It's Sad That So Many Christians Consider Themselves "New Testament" Christians

[expos4ever]

I think Jesus showed us the example of the law written on the heart when He said murder begins in the heart. It starts with our thoughts and feelings, so if we replace thoughts of anger and hate with love and compassion, the thought of murder won't enter our minds, so we will be keeping the commandment to "thou shalt not murder.

Yes, but we won't need to refer to the Law at all. I am not saying that the Spirit will not sometimes prompt us to act in a way that aligns with the Law. But the point remains: the Spirit replaces the Law as the source that guides actions.

Besides, the Law was only for Jews - Gentiles were never under it

If one is keeping the Spirit of the law, the letter is automatically kept and it applies to all Ten of the commandments.

Where is the Biblical support for this statement?

In any event, does the Spirit tell us to stone adulterers? That is part of the Law of Moses.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, but we won't need to refer to the Law at all. I am not saying that the Spirit will not sometimes prompt us to act in a way that aligns with the Law. .

Not according to scripture: Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

There is no such thing as the Spirit will lead you to a little sin or lead you to break some laws. That is why the apostles said to test ourselves to ensure we are in the faith. Too easy to follow the "other spirit" who deceives the whole world. I am so grateful that God's Word shows us exactly what to do so we will not be deceived and Isaiah 8:20 really sums it up.

If you are in the Spirit you are obeying the law according to scripture, not sinning and breaking the commandments. Acts 5:32, Acts 2:38, John 14:15-18

Besides, the Law was only for Jews - Gentiles were never under it

Well many erroneously think this, but according to scripture, if we are in Christ, we are grafted into God's Israel. There is no Jew or Gentile if in Christ and we are part of Abrahams seed. Galatians 3:28-29. One doesn't only receive the promises and can ignore the laws, it comes with both.

Where is the Biblical support for this statement?

All throughout scripture which I have already provided in my posts.

. In any event, does the Spirit tell us to stone adulterers? That is part of the Law of Moses.

That is the condemnation of the law -the wages of sin is death. It is still a sin to commit adultery or any of the commandments in the New Covenant Hebrews 8:10, Jeremiah 31:33, James 2:10-12, Matthew 5:17-30, Matthew 19:17, 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7, Romans 3:20 but in the New Covenant Jesus is our High priest administering on our behalf and we can go directly to Him for the forgiveness of sin, when we repent and turn from sin and walk in Christ with His Spirit that will never lead you to break any of the commandments. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32, Acts 2:38

God bless

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

When you read the rest of that chapter and the next, there isn’t one word that would lend support to the teaching that the dream was all about food, and telling Peter that it was now OK for Christians to eat unclean meats.

Good point. But why use food as an example in the vision if it is not to be understood as well?

and what about “the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Romans 14:17).

and

Romans 13
Fulfilling the Law Through Love
8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And really it is analogous to circumcision.
Galatians Chapter 5:2 Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

"This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. ' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matt 40:37–40)

 

[expos4ever]

Not according to scripture: Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

I do not think you are accounting for the larger scriptural context.

Obviously, during the time that the Law was in force, writers of scripture, like Isaiah, will make statements like this about how we should follow the Law. But, as Paul writes, we are no longer under the Law:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

How could Paul not be more clear - we are no longer under the law. Are you going to argue that Paul is saying we are no longer subject to the Law's condemnation but are otherwise still obligated to follow it?

That does great violence to Pauls' actual wording - Paul says we have been released from the law and no longer serve according to it.

There is nary a whisper of this distinction you guys often introduce to the effect that we still have to follow the law, but are released from the condemnation it brings.

Scripture tells us of the evolving narrative of God's redemptive activity. Failing to see this leads to errors like assuming that laws that were in force in one time and place remain eternally in place.

And if you are going to post texts that speak of the eternal nature of the Torah, I politely suggest you look at the original Hebrew for words like "eternal" and "everlasting".

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I do not think you are accounting for the larger scriptural context.

