Condemned already: not just Calvinist

[Der Alte]

[Previous post continued]

When Paul said "aionios" he meant "eternal.""everlasting,""unending" etc.
Paul used the word “aionios” eighteen [18] times. It is correctly translated “eternal/everlasting” 16 times and world only 2 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines/describes “aionios” as eternal.

[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite age life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)," a finite period, cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20, above, Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars unanimously agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aionios” synonymous with “aidios.” In this verse, by definition, “aionios” means eternal, everlasting etc.

[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​

In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” God is not going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an indeterminate age. The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios] ​

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite age, God cannot be “immortal” and exist only for a finite age at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios] ​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “aionios life” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite age,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “aion” and “aionios” with “immortal.” “Aion”/”aionios” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite age and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion”/”aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord. ​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite ‘age’ life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios/ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite age” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”

[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​

In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite age” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

Please feel free to try to refuter my conclusions. Quoting some "scholar" who has a different opinion does NOT refute my conclusions. What is required is some kind of credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical etc. evidence which conclusively shows anything I posted to be incorrect.

 

[TedT]

I did prove that Romans 1-18:20 is referring to after creation not before by pointing out that Paul specifically stated in verse 20 “for since creation”.

You claimed it - you did not prove it.

This interpretation fails on at least two counts:
1. Romans 1:20 then contradicts various verses:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. ...YET: The ordinary interpretation of Rom 1:20 is that here and now on earth the things of the Spirit of God are CLEARLY SEEN!

John 14:17
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.....

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Some things seems to be hidden that some people think are easily seen...but most do not even see this contradiction let alone try to resolve it!

2. Romans says they hold the truth in unrighteousness; they know the truth but ignore it: Rom 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

IF the mysteries of heaven not given to them, Matt 13:11, nor can they receive the Spirit of truth, John 14:17, nor can they discern the the things of the Spirit of God because they cannot discern spiritual things, 1 Corinthians 2:14... when and how can it ever be said the plain truth of GOD is known to them, Rom 1:18-19 ?? !!!

Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) Theology contends that from meaning since and therefore forcing the reference to the cosmos as the source of evidence, (aka the universal witness) is invalid because this rendering contradicts other verse which cannot be.

So we offer:
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; [they know what there is to know about GOD]
for God hath shewed it unto them.[because GOD proved HIMself to them]
For the invisible things of him [HIS divinity, HIS power and glory]

from [as in: the origin of this proof of HIS invisible attributes]
the creation of the world [that which provided the proof]

are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [the creation of the physical world]
even his eternal power and Godhead [HIS invisible attributes];
so that they are without excuse: [since they were there and saw HIS power and majesty when HE created the physical universe as is written in Job 38:7, they are without excuse when they face GOD's wrath even though they may not have heard the gospel preached here on earth.]

Why reject the universal witness of the study of HIS creation as the truth all men receive?

2. The failure of the Universal Witness
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
These lines are often called the Universal Witness to HIS power and glory and refer to their being evident when we study HIS creation...EXCEPT,

there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE IN HISTORY that any pagan who studied the nature of the cosmos ever came to believe in the power and glory of Jehovah! In fact, without Christian teachers explaining this doctrine, no one has ever taught it. Is this a great world wide conspiracy to deny that they had already understood Jehovah before the missionaries arrived with these verses??

Think of the Hindus and Buddhists whose study of the nature of reality proves they themselves to be of the divine essence and that they themselves will become fully divine in their day. Proof of Jehovah? Not hardly...

If their damnation depended upon this verse to PROVE their lack of excuse, they will live forever.

This lack of reality for this interpretation of this verse demands a new look at it from a new pov.

"...the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen," "being understood by the things that are made" implies that these damned souls saw the creation of the world that clearly showed to them the proof of the invisible things they previously rejected as lies, except this interpretation is never considered due to the bias orthodoxy has for the 'we are created on earth' theory.

