctrine of John Nelson Darby, but in other respects reflects the unique doctrines of the SDA.

You have claimed this is almost all denominations in a recent post here - and do not explain how that can possibly be.

I certainly did not claim that almost all denominations believe in a rapture. The fact is the majority do not ascribe to a doctrine that in any respect resembles that of the Plymouth Brethren.

 

[The Liturgist]

Do Catholics believe in the 1000 year millennium and is the rapture described above a prim-mill rapture?

What is described above is not a “rapture” per se and Roman Catholics like most Christian denominations reject Chiliasm. Indeed, the clause in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381 “and His kingdom shall have no end” was intended specifically as a rejection of the idea of a one thousand year kingdom of Christ; the early Church was forced to wrestle with this question in the late fourth century when analyzing the heterodox group known as the Apollinarians, who in addition to a serious Christological error also believed in a Chiliast or pre-millenarian eschaton, and this construct was rejected as being, according to the Constantinopolitan fathers, overly literal and carnal.

 

[BobRyan]

@tall73 do any of those passages refer to the rapture as understood today?

1 Thess 4:3-18 does -- and he did quote from vs 16 in that post

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
unless you can show that the sleep state in 1 Thess 4:13-18 needs to be "deleted" to have the rapture.

Why would I want to show that?
.

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[BobRyan]

delete

 

[BobRyan]

These refer to the general resurrection but not the 19th century Darbyite doctrine of the Rapture, which as @ewq1938 pointed out, is not accepted by Roman Catholics (or traditional churches more broadly, such as Lutherans, most Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians and other Protestant denominations, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Old Catholics, etc).

Some of those are listed as evangelical.

So back to my question to you - what denomination claims Jesus comes to take the saints to heaven at the end of the world -- ie the rapture as affirmed by Evangelical groups - that is not evangelical?? You have claimed this is almost all denominations in a recent post here - and do not explain how that can possibly be.

Only nominally. In no sense does the ELCA or the LCMS represent what one might call “Evangelicalism” per se

So I said "some of those" referring to Presbyterian and other groups.

 

[BobRyan]

What is described above is not a “rapture” per se and Roman Catholics like most Christian denominations reject Chiliasm. Indeed, the clause in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381 “and His kingdom shall have no end” was intended specifically as a rejection of the idea of a one thousand year kingdom of Christ; the early Church was forced to wrestle with this question in the late fourth century when analyzing the heterodox group known as the Apollinarians, who in addition to a serious Christological error also believed in a Chiliast or pre-millenarian eschaton, and this construct was rejected as being, according to the Constantinopolitan fathers, overly literal and carnal.

so then no 1000 year period as we see in Rev 20 - but still what does that do to the Catholic idea of "rapture" ? does it happen "tomorrow" ( as in any day now) or ?? And what is left on Earth when Jesus comes and takes all the saints to heaven in a literal return to Earth in the Catholic doctrine of "rapture"?

 

[BobRyan]

What you call the rapture is a similar but not entirely identical belief held by the SDA, .

Are you thinking that what I am calling the rapture is not precisely what the SDA denomination teaches?? what leads you to that conclusion??

 

[tall73]

Some of those are listed as evangelical.

So back to my question to you - what denomination claims Jesus comes to take the saints to heaven at the end of the world -- ie the rapture as affirmed by Evangelical groups - that is not evangelical?? You have claimed this is almost all denominations in a recent post here - and do not explain how that can possibly be.

This appears to be the post you are referencing:

Umm what? I think I must be misunderstanding you, because the doctrine of most churches is that Christians go to Heaven for some period of time. It is not our Eschatological final destination as far as we are aware, but our repose in Heaven pending the Eschaton is the ancient faith of the very early church. Indeed the saints are there now, because they are alive in Christ.

He will have to clarify, but he says Christians go to heaven PENDING the eschaton.

He seems to be saying that at death they go to heaven, pending the end.

 

[The Liturgist]

He will have to clarify, but he says Christians go to heaven PENDING the eschaton.

He seems to be saying that at death they go to heaven, pending the end.

That is correct. That is the faith of the early church. I don’t think @BobRyan understood my previous post.

 

[The Liturgist]

Are you thinking that what I am calling the rapture is not precisely what the SDA denomination teaches?? what leads you to that conclusion??