Obviously, during the time that the Law was in force, writers of scripture, like Isaiah, will make statements like this about how we should follow the Law. But, as Paul writes, we are no longer under the Law:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

How could Paul not be more clear - we are no longer under the law. Are you going to argue that Paul is saying we are no longer subject to the Law's condemnation but are otherwise still obligated to follow it?

That does great violence to Pauls' actual wording - Paul says we have been released from the law and no longer serve according to it.

There is nary a whisper of this distinction you guys often introduce to the effect that we still have to follow the law, but are released from the condemnation it brings.

Scripture tells us of the evolving narrative of God's redemptive activity. Failing to see this leads to errors like assuming that laws that were in force in one time and place remain eternally in place.

And if you are going to post texts that speak of the eternal nature of the Torah, I politely suggest you look at the original Hebrew for words like "eternal" and "everlasting".

We are released from the law if one is obeying the laws, not breaking them. If you are in the Spirit you are OBEYING according to scriptures. Acts 5:32, Acts 2:38, John 14:15-18

You keep isolating this one scripture and not looking at it in context. Paul is not saying we can freely sin and break God’s laws. Romans 6, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7, I Cor 7:19 Paul is not contradicting himself or God, or James or John, many twist Paul’s scriptures to their own destruction.

Jesus has some warnings about this before the second coming Matthew 19:17, Matthew 7:21-23 and John does as well Revelation 22:14-15.

There is no scripture that says we can freely commit murder, lie, cheat, steal, worship other god’s or break any of the commandments. We will have to agree to disagree. God bless and take care.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I will try to support what I posted earlier.

First, as to Dietary Laws ~
@Akita Suggagaki asked in an earlier post about Acts 10. Many today are taught that the vision Peter was given 3 times, is teaching that Christians no longer need to abide by the dietary laws given in Leviticus 11, that they can eat whatever they want today. I believe that couldn't be any further from the truth.

If we look closely at that Acts 10 along with Acts 11, what this is clearly all about is teaching Peter that he needed to give up RACISM. The Jews were taught from the day they were born that Jews were far better than other races. Jesus worked hard for 3 years, before His death, to teach them that He loved those in other races just as much as He loved the Jews...but pre-conceived ideas are hard to give up. And even though Peter was a Christian, he hadn't yet come to love those not of the Jewish race as he needed to, in order to be a real worker for God and to be able to take the Gospel to "all Nations."

So, God sent Peter a vision where he compared UNCLEAN FOODS to NON-JEWS. God was about to send 3 messengers to Peter (that is why the vision was given 3 times), with a message asking him to come and preach the Gospel to them. Before this vision, Peter wouldn't have considered such a thing, as he looked at those from other nations as "unclean."

Peter INTERPRETS the dream for Cornelius ~

"And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." Acts 10:28


As you can see here, the interpretation of the dream has NOTHING to do with food, and everything to do with RACISM. Peter was a RACIST. Had it not been for God sending him this dream, he would have refused to go with the 3 men to tell Cornelius and his house the Gospel.


When you read the rest of that chapter and the next, there isn’t one word that would lend support to the teaching that the dream was all about food, and telling Peter that it was now OK for Christians to eat unclean meats.

Thank you, sister, for taking the time to write out some references to Scripture which influence your thinking on the issue you've brought up in this thread. It does seem that you're right about Peter being taught by the Lord to regard Gentiles for salvation along with his fellow Jewish brethren. Most likely, the dream Peter had wasn't simply about the eating of unclean versus clean foods, but in the recognition that God intends to gather in Gentiles along with people of Israel, without bias and without prejudice. And you make a good point in mentioning that Acts 10:28 emphasizes this central motif of discernment.

However, I'm still wondering something here. If we're going to utilize the book of Acts for the sake of establishing our doctrine, shouldn't we include all aspects of this book? I seem to remember that something related to this same issue regarding the connection between Gentiles and the possible eating of 'unclean food' coming up for consideration in chapter 15 of Acts, specifically in the narrative Luke provides about the deliberations over this matter among early church leaders like Paul and James in the Council of Jerusalem (i.e. Acts 15:1-29).

