Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

[Akita Suggagaki]

You keep saying this, despite scripture showing Gentiles are grafted into the Covenant Promise. I would not want to write myself out of the covenant, but we have free will.

There is a New Covenant. We are grafted into Christ.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There is a New Covenant. We are grafted into Christ.

According to plain scripture God's laws are written in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant Hebrews 8:10 instead of deleting them and Jesus is the Mediator of God's New Covenant promise that Gentiles are grafted into. Galatians 3:28-29 Colossians 3:11 Romans 11:11-24.

 

[Clare73]

So you're saying when Jesus said If you love Me, keep My commandments,
that means the opposite?

I give up. . .am I?
.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I give up. . .am I?
.

I quoted Jesus John 14:15 you said the scripture I quoted from Jesus was in conflict with Jesus Himself, so you tell me. Either Jesus means what He said John 14:15 and John, 1 John 5:3 and God Exodus 20:6 or it doesn't. I believe Jesus to say exactly what He meant just as John, and as God .

 

[Clare73]

Adventist are about the only ones these days want to keep some of Torah, especially the Sabbath. I think that is because the Gospels and so much of the New Testament is addressed to Jews and they read it as if addressed to gentiles.
The impact of the Cross on Torah for Jews had not yet been worked out in the NT.

Contraire. . .the Apostle Paul is very clear on the impact of the cross for Jewish Christians.

The impact on the Jews is quite simple:

"Whoever does not believe in the Son stands condemned already." (John 3:18)

"Whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:26)

Any other notions regarding the Jews not in agreement with the above are contra-Biblical and untrue.

 

[Clare73]

I quoted Jesus John 14:15 you said the scripture I quoted from Jesus was in conflict with Jesus Himself, so you tell me. Either Jesus means what He said John 14:15 and John, 1 John 5:3 and God Exodus 20:6 or it doesn't. I believe Jesus to say exactly what He meant just as John, and as God .

You tell me, you are the one who has set him against Matthew 22:37-40 along with Paul
in Romans 13:8-10.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You tell me, you are the one who has set him against Matthew 22:37-40 along with Paul
in Romans 13:8-10.

Jesus said, not SB in John 14:15 who does not contradict Himself in Matthew 22:37 and Jesus very clearly says, If we love Him keep His commandments and loving Him with all our heart is demonstrated when we keep the commandments, not by our disobedience. There is nowhere in scripture where Jesus says "do not" keep the commandments, but says the opposite- keep them. I'm going with Jesus, the apostles and God. Please do not try to spin what Jesus said out of His own mouth, as something I made up, like it came from me.

I'm not really liking this type of dialogue, so if you continue down this path its not something I plan on participating in.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I think most of us appreciate the life and saving work of Jesus. And like the early disciples we still discuss what it all means for us as we seek to live faithful lives. After 2,000 years and many Christian traditions we can agree that "Love"

Contraire. . .the Apostle Paul is very clear on the impact of the cross for Jewish Christians.

The impact on the Jews is quite simple:

"Whoever does not believe in the Son stands condemned already." (John 3:18)

"Whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:26)

Any other notions regarding the Jews not in agreement with the above are contra-Biblical and untrue.

I was referring to Jews following Christ and their relationship to OT Torah.

 

[expos4ever]

You keep saying this, despite scripture showing Gentiles are grafted into the Covenant Promise. I would not want to write myself out of the covenant, but we have free will.

Here's the problem: You assume that being grafted into "covenant membership" entails retention of the marker of covenant membership, namely the Law of Moses. We could, of course, be grafted into covenant membership with new markers for covenant membership. And that there are indeed such new markers is all over the New Testament.

Besides, the author of Ephesians decisively shows that the way the Gentile has been brought into covenant membership is by abolition of the Law:

Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who previously were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace;

How could this not be more clear: the Gentile is now part of the covenant precisely because the very thing that kept them on the outside - the Law of Moses that was only for Jews - has been set aside.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus said, not SB in John 14:15 who does not contradict Himself in Matthew 22:37 and Jesus very clearly says, If we love Him keep His commandments and loving Him with all our heart is demonstrated when we keep the commandments, not by our disobedience. There is nowhere in scripture where Jesus says "do not" keep the commandments, but says the opposite- keep them. I'm going with Jesus, the apostles and God. Please do not try to spin what Jesus said out of His own mouth, as something I made up, like it came from me.