No, rather, I am saying the SDA doctrine of the Rapture appears to be, at least on the surface, variated in some key respects as the doctrine as first proposed by John Nelson Darby.

 

[ewq1938]

I am interested in knowing the details about that.

Do Catholics believe in the 1000 year millennium and is the rapture described above a prim-mill rapture?

My understanding is that Catholics are Post-Trib Amillennialists. The earliest identified Amillennialist was a presbyter in Rome in the third century, named Gaius, who also opposed the canonization of the book of Revelation.

 

[ewq1938]

What is described above is not a “rapture” per se and Roman Catholics like most Christian denominations reject Chiliasm. Indeed, the clause in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381 “and His kingdom shall have no end” was intended specifically as a rejection of the idea of a one thousand year kingdom of Christ

Premillennialism doesn't believe the kingdom or his reign ends. We believe the rod of iron rule over the nations ends. This is a case where the doctrine and what it believes has been misrepresented.

 

[The Liturgist]

Premillennialism doesn't believe the kingdom or his reign ends. We believe the rod of iron rule over the nations ends. This is a case where the doctrine and what it believes has been misrepresented.

My understanding is that Catholics are Post-Trib Amillennialists. The earliest identified Amillennialist was a presbyter in Rome in the third century, named Gaius, who also opposed the canonization of the book of Revelation.

Revelation, or the Apocalpyse of St. John as it is known in Roman Catholic circles, was an extremely controversial book in the fourth century, and I doubt it would have been included as canon if it had not been for the influence of St. Athanasius, who had enormous episcopal “street cred” (someone needs to do a meme with him wearing the sunglasses ) after his role at Nicaea, but I think he absolutely made the right call. Then the Roman church adopted his New Testament canon, and that ensured that Revelation would be in all our Bibles, although Martin Luther was himself not a fan, and wanted to remove it, along with Jude and Hebrews and especially James, fortunately, the most he could do is put them in the “antilegomenna.”

 

[The Liturgist]

Premillennialism doesn't believe the kingdom or his reign ends. We believe the rod of iron rule over the nations ends.

Indeed, this has been my experience with the majority of evangelical churches which embrace Premillenial Dispensationalism. The chiliast concept does however exist in some churches even now, where they believe that the 1,000 year reign will end, and there are also some churches which believe this period is in progress. The Apollinarians specifically believed it would end.

So my view is that those churches which believe as you do are not properly called Chiliast nor can they be said to hold a view that contradicts the Constantinopolitan creed.

This is a case where the doctrine and what it believes has been misrepresented.

Indeed, this happens a lot, sadly. For centuries, Lutherans have been accused of believing in Eucharistic consubstantiation or impanation, which they most definitely do not believe in; in rejecting the Scholastic model of the Eucharist they are not substituting an alternative, equally Aristotelian view. Even worse than that is what the Oriental Orthodox have had to endure, and were actually killed in large numbers over during the reign of Emperor Justinian, that being the entirely false allegation that they believe in Eutychian Monophysitism, when in fact they have always anathematized Eutyches and his doctrines.

 

[BobRyan]

No, rather, I am saying the SDA doctrine of the Rapture appears to be, at least on the surface, variated in some key respects as the doctrine as first proposed by John Nelson Darby.

Almost every evangelical we know of who believes in the rapture - has the same view of 1 Thess 4:13-18 being the appearing of Christ , resurrection of the saints, and translation of living and the dead - taken to heaven with Christ.

I am not aware of any good way to get around that fact.

 

[BobRyan]

My understanding is that Catholics are Post-Trib Amillennialists. The earliest identified Amillennialist was a presbyter in Rome in the third century, named Gaius, who also opposed the canonization of the book of Revelation.

but your post says they claim the rapture takes place then and God takes all the saints to heaven at that point - right?

 

[BobRyan]

What you call the rapture is a similar but not entirely identical belief held by the SDA, .

Are you thinking that what I am calling the rapture is not precisely what the SDA denomination teaches?? what leads you to that conclusion??

No, rather, I am saying the SDA doctrine of the Rapture appears to be, at least on the surface, variated in some key respects as the doctrine as first proposed by John Nelson Darby.

ok so you are saying my views on the rapture differ with Darby - not that my views differ with SDA doctrine?