Exceptionally accurate and detailed prophesy concerning Jesus.

[Carl Emerson]

I just thought - many are not aware of this exceptional prophesy.

This is from the 'Wisdom of Solomon' which was included in the Judeo Cannon in Jesus day.

10 Let us oppress the poor righteous man, let us not spare the widow, nor reverence the ancient gray hairs of the aged. 11 Let our strength be the law of justice: for that which is feeble is found to be nothing worth. 12 Therefore let us lie in wait for the righteous; because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings: he upbraideth us with our offending the law, and objecteth to our infamy the transgressings of our education. 13 He professeth to have the knowledge of God: and he calleth himself the child of the Lord. 14 He was made to reprove our thoughts. 15 He is grievous unto us even to behold: for his life is not like other men’s, his ways are of another fashion. 16 We are esteemed of him as counterfeits: he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness: he pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed, and maketh his boast that God is his father. 17 Let us see if his words be true: and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him. 18 For if the just man be the son of God, he will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies. 19 Let us examine him with despitefulness and torture, that we may know his meekness, and prove his patience. 20 Let us condemn him with a shameful death: for by his own saying he shall be respected. 21 Such things they did imagine, and were deceived: for their own wickedness hath blinded them. 22 As for the mysteries of God, they knew them not: neither hoped they for the wages of righteousness, nor discerned a reward for blameless souls. 23 For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity. 24 Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: 25 and they that do hold of his side do find it.

This passage compares to Matthew 27:39-43.

Discussion and comment welcome...

 

[chevyontheriver]

I just thought - many are not aware of this exceptional prophesy.

This is from the 'Wisdom of Solomon' which was included in the Judeo Cannon in Jesus day.

10 Let us oppress the poor righteous man, let us not spare the widow, nor reverence the ancient gray hairs of the aged. 11 Let our strength be the law of justice: for that which is feeble is found to be nothing worth. 12 Therefore let us lie in wait for the righteous; because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings: he upbraideth us with our offending the law, and objecteth to our infamy the transgressings of our education. 13 He professeth to have the knowledge of God: and he calleth himself the child of the Lord. 14 He was made to reprove our thoughts. 15 He is grievous unto us even to behold: for his life is not like other men’s, his ways are of another fashion. 16 We are esteemed of him as counterfeits: he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness: he pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed, and maketh his boast that God is his father. 17 Let us see if his words be true: and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him. 18 For if the just man be the son of God, he will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies. 19 Let us examine him with despitefulness and torture, that we may know his meekness, and prove his patience. 20 Let us condemn him with a shameful death: for by his own saying he shall be respected. 21 Such things they did imagine, and were deceived: for their own wickedness hath blinded them. 22 As for the mysteries of God, they knew them not: neither hoped they for the wages of righteousness, nor discerned a reward for blameless souls. 23 For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity. 24 Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: 25 and they that do hold of his side do find it.

This passage compares to Matthew 27:39-43.

Discussion and comment welcome...

Very familiar with it. Chapter 2 of the book of Wisdom. It was part of the Septuagent and as such part of every Catholic and Orthodox Bible. It was just a little too obvious for those who later fixed the Jewish canon, and did so NOT in favor of Jesus and his followers. Some things had to be censored.

 

[Eloy Craft]

I'll bet those exact thoughts were in the minds of Jesus' enemies.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Very familiar with it. Chapter 2 of the book of Wisdom. It was part of the Septuagent and as such part of every Catholic and Orthodox Bible. It was just a little too obvious for those who later fixed the Jewish canon, and did so NOT in favor of Jesus and his followers. Some things had to be censored.

Sorry to be a little dull...

Can you explain this a bit more please...

 

[chevyontheriver]

Sorry to be a little dull...

Can you explain this a bit more please...

Sure. This part of Wisdom is SO OBVIOUS that it would be hard to read it and not think of Jesus. Right?

