Single predestination?

DeFyYing

Active Member
Sep 8, 2020
49
13
24
NJ
✟8,482.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
So I've been trying to make sense of the doctrine of predestination as someone currently attending a Lutheran church. I've been reading through the Book of Concord and find myself in agreement with everything I've read thus far, but when I look at some of the criticisms of the paradox of single predestination I falter a little bit. It seems that one is expected to either be Arminian or Calvinist, and the Lutheran option is a "non-answer" that is illogical. But I see that not only Lutherans but many Anglican divines as well as the Catholic Thomists believe in it, so I guess I just wanted to ask about defenses or critiques about this doctrine and how your tradition views it
 
  • Like
Reactions: zippy2006

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,458
8,966
Florida
✟321,755.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
So I've been trying to make sense of the doctrine of predestination as someone currently attending a Lutheran church. I've been reading through the Book of Concord and find myself in agreement with everything I've read thus far, but when I look at some of the criticisms of the paradox of single predestination I falter a little bit. It seems that one is expected to either be Arminian or Calvinist, and the Lutheran option is a "non-answer" that is illogical. But I see that not only Lutherans but many Anglican divines as well as the Catholic Thomists believe in it, so I guess I just wanted to ask about defenses or critiques about this doctrine and how your tradition views it

It's something that I personally disregard. According to the bible, predestination -at least as far as Calvinists describe it- is impossible. Also "Open Theism" as some people describe it is also impossible. In sorting through it, the only conclusion that can be reliably drawn from it is that God has a plan for humanity, that plan includes a group who will be saved, and that plan will be completed. Everything else is speculation. We know what we are required to do and we should do it. And we should do it without a lot of theological speculation that only divides.

But if it helps, one Orthodox view of predestination is found in the Confession of Dositheus, written by a Synod in Jerusalem in 1672:

We believe the most good God to have from eternity predestinated unto glory those whom He has chosen, and to have consigned unto condemnation those whom He has rejected; but not so that He would justify the one, and consign and condemn the other without cause. For that would be contrary to the nature of God, who is the common Father of all, and no respecter of persons, and would have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. But since He foreknew the one would make a right use of their free-will, and the other a wrong, He predestinated the one, or condemned the other. And we understand the use of free-will thus, that the Divine and illuminating grace, and which we call preventing grace, being, as a light to those in darkness, by the Divine goodness imparted to all, to those that are willing to obey this — for it is of use only to the willing, not to the unwilling — and co-operate with it, in what it requires as necessary to salvation, there is consequently granted particular grace. This grace co-operates with us, and enables us, and makes us to persevere in the love of God, that is to say, in performing those good things that God would have us to do, and which His preventing grace admonishes us that we should do, justifies us, and makes us predestinated. But those who will not obey, and co-operate with grace; and, therefore, will not observe those things that God would have us perform, and that abuse in the service of Satan the free-will, which they have received of God to perform voluntarily what is good, are consigned to eternal condemnation.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,159
16,006
Flyoverland
✟1,223,623.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
So I've been trying to make sense of the doctrine of predestination as someone currently attending a Lutheran church. I've been reading through the Book of Concord and find myself in agreement with everything I've read thus far, but when I look at some of the criticisms of the paradox of single predestination I falter a little bit. It seems that one is expected to either be Arminian or Calvinist, and the Lutheran option is a "non-answer" that is illogical. But I see that not only Lutherans but many Anglican divines as well as the Catholic Thomists believe in it, so I guess I just wanted to ask about defenses or critiques about this doctrine and how your tradition views it
I just don’t play the Calvinist/Arminian game. I suspect both sides in that are wrong actually. The whole fight is not relevant. Yes there is something to predestination but it’s not worth getting all bothered about. Aquinas and Augustine before him more or less had it figured out if you care to look at them. Just don’t pretend that Calvin simply followed Augustine.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,507
Georgia
✟899,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
So I've been trying to make sense of the doctrine of predestination as someone currently attending a Lutheran church. I've been reading through the Book of Concord and find myself in agreement with everything I've read thus far, but when I look at some of the criticisms of the paradox of single predestination I falter a little bit. It seems that one is expected to either be Arminian or Calvinist, and the Lutheran option is a "non-answer" that is illogical. But I see that not only Lutherans but many Anglican divines as well as the Catholic Thomists believe in it, so I guess I just wanted to ask about defenses or critiques about this doctrine and how your tradition views it

1. God knows everything -- omniscient
2. God predestines those whom he foreknows - to be conformed to the image of Christ
3. And God foreknows everyone.
4. And He also knows that only the few of Matt 7 - will be saved.