PCE contends that ALL the sons of God, in existence before this time, SAW the creation of the physical universe with their own eyes, Job 38:7*, and learned by this act the truth of GOD's divinity and eternal power. Then the sinners amongst them (both the temporarily sinful elect and the eternally sinful reprobate demons) were flung to the earth, Rev 12:4&9, and constrained by their enslaving addiction to evil, lost their knowledge of this truth because of their love for evil, the essence of Rom 1:18+ to the end.

* Those who want to change the written words "ALL the sons of GOD" to angels in the vain attempt to support their preconceived theories that we are created here on earth will be ignored, not villefied...

 

[TedT]

So why is Jesus trying to save men who are going to be condemned and were these men capable of repentance in this world?

You find a contradiction because your premises are wrong...the word 'trying' gives it away.

 

[TedT]

Far be it from me to agree with @BNR32FAN nor to approve of his logical rigour, but Ted, you seem to in one post think PCE means Pre-Conception Existence, and in another Pre-Conception Election, as if either one proves the other, or as if they are essentially the same thing.

Hmmm, no one has confused existence and election together before so...they are connected but do not mean the same thing.

In our pre-earth existence we were asked by YHWH (Col 1:23) to be HIS Bride without proof of HIS deity or proof of the warnings of hell for those who rejected HIM nor proof of HIS ability to fulfill HIS promises of salvation and Brideship for those who believed HIM.

Election was essentially HIS promise to all of creation, ie, to all the sons of God mentioned in Job 38:7, that whomever put their faith in HIM as their GOD and saviour would be promised salvation and end in heaven as HIS bride.

Being passed over for election was reserved for those who rejected HIM as GOD or as a fit husband and rebuked HIM for lying and being a fase god.

 

[enoob57]

The old Mosaic covenant of Judaism and its exclusiveness with circumcised Jews being John's reference point

God never intended exclusivity but that the Jews would take the oracles of His Word to the world... John would never have thought this way as He was with the rest of the Disciples in Samaria... He knew by Christ's example exclusivity was error!

the "whole world" would mean not just the Jews anymore.

based on above your conclusions are not accurate...

Also if you have calvinistic glasses on you won't be able to see what is really being written here for sake of your developed doctrine...

The verse is saying Christ died for the sins of the whole world and anyone can turn to God by receiving His Word of truth...

 

[enoob57]

Which part of that do you suppose to disagree with what @Clare73 said?

My reply to Clare should answer your question put to me

 

[Clare73]

God never intended exclusivity but that the Jews would take the oracles of His Word to the world...

Jesus did not come to preach to the Gentiles, only to the Jews.

John would never have thought this way as He was with the rest of the Disciples in Samaria... He knew by Christ's example exclusivity was error!

Not talking about what John knew, I'm talking about what John's Jewish audience did not know.

based on above your conclusions are not accurate...

And since above regarding John is your incorrect assumption, it is your conclusions that are not accurate.

Also if you have calvinistic glasses on you won't
be able to see what is really being written here for sake of your developed doctrine...

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

The verse is saying Christ died for the sins of the whole world and anyone can turn to God by receiving His Word of truth...

Agreed. . .Christ did not die just for the Jews.

 

[Mark Quayle]

In our pre-earth existence we were asked by YHWH (Col 1:23) to be HIS Bride without proof of HIS deity or proof of the warnings of hell for those who rejected HIM nor proof of HIS ability to fulfill HIS promises of salvation and Brideship for those who believed HIM.

Collosians 1:23 says no such thing.

Election was essentially HIS promise to all of creation, ie, to all the sons of God mentioned in Job 38:7, that whomever put their faith in HIM as their GOD and saviour would be promised salvation and end in heaven as HIS bride.

Eisegesis. And badly so.

Being passed over for election was reserved for those who rejected HIM as GOD or as a fit husband and rebuked HIM for lying and being a fase god.

Your whole narrative is YOUR construction, a lens or filter, through which to interpret Scripture. You have yet to show any reference that actually supports PCE. For example, above you reference Job 38:7 that mentions the 'sons of God' and says they all shouted for joy, and somehow that magically means that the sons of God are, or do, whatever YOU think they are or do, and when you think they did it! Are you also a universalist, since it says they ALL shouted for joy?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You claimed it - you did not prove it.