So if you are the Jewish authorities just after Jesus was crucified and you have rejected Jesus it's going to be hard not to reject the book of Wisdom. And to make sure that book doesn't make it into anyone's canon.

But why should Christians feel bound to an OT canon of Scripture established by the Jewish authorities when those same Jewish authorities rejected every book of the NT? And, as I am arguing, they rejected a chunk of the OT as well because some of the books were a bit too much about Jesus. Yes, they kept Isaiah and Micah, but those older books would have been super hard to delete. The newer books, the deuterocanonical books, were easier to surpress.

 

[Carl Emerson]

OK thanks for that - are you aware of other significant messianic prophesies ?

 

[chevyontheriver]

OK thanks for that - are you aware of other significant messianic prophesies ?

From Genesis 3:15, where the offspring of Eve will crush the serpent, to the very last book where in Malachi it tells of Elijah's return, the OT contains Jesus in all sorts of ways. It's the Fathers who are often the most observant about these messianic texts. If you have some modern reference text for these I'd be happy to hear of it.

 

[public hermit]

I just thought - many are not aware of this exceptional prophesy.

This is from the 'Wisdom of Solomon' which was included in the Judeo Cannon in Jesus day.

10 Let us oppress the poor righteous man, let us not spare the widow, nor reverence the ancient gray hairs of the aged. 11 Let our strength be the law of justice: for that which is feeble is found to be nothing worth. 12 Therefore let us lie in wait for the righteous; because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings: he upbraideth us with our offending the law, and objecteth to our infamy the transgressings of our education. 13 He professeth to have the knowledge of God: and he calleth himself the child of the Lord. 14 He was made to reprove our thoughts. 15 He is grievous unto us even to behold: for his life is not like other men’s, his ways are of another fashion. 16 We are esteemed of him as counterfeits: he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness: he pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed, and maketh his boast that God is his father. 17 Let us see if his words be true: and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him. 18 For if the just man be the son of God, he will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies. 19 Let us examine him with despitefulness and torture, that we may know his meekness, and prove his patience. 20 Let us condemn him with a shameful death: for by his own saying he shall be respected. 21 Such things they did imagine, and were deceived: for their own wickedness hath blinded them. 22 As for the mysteries of God, they knew them not: neither hoped they for the wages of righteousness, nor discerned a reward for blameless souls. 23 For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity. 24 Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: 25 and they that do hold of his side do find it.

This passage compares to Matthew 27:39-43.

Discussion and comment welcome...

I've always been fascinated by this text. I can remember the first time I read it; immediately I thought of Christ. It's unmistakable. Clearly, Matthew thought so, as well.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So why was the Wisdom of Solomon not included in the Cannon?

Was this the diamond in the rough ??

 

[public hermit]

So why was the Wisdom of Solomon not included in the Cannon?

Was this the diamond in the rough ??

I think it's partly because it's not part of the Jewish canon. Early Christians like Melito of Sardis considered it canonical, but Melito also helped establish our OT canon so I'm not sure how that worked. Later folks seemed to treat it as worthy of being read but not canonical. I really like that book, as a whole.

 

[chevyontheriver]

So why was the Wisdom of Solomon not included in the Cannon?

Was this the diamond in the rough ??

It IS in the canon. But of course our canons don't match up. It was in the Septuagent. As such it has been in constant use by Greek speaking Christians. It has been in the Catholic canon explicitly for 1700 years, ever since there was a fixed OT canon in the Church. But the Jewish authorities, after the time of Christ, decided that even though it was in the Septuagent, it should not be included in their canon. Too much Jesus.

When the Protestants re-examined everything, I think they chose the Jewish canon over the Catholic canon out of a deep suspicion of all things Catholic. They went with what they thought was the older Hebrew canon. I think that was a historical mistake, as the canon the Protestants went with was formed with a bias against Jesus Christ after the fact. The book of wisdom is a prime example of that. Far too messianic. The other reason Protestants went with the Jewish canon was that the canon of the Septuagent was far too Catholic, but that is a different matter from this thread. The canon kept by all of the different sorts of Orthodox, from Oriental to Greek to Assyrian to whatever, all include this book.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Jewish authorities, after the time of Christ, decided that even though it was in the Septuagent, it should not be included in their canon. Too much Jesus.