1 John 2: "2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." NIV
 
  • Like
Reactions: Deano715
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,159
16,006
Flyoverland
✟1,223,623.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Then show a 3rd option is presented in the Bible
I don’t see the first option or the second option is presented in the Bible.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
10,920
5,590
49
The Wild West
✟461,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I don’t see the first option or the second option is presented in the Bible.

Well, Arminianism properly understood corresponds with the Patristic, Scholastic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian and Roman Catholic perspective, since the early Church rejected Monergism; indeed the Chalcedonians declared it a heresy at the Fifth Ecumenical Council; the Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian rejection of it is equivalent to their rejection of iconoclasm, in that they did not require an ecumenical council to deal with it, indeed, the Oriental Orthodox never had a major problem with iconoclasm; there was a minor outbreak in Eastern Armenia which the bishops swiftly surpressed.

I reject TULIP, Five Points Calvinism on absolute grounds as contrary to divine love; I was at one time a Calvinist with Arminian sympathies only in that I did not understand that the Patristic and corresponding Arminian models admit that there is an Elect insofar as God does know who will and will not accept salvation, but it does not postulate, as per TULIP, that God intentionally foreordains people to salvation in order to demonstrate his perfect justice. Of late I have been studying what Calvin actually believed, and also the beliefs of Reformed churches, and they are not as bad as one might assume based on fundamentalist Calvinism. I cannot disprove Calvinist soteriology from Scripture, but I can disprove other aspects of Calvin’s own belief using a primarily Scriptural argument, for example his iconoclasm, but I can disprove Reformed theology using Holy Tradition.

At present however I am not greatly concerned with the traditional liturgical Reformed churches, as well as the conservative Reformed churches such as those parishes of the SBC which are Calvinist, except for those which engage in abusive church discipline, like those SBC, PCA, OPC and non-denom churches who are members of the 9Marks crypto-denomination, which I feel the SBC, PCA and OPC ought to ban their parishes from affiliating with, or teach misogynistic crypto-Arian doctrines like Eternal Subordination. In general however I find that conservative Reformed Christians tend to be allies of the traditional liturgical churches in issues of moral theology. For example, among the staunchest opponents of abortion and gay marriage alongside the Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Continuing Anglican, and Confessional Lutherans like the LCMS are the partially reformed SBC, and the fully reformed PCA and OPC, along with other Reformed churches including the traditional group that broke away from the Reformed Church in America (the historically Dutch Reformed Church), and the CCCC, whose parishes include Park Street Church in Boston, the last traditional, conservative Congregational church in the city (all the rest having either been swallowed up along with Harvard in the Unitarian schism of the late 18th century, or having become insufferably liberal as a result of the tragic decline of the United Church of Christ and the relative lack of success of confessional movements like Faithful and Welcoming to restore doctrinal normalcy; the former includes several of the oldest and most beautiful churches in Boston, and the latter likewise includes some truly gorgeous and historically important churches, for example, Old South Church; the most famous church in Boston, however, Old North Church, remains under the control of traditionalist Episcopalians and did a beautiful Christmas Day liturgy, which I watched on YouTube.

But at any rate, what I appreciate about the Southern Baptist Convention, whether we are talking about Calvinist Baptists, led by Dr. Albert Mohler, and non-Calvinist Baptists, is that the SBC along with most of the Roman Catholic Church, with the exception of the liberal fringe who i feel should be excommunicated unless they repent of their pro-abortion politics, which includes major politicians and groups like Nuns on a Bus (and several of the fast shrinking non-traditional Convents) is that the faithful of these two churches are most likely to board a bus and engage in protests in defense of the Pro-Life position in opposition to Roe vs. Wade, and an ecumenical partnership between Catholics and Baptists will be critical in pressuring the Supreme Court to knock out Roe vs. Wade, especially if Biden is able to replace Stephen Breyer, who I feel has been bullied into resigning prematurely.
 