This interpretation fails on at least two counts:
1. Romans 1:20 then contradicts various verses:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. ...YET: The ordinary interpretation of Rom 1:20 is that here and now on earth the things of the Spirit of God are CLEARLY SEEN!

John 14:17
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.....

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Some things seems to be hidden that some people think are easily seen...but most do not even see this contradiction let alone try to resolve it!

2. Romans says they hold the truth in unrighteousness; they know the truth but ignore it: Rom 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

IF the mysteries of heaven not given to them, Matt 13:11, nor can they receive the Spirit of truth, John 14:17, nor can they discern the the things of the Spirit of God because they cannot discern spiritual things, 1 Corinthians 2:14... when and how can it ever be said the plain truth of GOD is known to them, Rom 1:18-19 ?? !!!

Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) Theology contends that from meaning since and therefore forcing the reference to the cosmos as the source of evidence, (aka the universal witness) is invalid because this rendering contradicts other verse which cannot be.

So we offer:
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; [they know what there is to know about GOD]
for God hath shewed it unto them.[because GOD proved HIMself to them]
For the invisible things of him [HIS divinity, HIS power and glory]

from [as in: the origin of this proof of HIS invisible attributes]
the creation of the world [that which provided the proof]

are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [the creation of the physical world]
even his eternal power and Godhead [HIS invisible attributes];
so that they are without excuse: [since they were there and saw HIS power and majesty when HE created the physical universe as is written in Job 38:7, they are without excuse when they face GOD's wrath even though they may not have heard the gospel preached here on earth.]

Why reject the universal witness of the study of HIS creation as the truth all men receive?

2. The failure of the Universal Witness
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
These lines are often called the Universal Witness to HIS power and glory and refer to their being evident when we study HIS creation...EXCEPT,

there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE IN HISTORY that any pagan who studied the nature of the cosmos ever came to believe in the power and glory of Jehovah! In fact, without Christian teachers explaining this doctrine, no one has ever taught it. Is this a great world wide conspiracy to deny that they had already understood Jehovah before the missionaries arrived with these verses??

Think of the Hindus and Buddhists whose study of the nature of reality proves they themselves to be of the divine essence and that they themselves will become fully divine in their day. Proof of Jehovah? Not hardly...

If their damnation depended upon this verse to PROVE their lack of excuse, they will live forever.

This lack of reality for this interpretation of this verse demands a new look at it from a new pov.

"...the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen," "being understood by the things that are made" implies that these damned souls saw the creation of the world that clearly showed to them the proof of the invisible things they previously rejected as lies, except this interpretation is never considered due to the bias orthodoxy has for the 'we are created on earth' theory.

PCE contends that ALL the sons of God, in existence before this time, SAW the creation of the physical universe with their own eyes, Job 38:7*, and learned by this act the truth of GOD's divinity and eternal power. Then the sinners amongst them (both the temporarily sinful elect and the eternally sinful reprobate demons) were flung to the earth, Rev 12:4&9, and constrained by their enslaving addiction to evil, lost their knowledge of this truth because of their love for evil, the essence of Rom 1:18+ to the end.

* Those who want to change the written words "ALL the sons of GOD" to angels in the vain attempt to support their preconceived theories that we are created here on earth will be ignored, not villefied...

About 1 Corinthians 2:14 were the people Paul was speaking to in that verse spiritual? We’re they saved? Look what Paul says to these same people just 2 statements after verse 14.

“For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2:16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul says that they have the mind of Christ but look at his very next statement.