Great clarification thanks.
Obviously evidence enough to convict.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes - you have presented the matter quite well thanks.

I see no harm in recognising some outstanding aspects of these writings like the one in this OP.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Yes - you have presented the matter quite well thanks.

I see no harm in recognising some outstanding aspects of these writings like the one in this OP.

The book of Sirach is also to be recommended. Not messianic but much like Proverbs.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I suspect the rationale for exclusion was to do with consistently being in harmony with the rest of recognized writings.

J B Philips wrote about this in his book "A ring of truth"

However I do believe in mining the diamonds among the rough.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I suspect the rationale for exclusion was to do with consistently being in harmony with the rest of recognized writings.

That’s a theory I have seen. But there are problems with ‘consistency’ in evaluating non-systematic texts. It ends up being a question of evaluating the apparent harmony of a book with a derived theology rather than any harmony among various books. For example, the Books of the Macchabees are considered by some to not be in harmony with the rest of Scripture. But the issue is that it is not in harmony with a derived theology that says prayers for the dead are wrong. Theology should not determine canon. Canon should determine theology. Of course that opens a can of worms about how the canon was first formed.

 

[Carl Emerson]

At the end of the day it is about the Truth that the Spirit gives witness to - rather than being told what to believe by a fragmented church.

But hey... lets rejoice with the outstanding prophesy concerning our Lord that we are discussing.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So why was the Wisdom of Solomon not included in the Cannon?

Was this the diamond in the rough ??

It's found in Catholic and Orthodox Bibles, it's exclusion from modern Protestant Bibles goes back to the exclusion of all the Deuterocanonicals from the Old Testament in Luther's German translation. Luther was of the opinion (and it wasn't an extreme opinion, as there had been debates over certain books since the earliest days of the Church) that the Deuterocanonical books were not Scripture strictly speaking, but nevertheless important and ought to be read in the churches and by Christians for our benefit, edification, and because some of those Deuterocanonical books provide incredibly important details. For example, 1 Maccabees provides incredibly important historical information about the period between the rebuilding of the Temple and the Roman occupation of Judea, the book of Daniel also benefits by having an understanding of the Maccabean period, as details from Daniel are historically grounded in those events described in 1 Maccabees.

Luther didn't remove these books from the Bible, but he did take them out of the Old Testament. Instead Luther created an appendix (appendices in Bibles weren't uncommon) for the Deuterocanonical books under the title of "The Apocrypha". The word "apocrypha" means "hidden" and was originally in antiquity applied to books of a highly suspicious nature, usually outright heretical works. But in the context of ongoing debates about the Canon, the term "apocrypha" came to be applied to any number of non-canonical works; and thus debates over whether a book was Canonical or Apocryphal were real discussions and debates in Christian history. So by labeling these books "Apocrypha" Luther was not labeling them bad, or saying they were on the same level as condemned works; rather only that they were to be held distinct from the rest of the Bible.

In addition, Luther also expressed desire to remove or do the same with some of the New Testament Antilegomena (the historically debated and disputed books of the New Testament), most notably James and Revelation. Luther was persuaded against doing this, and instead shuffled almost all of the Antilegomena to the end of his German New Testament.

Protestant Bible translators in other languages followed Luther in making a distinction between the Deuterocanonicals and the rest of the Old Testament, and some Protestant traditions such as the Reformed tradition, put forward confessional statements expressly accepting only 39 Old Testament books, with the Deuterocanonicals regarded as Apocrypha. As a result English language Protestant Bibles have been divided between a 39 book OT and a 27 book NT, with the Apocrypha published in appendix. This is how the KJV was published from 1611 until the late 19th century, American publishers phased out the Apocrypha in American versions of the KJV and in updated translations. I'm less familiar with the KJV in the UK, especially since the KJV is still a copyrighted work there, the copyright is owned by the British Crown in perpetuity.