Upvote 0

DeFyYing

Active Member
Sep 8, 2020
49
13
24
NJ
✟8,482.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Well, Arminianism properly understood corresponds with the Patristic, Scholastic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian and Roman Catholic perspective, since the early Church rejected Monergism; indeed the Chalcedonians declared it a heresy at the Fifth Ecumenical Council; the Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian rejection of it is equivalent to their rejection of iconoclasm, in that they did not require an ecumenical council to deal with it, indeed, the Oriental Orthodox never had a major problem with iconoclasm; there was a minor outbreak in Eastern Armenia which the bishops swiftly surpressed.

I reject TULIP, Five Points Calvinism on absolute grounds as contrary to divine love; I was at one time a Calvinist with Arminian sympathies only in that I did not understand that the Patristic and corresponding Arminian models admit that there is an Elect insofar as God does know who will and will not accept salvation, but it does not postulate, as per TULIP, that God intentionally foreordains people to salvation in order to demonstrate his perfect justice. Of late I have been studying what Calvin actually believed, and also the beliefs of Reformed churches, and they are not as bad as one might assume based on fundamentalist Calvinism. I cannot disprove Calvinist soteriology from Scripture, but I can disprove other aspects of Calvin’s own belief using a primarily Scriptural argument, for example his iconoclasm, but I can disprove Reformed theology using Holy Tradition.

At present however I am not greatly concerned with the traditional liturgical Reformed churches, as well as the conservative Reformed churches such as those parishes of the SBC which are Calvinist, except for those which engage in abusive church discipline, like those SBC, PCA, OPC and non-denom churches who are members of the 9Marks crypto-denomination, which I feel the SBC, PCA and OPC ought to ban their parishes from affiliating with, or teach misogynistic crypto-Arian doctrines like Eternal Subordination. In general however I find that conservative Reformed Christians tend to be allies of the traditional liturgical churches in issues of moral theology. For example, among the staunchest opponents of abortion and gay marriage alongside the Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Continuing Anglican, and Confessional Lutherans like the LCMS are the partially reformed SBC, and the fully reformed PCA and OPC, along with other Reformed churches including the traditional group that broke away from the Reformed Church in America (the historically Dutch Reformed Church), and the CCCC, whose parishes include Park Street Church in Boston, the last traditional, conservative Congregational church in the city (all the rest having either been swallowed up along with Harvard in the Unitarian schism of the late 18th century, or having become insufferably liberal as a result of the tragic decline of the United Church of Christ and the relative lack of success of confessional movements like Faithful and Welcoming to restore doctrinal normalcy; the former includes several of the oldest and most beautiful churches in Boston, and the latter likewise includes some truly gorgeous and historically important churches, for example, Old South Church; the most famous church in Boston, however, Old North Church, remains under the control of traditionalist Episcopalians and did a beautiful Christmas Day liturgy, which I watched on YouTube.

But at any rate, what I appreciate about the Southern Baptist Convention, whether we are talking about Calvinist Baptists, led by Dr. Albert Mohler, and non-Calvinist Baptists, is that the SBC along with most of the Roman Catholic Church, with the exception of the liberal fringe who i feel should be excommunicated unless they repent of their pro-abortion politics, which includes major politicians and groups like Nuns on a Bus (and several of the fast shrinking non-traditional Convents) is that the faithful of these two churches are most likely to board a bus and engage in protests in defense of the Pro-Life position in opposition to Roe vs. Wade, and an ecumenical partnership between Catholics and Baptists will be critical in pressuring the Supreme Court to knock out Roe vs. Wade, especially if Biden is able to replace Stephen Breyer, who I feel has been bullied into resigning prematurely.

Augustine, perhaps one of the most beloved Church Fathers, promoted the idea of predestination to the West and laid the foundation for Aquinas’ Thomistic theology of single predestination that many Roman Catholics adhere to today. Many Catholics do hold to Molinism, however
 
Upvote 0

TedT

Member since Job 38:7
Jan 11, 2021
1,850
334
Vancouver Island
✟85,846.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
the Confession of Dositheus, written by a Synod in Jerusalem in 1672:

We believe the most good God to have from eternity predestinated unto glory those whom He has chosen, and to have consigned unto condemnation those whom He has rejected; but not so that He would justify the one, and consign and condemn the other without cause. For that would be contrary to the nature of God, who is the common Father of all, and no respecter of persons, and would have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
I like this. I attribute the cause of the condemnation of some to their having chosen by their free will the eternal sin, the sin that is unforgivable. Nothing else fits HIS divine attributes.