“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:1-3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So my question to you is we’re these Corinthians spiritual people? No, Paul specifically stated that they were not spiritual in 1 Corinthians 3:1 yet at the same time he also said they have the mind of Christ just before that statement. What he was saying to them in verse 14 is that only those who set their mind on the spirit can discern spiritual matters and those who do not set their mind on the spirit cannot. The Corinthian were capable of understanding spiritual matters but they weren’t setting their mind on the spirit which is why they were still stumbling in carnality. It’s the same as Christ saying “he who has ears to hear let him hear”. Those who want to listen will understand but those who are not interested and don’t want to listen will not. Even his apostles didn’t understand his parable and asked Him to explain it to them. He explained it to them because they were eager to understand and they asked Him to. Anyone who humbles their self to God will be accepted and God will reveal to them His will and guide them on the path to salvation but they must still choose whether or not they want to pay attention and whether or not they want to obey. No one is excluded from the opportunity of salvation and no one is condemned to the lake of fire while they are still alive. I didn’t become a Christian until I was 38 years old. I lived more than half my life as a reprobate. God’s judgement upon me at that time was condemnation until I received Christ then I was reconciled to Him thru Christ and transformed into a new creation, one that loves God and seeks to serve Him and do what pleases Him. There was nothing special about me that made me any different from every other sinner out there. I took it upon myself to humble myself to God and come to Him for help and He embraced me as His son and took me in and showed me The Way and He will do the same for everyone else out there who is willing to humble their self and come to Him. Everyone has a chance for salvation which is why Christ died for the world. He is not only the propitiation for our sins but the sins of the whole world. He did that so that everyone could be saved. He paid the price once and for all so that those who come to Him He will acknowledge before The Father and they will be allowed to enter Heaven and those who do not come to Him, He will deny before The Father and they will burn in the lake of fire.

 

[BNR32FAN]

John 14:17
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.....

This is referring to people who embrace the world and reject God because every single Christian who ever lived was worldly before they came to Christ.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You claimed it - you did not prove it.

Now your just turning a blind eye to the truth. You said Romans 1:18 was evidence to support Pre Conception Existence and I have proven that it does not because it refers to people “since creation”. Paul specifically said that in verse 20. So I have successfully proven that Romans 1:18-20 has nothing to do with anything that took place before creation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You find a contradiction because your premises are wrong...the word 'trying' gives it away.

Your dodging the questions I asked because they prove you wrong. Are you saying that God saves everyone He tries to save? Was Jesus trying to save those men in John 5:34 and will they be saved? It’s a simple honest question that should be easy to answer since the answers are right there in that chapter.

 

[TedT]

Collosians 1:23 says no such thing.

The verb proclaimed in this verse is apparently in a tense indicating an action finished in the past though it may be repeated in the future. Thus the meaning would be that the gospel was proclaimed to every person (creature as created being) under heaven (as referring to the fulness of creation, ie, everyone!) as a finished act! The finished nature of this proclamation means that it was done! It was so proclaimed to every person!

This has never been fulfilled again as a finished action on earth so the finished action spoken of here must have been pre-earth, in the heavens ie Sheol.

Eisegesis. And badly so.

The flim flam of eXegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Do you claim that about your theological beliefs? Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions.

So, for those who would like to take the time necessary to do the work of searching the Scriptures regarding this doctrine, I present the verses I do which witness to our pre-conception existence, along with some others which I feel make a lot more sense when they're interpreted in light of this doctrine.

Now, being that hardly anyone has searched the Scriptures in light of the pov of our pre-conception conception, these Scriptures have rarely been interpreted this way before. Therefore, it stands to reason that a study of these Scriptures will be new and that it will be fairly unique, that is, that almost all the other interpretations of the same Scriptures will be different with the weight of long standing acceptance.

In other words, any verse that conveys the idea of pre-earth existence has rarely been interpreted this way before because almost every exegete automatically sees a different interpretation when they read such a Scripture. This being the case, a mere list of Scriptures will not constitute proof of scriptural support for this doctrine but, to provide such proof, such a list will have to be accompanied by an in-depth explanation of the said Scriptures. Providing such a list without the accompanying new interpretation would only tend to prove to its searchers that this doctrine had no scriptural support, simply because they would tend to interpret the Scriptures against our pre-conception existence, in much the same way that everybody used to interpret the Scriptures as against the Christ King.

Now then, most people are going to find some of these verses difficult. Therefore, I suggest that folk not enter into them lightly, but be prepared to spend some time in some hard thinking and searching of the Scriptures. Without this preparation and commitment I doubt that you will be able to understand what I am trying to say, and if you can not understand what I am saying, how can you possibly inherit the blessings that only accompany such understanding?