Wouldn't this 15th chapter also have some bearing upon the extent to which we should expect Christians, even those of us who, like me, are Gentile, to evaluate the foods we might eat as Christians? I'm just wondering how you may interpret what we find here as well.

Again, thank you for your time in discussing this. I appreciate it.

 

[expos4ever]

We are released from the law if one is obeying the laws, not breaking them.

Where does scripture say this? Certainly not in the texts you cited.

It would be very odd indeed to tell someone they are released from a law but still need to obey it.

If you are in the Spirit you are OBEYING according to scriptures. Acts 5:32, Acts 2:38, John 14:15-18

None of these texts even mention the Law of Moses. You have to assume that the Law of Moses is being included in the scope of the general commandments to obey that we see in these texts.

If you are going to argue that it is "self-evident" that these commands include the Law of Moses, how is it not equally evident that we are being asked to obey all other commands in the Old Testament, including the orders from God to Solomon to build a temple - should we be all building temples?

You cannot simply assume that the Law of Moses (which includes the 10) applies to all humanity (it never did in the OT), or that the Law of Moses is eternal. You need to make a case.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Where does scripture say this? Certainly not in the texts you cited.

It would be very odd indeed to tell someone they are released from a law but still need to obey it.

I don't believe the bible is one big contradiction. Please show me one verse that says if you are in the Spirit you are sinning or free to sin?

None of these texts even mention the Law of Moses. You have to assume that the Law of Moses is being included in the scope of the general commandments to obey that we see in these texts.

If you are going to argue that it is "self-evident" that these commands include the Law of Moses, how is it not equally evident that we are being asked to obey all other commands in the Old Testament, including the orders from God to Solomon to build a temple - should we be all building temples?

You cannot simply assume that the Law of Moses (which includes the 10) applies to all humanity (it never did in the OT), or that the Law of Moses is eternal. You need to make a case.

I am not quoting the law of Moses I am quoting the law of God, written with God's own finger and quoted verbatim throughout the New Testament. The law of God was written by God alone and kept inside the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple which is also revealed in heaven. Revelation 11:19. There are differences between the law of God and the law of Moses, they serve different purposes and will be happy to provide scripture that points this out when I have more time.

Jesus said "If you love Me, keep My commandments" John 14:15 which was repeated verbatim what God said right in the Ten Commandments. Exodus 20:6. If you think you can freely break these laws without condemnation, despite clear scripture stating otherwise James 2:10-12, Matthew 7:21-23, Revelation 11:19, Matthew 5:21, Matthew 5:19, Hebrews 10:26-30, Revelation 22:14-15, 1 John 2:3-5 its not a risk worth taking for me because keeping the commandments are not burdensome and I love God. 1 John 5:3. God bless

 

[expos4ever]

I don't believe the bible is one big contradiction. Please show me one verse that says if you are in the Spirit you are sinning or free to sin?

Strawman - I never suggested we are free to sin, I am saying the Law of Moses no longer applies. As a Canadian, I am not under the law of the USA, but that does not mean I am free to commit murder. Even if murder were legal in Canada (I assure you it is not) it would still be sin for me to commit murder

I am not quoting the law of Moses I am quoting the law of God, written with God's own finger and quoted verbatim throughout the New Testament.

Terminology - the Law of Moses is the 613 commandments given to Israel - these include the 10 commandment but also many more.

We are no longer under these laws - Paul is quite clear about this. And Jesus is too, although the argument is a little more subtle.

 

[expos4ever]

The law of God was written by God alone and kept inside the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple which is also revealed in heaven. Revelation 11:19. There are differences between the law of God and the law of Moses, they serve different purposes and will be happy to provide scripture that points this out when I have more time.

I am not exactly sure what you mean by "the law of God", but we might end up agreeing that we are to obey it. But the Law of Moses - which includes the 10 commandments - has been retired. As I have explained, this certainly does not put me in a position where I am forced to say it is OK to murder.