I'm not really liking this type of dialogue, so if you continue down this path its not something I plan on participating in.

Agreed. . .setting Scripture against itself is never a good thing.

 

[Clare73]

Contraire. . .the Apostle Paul is very clear on the impact of the cross for Jewish Christians.
The impact on the Jews is quite simple:
"Whoever does not believe in the Son stands condemned already." (John 3:18)
"Whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:26)
Any other notions regarding the Jews not in agreement with the above are contra-Biblical and untrue.

I think most of us appreciate the life and saving work of Jesus. And like the early disciples we still discuss what it all means for us as we seek to live faithful lives. After 2,000 years and many Christian traditions we can agree that "Love"

I was referring to Jews following Christ and their relationship to OT Torah.

The Apostle Paul is very clear on the impact of the cross for the Jewish Christians, including their relationship to the Torah.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Agreed. . .setting Scripture against itself is never a good thing.

Than stop.

 

[Clare73]

Than stop.

Agreed. . .

 

[Guojing]

See Acts 15, where the contingent from Jerusalem required only circumcision, not the whole law.

Acts 15:1 says otherwise. If a male adult is willing to undergo such a painful change as physical circumcision, it is understood that he will have little issues following the rest of the Law.

 

[Guojing]

Paul certainly believes the law of Moses were abolished. And, again, the fact some Jews did not believe it was abolished is certainly not evidence that it was not, in fact, abolished.

Paul was given a new gospel from the ascended Christ himself (Galatians 1:11-12), for the gentiles, so obviously that was what he taught.

But those of the little flock, led by James and the elders, as Acts 21:18-25, which took place so many years after the cross, the Law was not abolished for the nation of Israel

 

[Clare73]

Acts 15:1 says otherwise. If a male adult is willing to undergo such a painful change as physical circumcision, it is understood that he will have little issues following the rest of the Law.

That's called reading into the Scriptures instead of reading out of the Scriptures, eisegesis instead of exegesis.
There's a lot of that in your theology.

It wasn't about the law, it was about the necessity of entering into the covenant of Abraham for salvation.

 

[Guojing]

That's called reading into the Scriptures instead of reading out of the Scriptures, eisegesis instead of exegesis.

It wasn't about the law, it was about the necessity of entering into the covenant of Abraham for salvation.

The Jewish believers who stated Acts 15:1, is quoting OT scriptures, such as Exodus 12:48-49, and Numbers 9:13-14.

But if you want to insist they are ONLY referring to physical circumcision, alright then, we can agree to disagree as usual.

 

[Clare73]

The Jewish believers who stated Acts 15:1, is quoting OT scriptures, such as Exodus 12:48-49, and Numbers 9:13-14.

And?

But if you want to insist they are ONLY referring to physical circumcision, alright then, we can agree to disagree as usual.

They are referring to Passover.

Exodus 12:48-49 related only to Passover.
Gentile converts were not required to observe Passover, but if they wished to do so, they had to be circumcised.

Numbers 9:13-14 related only to Hebrews (the circumcised), who were required to celebrate Passover, and without a legitimate reason for not doing so, were to be cut off from their people.

While Acts 15:1 states that circumcision (the sign of the covenant) was necessary for salvation (not the Passover).

 

[Guojing]

Exodus 12:48-49 related only to Passover.
Gentile converts were not required to observe Passover, but if they wished to do so, they had to be circumcised.
Numbers 9:13-14 related only to Hebrews, who were required to celebrate Passover, and without a legitimate reason for not doing so, were to be cut off from their people.

Acts 15:1 states that circumcision (the sign of the covenant) was necessary for salvation.

You ignored the last verse of each of the 2 passages.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Acts 15:1 states that circumcision (the sign of the covenant) was necessary for salvation.

Well actually it states:
Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them.

which led to the council outcome.