Your whole narrative is YOUR construction, a lens or filter, through which to interpret Scripture.

Yes it is how I interpret the reality the scripture teaches, except I did not construct it but I was led to it and taught it...not that I can prove that to you.

I show a few verses here so you don't think I'm a complete lunatic, totally divorced from scripture. I don't dump every verse I can find, (some 3 dozen), so please understand this is just an intro so to speak. I also hope you understand that I don't claim these are PROOF verses that can't be argued. It is obvious that these verses have had their orthodox interpretations for centuries of which I am well aware. But they do contain alternative interpretations which should be answered as to how they fail if they are rejected as pce supports.

It is enough that others come to realize that the actual face value of the words in each verse CAN BE USED WITHOUT DISTORTION to promote PCE and in some cases are more true to the meaning of the words than the interpretation orthodoxy accepts.

I also repeat my desire for someone to find me a verse which claims or even hints that our pre-earth existence is impossible… After 12 years of asking, no one has found one yet.

Are you also a universalist, since it says they ALL shouted for joy?

No sir.
There can be various reasons, especially the greatness of HIS power, that would cause even the eternally sinful to be amazed at HIS glory...which wore off quickly enough. But I agree...if the Satanic were there they were probably howling in despair at this proof of HIS divinity which augered their damnation in hell.

I know that some people of HIS creation are NOT HIS sons/children: Deuteronomy 32:5 “They have corrupted themselves; They are not His children because of their blemish but a perverse and crooked generation.
OR
their blemish is that they are not HIS children.

World English Bible
They have dealt corruptly with him, [they are] not his children, [it is] their blemish. [They are] a perverse and crooked generation.
...due to their grievous evil.

Since I accept that the proof of HIS divinity in this way could only happen AFTER the free will decisions about HIM were finished and everyone's fate was set, then the reprobate and the sinful elect were self corrupted already when they all saw this display of HIS divinity and power.

If the unforgivable eternally evil ones were at this time considered to be NOT HIS children (though they were HIS creation) due to their sinning the unforgivable sin, then they would not necessarily be counted within the phrase ALL the sons of GOD who sang HIS praise which group would then include only the holy elect and the sinful elect.

Thus if you consider yourself to be an elect, you may have been there as a witness to the proof of HIS divinity and eternal power (Rom 1:20) along with the reprobate but you were singing your heart out in praise of HIM!

 

[TedT]

This is referring to people who embrace the world and reject God because every single Christian who ever lived was worldly before they came to Christ.

Please consider that John 14:17...the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him..... refers to the reprobate who sinned the unforgivable sin and so can never hear/accept the gospel because this verse can't refer to the sinful elect who obviously CAN and do receive Him by His grace.

 

[TedT]

Now your just turning a blind eye to the truth. You said Romans 1:18 was evidence to support Pre Conception Existence and I have proven that it does not because it refers to people “since creation”. Paul specifically said that in verse 20. So I have successfully proven that Romans 1:18-20 has nothing to do with anything that took place before creation.

So my post #122 is chopped liver?

Didn't read it , eh? Oh well, all the easier to reject then...

IF something is PROVEN, then there can be no argument against it. You have proven nothing just stated your opinion.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Please consider that John 14:17...the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him..... refers to the reprobate who sinned the unforgivable sin and so can never hear/accept the gospel because this verse can't refer to the sinful elect who obviously CAN and do receive Him by His grace.

What exactly does it mean to sin against the Holy Spirit?

 

[BNR32FAN]

So my post #122 is chopped liver?

Didn't read it , eh? Oh well, all the easier to reject then...

IF something is PROVEN, then there can be no argument against it. You have proven nothing just stated your opinion.

Your not giving an argument against it your dodging the argument. Romans 1:18-20 cannot refer to people before creation because Paul specifically stated “SINCE CREATION” in verse 20. That means AFTER CREATION, not before. You just can’t admit the truth when your proven wrong. Furthermore he goes on to write about how they turned away from God to idols of birds, four legged animals, and crawling creatures that DIDN'T EXIST BEFORE CREATION not to mention WHO MADE THOSE IDOLS IF NO ONE HAS BEEN CREATED?!! Your interpretation of that passage makes absolutely no sense at all.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So does that by extension mean unless a person obeys Christ into holiness they will also not enter Gods Kingdom?