Does a person with the indwelling Spirit need a law to tell them to not murder?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I am not exactly sure what you mean by "the law of God", but we might end up agreeing that we are to obey it. But the Law of Moses - which includes the 10 commandments - has been retired. As I have explained, this certainly does not put me in a position where I am forced to say it is OK to murder.

Does a person with the indwelling Spirit need a law to tell them to not murder?

The law of God includes "thou shalt not murder". Exodus 20. It's not up to us to pick and choose the laws we want to keep, God tells us right in the Ten Commandments if you love Me keep My commandments, which Jesus repeated John 14:15. God wrote a covenant of Ten Exodus 34:28 with His own finger and James quoting from the Ten Commandments tells us if we break one of these commandments, we break them all and what we will be judged by. James 2:10-12. Jesus tells us we should keep the least of the commandments and quotes directly from the Ten. Matthew 5:17-30, Matthew 19:17 so your argument appears to be with the scriptures.

I have already posted the scriptures multiple times, so I won't repeat myself. They have been shared and hopefully you will read prayerfully but there is no need for us to keep repeating ourselves so we will have to agree to disagree. God bless.

 

[expos4ever]

Jesus said "If you love Me, keep My commandments"

Nothing I have posted suggests that we should not obey Jesus.

It is critical that people understand that to assert we are not under the Law of Moses most certainly does not mean we are free to commit murder, etc. This is easy to understand - we have the indwelling Spirit, do you really need a law?

 

[expos4ever]

The law of God includes "thou shalt not murder". Exodus 20.

I obviously agree that Exodus tells the Jew, not Gentiles, to not murder.

But where, Biblically is there a claim that clearly states that any of the 10 commandments are part of the "law of God"?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Nothing I have posted suggests that we should not obey Jesus.

It is critical that people understand that to assert we are not under the Law of Moses most certainly does not mean we are free to commit murder, etc. This is easy to understand - we have the indwelling Spirit, do you really need a law?

There is law still, for example our Lord said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", that's law, that's a commandment.

Murder isn't wrong because it says so in the 10 Commandments, it's wrong because it's wrong, and the Great Commandment that we love our neighbor as our self is the standard. So, very simply: You can't love your neighbor if you are murdering them.

The reason why some people love lists of rules is because the natural man, the carnal man, in his flesh can be self-righteous in lists. We just have to take a look over to Mark 10 with the rich young ruler who confidently says, "These I have obeyed since I was young", yet Jesus calls, "Sell all you own and come follow Me" to which the rich young ruler left sad "because he had much wealth".

It's easy to follow lists. If righteousness were merely observing the 10 Commandments to the letter, then righteousness for ourselves would be easy. I've never worshiped idols or other gods besides God, I don't murder, I don't steal, I don't bear false witness, I honor my parents, I am happy when my neighbor does well and prospers rather than envious and covetous of what they have. Etc.

But none of that makes me righteous or good. I am, in fact, a miserable sinner that sins and who rightly deserves both death and hell; but God who is rich in mercy saves me by His grace on Christ's account; and I am freely justified before God, my sins are forgiven, and I have peace with God--not on account of anything I've done, but all on account of what Christ has done for me. I therefore I have nothing of which to boast.

Indeed, Jesus shows us pretty clearly that even just the Ten Commandments are more severe than merely their letter: Not only are we not to murder, we should not even harbor anger against another; not only are we not to steal, we should be free and generous givers even to those who are hostile toward us; not only are we not to commit adultery, we shouldn't even objectify other people in our own minds and hearts by our lust. Through this I learn that even if I should carry out the letter of the commandments, I would fail on all points on account of my sin; and in this way the Law condemns me and shows my sin to be sin, as the Apostle says in Romans 7 that the Law came and increased sin.

So the irony of ironies is that all who seek to be righteous by the Law shall be condemned by the Law; and none shall be found righteous by it. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[expos4ever]

There is law still, for example our Lord said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", that's law, that's a commandment.