The short answer is modern Protestant Bibles lack the Deuterocanonicals because Luther considered them sub-canonical, and because Bible publishers in the late 1800's stopped publishing Bibles with the Apocrypha; probably in part to save printing costs, and in part because Anti-Catholic sentiment was extremely high in the 19th century, and these books were increasingly viewed by some Protestant leaders as "Popish".

As I often do in these conversations, I like to point out that even though Luther is the one who did this initially, Lutheranism doesn't have an official position on the subject. Luther's opinion is neither affirmed nor rejected in any of the Lutheran confessional texts which are still used by all Lutheran churches around the world. Meaning the question of whether the Deuterocanonicals are Scripture or not is, from a Lutheran perspective, a totally open and valid question; the Canon is not, strictly speaking, closed.

As for my opinion on these books: I neither accept all the Deuterocanonicals as Scripture, nor do I reject any of them as non-Scripture. I have books of the Deuterocanonicals that I have engaged with and really like, especially the Wisdom of Ben Sirach. And there are books in the Deuterocanonicals that I think are a little weird--but "weird" doesn't mean non-Scripture, the Bible is full of weird things.

A part of me feels like if we can hang onto the Epistle of James and the Revelation of St. John in the Canon, then we can probably keep the Deuterocanonicals around. But my opinion and five bucks can get you a cup of coffee.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[GreekOrthodox]

To add to what ViaCrusis has said, is that most Sola Scriptura Protestants misunderstand what "Canon" means to the original church. These were lists of books to be read publicly during the services. These lists did vary somewhat and were not uniform. Also remember that back then, the literacy rate might have been 10-15% so it wasn't like anyone was printing Bibles in "genuine imitation leather with Christ's words in red". As a result, minor clergy like me, a tonsured Reader, were the ones that had to make sure that we read from these books that were noted as permitted.

For example, Canon 59 of the Council of Laodicea reads:
No psalms composed by private individuals nor any uncanonical books may be read in the church, but only the Canonical Books of the Old and New Testaments.

Then Canon 60 lists the books to be read:
These are all the books of Old Testament appointed to be read: 1, Genesis of the world; 2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.

And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon. Note: notice that Revelation is NOT included as a book to be read! This is one reason why the Eastern Church regards Revelation as its own unique book.

Athanasius wrote his own list in his 39th Festal Letter which does include Revelation, but does not include the two books of Esdras.
Athanasius on the Canon of Scripture

Here is a complete list of the various books that people or councils viewed as worthy of being read in public.
Ancient Canon Lists

 

[Carl Emerson]

To add to what ViaCrusis has said, is that most Sola Scriptura Protestants misunderstand what "Canon" means to the original church. These were lists of books to be read publicly during the services. These lists did vary somewhat and were not uniform. Also remember that back then, the literacy rate might have been 10-15% so it wasn't like anyone was printing Bibles in "genuine imitation leather with Christ's words in red". As a result, minor clergy like me, a tonsured Reader, were the ones that had to make sure that we read from these books that were noted as permitted.

For example, Canon 59 of the Council of Laodicea reads:
No psalms composed by private individuals nor any uncanonical books may be read in the church, but only the Canonical Books of the Old and New Testaments.

Then Canon 60 lists the books to be read:
These are all the books of Old Testament appointed to be read: 1, Genesis of the world; 2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.

And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon. Note: notice that Revelation is NOT included as a book to be read! This is one reason why the Eastern Church regards Revelation as its own unique book.

Athanasius wrote his own list in his 39th Festal Letter which does include Revelation, but does not include the two books of Esdras.
Athanasius on the Canon of Scripture

Here is a complete list of the various books that people or councils viewed as worthy of being read in public.
Ancient Canon Lists

Nice information thanks.