What I mean is someone prays the sinners prayer but never changes their lifestyle, is such a person still going to heaven? Or is Heaven only for those who repent and obey the leading if the Spirit

This sounds like a flawed understanding of what salvation means and what God's kingdom refers to.

The "sinner's prayer" isn't historic or normative Christian practice or theology, it's a modern invention of the 19th century (look up Charles Finney and his "New Measures", which also gave us the Anxious Bench (aka the Altar Call). It's what is called "Decision Theology", wherein conversion is reduced to a moment in time when a person makes a decision to accept and follow Jesus. It's a very modern theological innovation, something that was completely unheard of in either Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant circles before the rise of Revivalism in the 18th and 19th centuries.

I would encourage people to look at the more historic Christian teachings about conversion. And also to do a deep dive in understanding the Law-Gospel dialectic of the Lutheran Reformation.

Essentially obedience does not merit salvation. Obedience is the lived-out righteousness of the person of faith; faith begets action, because through faith we are justified and given new life from God by the Spirit--and this life, lived in repentance and faith is always a work in progress. Our justification (that is, we are justified freely by God's grace on Christ's account) is entirely apart from our works--even our "yes" to God, it is entirely the work of God by His grace. Our "yes" to God is that we obey Him and therefore love our neighbor as He commands. Good works are not for God, but for our neighbor.

And each one of us who has been born anew of God is already in the kingdom; as the "place" where God's kingdom is found here on earth is in and through the Church. It is in the Gospel, it is in the Sacraments, it is in the love we are called to have for one another, in the humility and repentant life lived in good works for our neighbor--where the hungry are fed, the thirsty are given drink. The fullness of the kingdom is not until the End, when Christ returns and God makes all things new--and God will be all in all.

Recall Christ's Prayer, "Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." The kingdom isn't "up there" to be entered, it is come down "Repent and believe the good news, for the kingdom of God is at hand!"; down here not in glory, power, strength, and wisdom, and all those other vain things of this fallen, failing, dying world; but in the foolishness and weakness of the Cross and Calvary's Victim, which is the power and wisdom of God.

Holiness is given freely as grace; but the call to holiness is a matter of carrying our cross as disciples and learning to love, learning to live as Christ, and therefore learning also that to die is gain. Holiness, in this, is its own reward; just as the reward of good works is not that we get something in heaven, or blessings in this life, or have a better anything in the Age to Come. The reward of good works is the good works themselves. As if we are taking Jesus seriously, we are learning that all our priorities, all of our assumptions, all of our values have to radically change and be changed. "You have heard it said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, by I say to you do not even retaliate against an evil person; if you are struck on the right cheek turn and offer the other as well."

If we set our eyes on prizes, we'll remain blind with vanity.
If we set our eyes upon the cross, we will, by the grace of God, learn to dwell with and in that cross.

"The greatest among you is your slave."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BNR32FAN]

Calvinism is not the only theology that sees some sinners as condemned before conception. The theology of our Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) contends that all persons created in HIS image were created before the creation of the physical universe* with a free will and an equal ability and rtunity to put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour to become HIS elect chosen ones
OR
with an equal ability and opportunity to put their faith against HIM as being a liar and therefore a false god, ignoring HS warning this would be an unforgivable sin
and that if HE ever proved that HE is their creator god, this unforgivable sin would put them in hell forever.

* which they saw as per Job 38:7 with Rom 1:18-20.

People only become sinful by choosing by their free will to rebuke YHWH as a liar or by rebelling against HIS commands if they accepted HIM as their GOD.
No one inherits another's sin.
No one dies for another's sin.
Only sinners (either elect sinners or non-elect sinners) are born as human, ie are sown into this world by the Son of Man or the devil, Matt 13:36-39.