Murder isn't wrong because it says so in the 10 Commandments, it's wrong because it's wrong, and the Great Commandment that we love our neighbor as our self is the standard. So, very simply: You can't love your neighbor if you are murdering them.

Agree - this is why we can believe the Law of Moses is "retired" and not be accused of saying murder, etc. is ok.

 

[pescador]

I have said this before but perhaps not in this thread...

The law (any law) is external, i.e., not a part of us. The Spirit is internal and will guide us into all truth. John 16:13, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but will speak whatever he hears, and will tell you what is to come." Of course, the Holy Spirit has been given to believers since the Day of Pentecost.

 

[1watchman]

The law of God includes "thou shalt not murder". Exodus 20. It's not up to us to pick and choose the laws we want to keep, God tells us right in the Ten Commandments if you love Me keep My commandments, which Jesus repeated John 14:15. God wrote a covenant of Ten Exodus 34:28 with His own finger and James quoting from the Ten Commandments tells us if we break one of these commandments, we break them all and what we will be judged by. James 2:10-12. Jesus tells us we should keep the least of the commandments and quotes directly from the Ten. Matthew 5:17-30, Matthew 19:17 so your argument appears to be with the scriptures.

I have already posted the scriptures multiple times, so I won't repeat myself. They have been shared and hopefully you will read prayerfully but there is no need for us to keep repeating ourselves so we will have to agree to disagree. God bless.

You keep repeating John 14:15, dear Sabbath Blessings, as though the Lord Jesus was speaking of the OT religion, but He was speaking of His PRESENT commandments. You do not seem to understand the Gospels and Church Epistles; and hold to the OT as our faith yet today. Christians value the OT, but should know if was mostly about creation, the religion of Israel; and told of the Messiah coming (by faithful Prophets as Isaiah) which the rebellious Israelites in power rejected, and had their Messiah killed.
I can see this post need not continue, for as it has been said of old: 'a mind persuaded against its will, is of its same opinions still'. So, we can allow here that various religious people coming here claiming Christianity, and scrambling Holy Scripture will continue thus. 'Go in peace'!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I obviously agree that Exodus tells the Jew, not Gentiles, to not murder.

But where, Biblically is there a claim that clearly states that any of the 10 commandments are part of the "law of God"?

28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

The "He" who wrote the Ten Commandments is God, so this is the law of God.

For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments. 1 John 5:3 and God says He shows mercy to those who love Me and keep My commandments right in the Ten. Exodus 20:6 and blessed are those who DO His commandments, but outside are the commandment breakers. Revelation 22:14-15.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Nothing I have posted suggests that we should not obey Jesus.

It is critical that people understand that to assert we are not under the Law of Moses most certainly does not mean we are free to commit murder, etc. This is easy to understand - we have the indwelling Spirit, do you really need a law?

Jesus came do to do the will of God, Jesus and God are not at odds with the law, that why Jesus repeats verbatim from the Ten Commandments. Matthew 5:17-30, Matthew 19:17-19 and tells us to follow the example of Jesus who kept all of the commandments of God and tells us we should too. John 15:10.

we have the indwelling Spirit, do you really need a law?

According to Paul yes, the law is what points out sin.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

If it wasn't for the law we would not know what sin is. Sin is breaking the law of God 1 John 3:4 as Paul points out quoting from the Ten Commandments. God defines what sin is, it's not really up to us to obey God on our terms, but we are to obey God on His terms, His will, not our own.

The Spirit is only given to those who obey according to scriptures. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32, Acts 2:38.

1 John 3:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. Jesus kept the commandments as our example to follow. John 15:10 If you love Me, keep My commandments, repeated directly from the Ten verbatim. Exodus 20:6

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I can see this post need not continue, for as it has been said of old: 'a mind persuaded against its will, is of its same opinions still'. So, we can allow here that various religious people coming here claiming Christianity, and scrambling Holy Scripture will continue thus. 'Go in peace'!

Yes, sadly I see a lot of that on here.