But since He foreknew the one would make a right use of their free-will, and the other a wrong, He predestinated the one, or condemned the other.
Saved by Grace, ie by GOD's will only and none of our own, denies this bit.

Sinners are enslaved by the addictive power of sin so without the power of HIS grace we cannot resist its pull.


But those who will not obey, and co-operate with grace;

Grace that can be thwarted is no grace at all but a mere offer of grace. My personal experience as a sinner saved was with grace fighting against me fighting against it to resit HIM until I died...to be reborn.
 
Upvote 0

TedT

Member since Job 38:7
Jan 11, 2021
1,850
334
Vancouver Island
✟85,846.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
single predestination
Illogical go believe there is any such thing.

If I am predestined to be saved and you are not then you are in fact also predestined but to hell. Sinfulness predestines us to hell. Only grace predestined us to salvation for those who did not reject HIM by sinning the unforgivable sin.

Predestination is not CAUSAL BUT INFORMATIVE OF THE FUTURE, ie a prophecy of the future based upon the free will decisions of the past, NOT of our actions as sinners since every sinner is equal in evil being totally depraved and unworthy of salvation.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

TedT

Member since Job 38:7
Jan 11, 2021
1,850
334
Vancouver Island
✟85,846.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I reject TULIP, Five Points Calvinism on absolute grounds as contrary to divine love;
...yet you do not accept that the Arminians are contrary to HIS love when they claim there are people in hell who could be saved if they would but repent but they will not?

GOD is love and love is patient...so hell could be empty if HE would only not limit HIS patience, that is, HIS love, and outwait out their rebellion. HIS love must fail for Arminian hell to be real...

If it is considered that HE quits waiting for their reptence because HIS knowledge includes the knowledge that they have sinned the unforgivable sin and can't be saved then that knowledge was acquired at the moment of the sin, not by looking into the future. It also implies that there is NO ONE IN HELL WHO CAN BE SAVED, since the only ones in hell are those who chose by their free will to sin the unforgivable sin!

Is that what what Arminius taught?
Everyone who can be saved will be saved?
No one in hell can be saved?
No one is in hell from worldly stubbornness but by actually having become evil incarnate, fully leavened into perfect evil by sinning the unforgivable sin.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,507
Georgia
✟899,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I don’t see the first option or the second option is presented in the Bible.

has to be one or the other - either your are predestined or you are not - no third option
 
  • Agree
Reactions: TedT
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,507
Georgia
✟899,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
...yet you do not accept that the Arminians are contrary to HIS love when they claim there are people in hell who could be saved if they would but repent but they will not?

I am Arminian - I do not claim that.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,507
Georgia
✟899,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
If it is considered that HE quits waiting for their reptence because HIS knowledge includes the knowledge that they have sinned the unforgivable sin and can't be saved then that knowledge was acquired at the moment of the sin, not by looking into the future.

That is not a logical argument -- a logical one would be
1. Either he does know the future or He does not
2. Given that He knows the future he knows when a person has gone so far they will not turn back.
-- and he knew when that would happen all along.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,159
16,006
Flyoverland
✟1,223,623.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
has to be one or the other - either your are predestined or you are not - no third option
I think the dilemma is falsely framed. In which case I do not have to pick one or the other.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,507
Georgia
✟899,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
BobRyan said:
has to be one or the other - either your are predestined or you are not - no third option

I think the dilemma is falsely framed. In which case I do not have to pick one or the other.

Fine - easy response for you in that case -- just show another option since you believe it exists.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TedT
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,159
16,006
Flyoverland
✟1,223,623.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Upvote 0

TedT

Member since Job 38:7
Jan 11, 2021
1,850
334
Vancouver Island
✟85,846.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That is not a logical argument -- a logical one would be
1. Either he does know the future or He does not
2. Given that He knows the future he knows when a person has gone so far they will not turn back.
-- and he knew when that would happen all along.