OUR decisions about where to put our faith separated us into the elect who put their faith in HIM, the damned already who repudiated HM by faith and the sinful elect who rebelled against HIS call to come out from among their friends who were now condemned so the judgement could proceed but they would not and the judgement was forced into postponement:
Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to the explanation of this parable, ie, no more metaphor, in verses 36-39]

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’[to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the wheat and the only maturity that saves a sinner from the judgment is a mature holiness!

Thus the sins of the good seed, aka the sheep gone astray into sin, separated them from the holy elect and are the cause of the continued suffering of mankind on this earth under Satan.

PCE also contends that rather than GOD having NO reason to elect some and pass over others as some Calvinists clam, HE chose those who put their faith in HIM to be elected to salvation no matter how they might sin in the future and to be HIS Bride after this reality was cleansed from all evil. HE also passed over for salvation all those who repudiated HIM as a false god driven by an evil megalomania as for ever unfit to ever be a proper Bride for HIM, consigning them to hell on the spot.

AS you can see this is hardly Calvinism at all, until we get to the salvation of sinners which is pretty straight forward orthodoxy.

This was determined to be heretical at the 5th ecumenical council in 553.

 

[RickReads]

This sounds like a flawed understanding of what salvation means and what God's kingdom refers to.

The "sinner's prayer" isn't historic or normative Christian practice or theology, it's a modern invention of the 19th century (look up Charles Finney and his "New Measures", which also gave us the Anxious Bench (aka the Altar Call). It's what is called "Decision Theology", wherein conversion is reduced to a moment in time when a person makes a decision to accept and follow Jesus. It's a very modern theological innovation, something that was completely unheard of in either Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant circles before the rise of Revivalism in the 18th and 19th centuries.

I would encourage people to look at the more historic Christian teachings about conversion. And also to do a deep dive in understanding the Law-Gospel dialectic of the Lutheran Reformation.

Essentially obedience does not merit salvation. Obedience is the lived-out righteousness of the person of faith; faith begets action, because through faith we are justified and given new life from God by the Spirit--and this life, lived in repentance and faith is always a work in progress. Our justification (that is, we are justified freely by God's grace on Christ's account) is entirely apart from our works--even our "yes" to God, it is entirely the work of God by His grace. Our "yes" to God is that we obey Him and therefore love our neighbor as He commands. Good works are not for God, but for our neighbor.

And each one of us who has been born anew of God is already in the kingdom; as the "place" where God's kingdom is found here on earth is in and through the Church. It is in the Gospel, it is in the Sacraments, it is in the love we are called to have for one another, in the humility and repentant life lived in good works for our neighbor--where the hungry are fed, the thirsty are given drink. The fullness of the kingdom is not until the End, when Christ returns and God makes all things new--and God will be all in all.

Recall Christ's Prayer, "Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." The kingdom isn't "up there" to be entered, it is come down "Repent and believe the good news, for the kingdom of God is at hand!"; down here not in glory, power, strength, and wisdom, and all those other vain things of this fallen, failing, dying world; but in the foolishness and weakness of the Cross and Calvary's Victim, which is the power and wisdom of God.

Holiness is given freely as grace; but the call to holiness is a matter of carrying our cross as disciples and learning to love, learning to live as Christ, and therefore learning also that to die is gain. Holiness, in this, is its own reward; just as the reward of good works is not that we get something in heaven, or blessings in this life, or have a better anything in the Age to Come. The reward of good works is the good works themselves. As if we are taking Jesus seriously, we are learning that all our priorities, all of our assumptions, all of our values have to radically change and be changed. "You have heard it said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, by I say to you do not even retaliate against an evil person; if you are struck on the right cheek turn and offer the other as well."

If we set our eyes on prizes, we'll remain blind with vanity.
If we set our eyes upon the cross, we will, by the grace of God, learn to dwell with and in that cross.

"The greatest among you is your slave."

-CryptoLutheran

Lofty words, yet I digress, Peter gave the first alter call recorded in the book of Acts long before Luthurs flawed attempt to reform Catholicism. The movement to return to 1st century Christianity is now a 584 million-strong group of full gospel believers and the fastest-growing segment of Christianity in the world.