ImCo:
My concern about this argument stems from the verses in which GOD tells us that though HE does all for HIS pleasure, HE takes no pleasure in the death of anyone, Ezekiel 18:32 and 33:11, and also that HE wants everyone to repent and be saved, 2 Peter 3:9. IF HE truly wanted no one to die or to end in hell and yet HE knew from time immemorial that some would indeed end up in the eternal death of hell,

...then all He had to do to ensure that HIS pleasure in a no death creation would have been fulfilled was to not create those whom HE knew would end there.

If we can easily see and understand this method of obtaining HIS pleasure how much more would HE?? The fact that HE did create them and will banish them to the outer darkness against both HIS purpose in our creation and HIS desire no one dies, would tend to prove that the pagan Greek definition of HIS omniscience as knowing all that can be known from eternity past to eternity future needs to be re-thought and re-defined.

Have we lived in the dark about HIM for centuries because the early fathers chose pagan definitions over the light of the gospel? Time to fix it then, eh?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,507
Georgia
✟899,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
That of Thomas Aquinas, critically different from Calvin, as a way of reconciling the foreknowledge of God with the free will of man.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP – Jimmy A
That of Thomas Aquinas, critically different from Calvin, as a way of reconciling the foreknowledge of God with the free will of man.

[URL='https://jimmyakin.com/a-tiptoe-through-tulip']A Tiptoe Through TULIP – Jimmy Akin

kin[/URL]

from your link -

"Total depravity

"Despite its name, the doctrine of total depravity does not mean men are always and only sinful. Calvinists do not think we are as sinful as we possibly could be. They claim our free will has been injured by original sin to the point that, unless God gives us special grace, we cannot free ourselves from sin and choose to serve God in love. We might choose to serve him out of fear, but not out of unselfish love [9]."​

Most Arminians I have known would also agree with that. -- that part of the discussion is a point in common.

From your link

" The doctrine of unconditional election means God does not base his choice (election) of certain individuals on anything other than his own good will [13]. God chooses whomever he pleases and passes over the rest. The ones God chooses will desire to come to him, will accept his offer of salvation, and will do so precisely because he has chosen them.

"To show that God positively chooses, rather than merely foresees, those who will come to him, Calvinists cite passages such as Romans 9:15-18, which says, “[The Lord] says to Moses, ‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.’ So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy…. So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills [14].”​

I have heard Arminians refer to that as "arbitrary selection" - an alternate name for it - and they do not agree because of John 3:15, 1 John 2:2 and Rom 2:11


from your link

"Although a Catholic may agree with unconditional election, he may not affirm “double-predestination,” a doctrine Calvinists often infer from it. This teaching claims that in addition to electing some people to salvation God also sends others to damnation.

"The alternative to double-predestination is to say that while God predestines some people, he simply passes over the remainder. They will not come to God, but it is because of their inherent sin, not because God damns them. This is the doctrine of passive reprobation, which Aquinas taught [16].
as someone else here already noted - once it is admitted that single predestination leaves all who are not predestined - doomed to hell - then no such thing as "double predestination" because it is just a consequence of single predestination.

from our link

"Calvinists believe the atonement is limited, that Christ offered it for some men but not for all. They claim Christ died only for the elect. To prove this they cite verses which say Christ died for his sheep (John 10:11), for his friends (John 15:13-14a), and for the Church (Acts 20:28, Eph. 5:25) [18]. One cannot use these verses to prove Christ died only for the elect.​

Most Arminians would agree with your link on that point.

from your link

"Irresistible Grace

"Calvinists teach that when God gives a person the grace that enables him to come to salvation, the person always responds and never rejects this grace. For this reason many have called this the doctrine of irresistible grace.

"This designation has the drawback of making it sound as though God forces people against their will to come to him (like a policeman shouting, “Resistance is useless! Throw down your weapons and surrender!”) The designation also sounds unbiblical, since Scripture indicates grace can be resisted. In Acts 7:51 Stephen tells the Sanhedrin, “You always resist the Holy Spirit!” [27]
Most Arminians would agree with your link on that point.

from your link

"Perseverance of the saints

"Calvinists teach that if a person enters a state of grace he never will leave it but will persevere to the end of life. This doctrine is normally called the perseverance of the saints. [33] All those who are at any time saints (in a state of sanctifying grace, to use Catholic terminology) will remain so forever. No matter what trials they face, they will always persevere, so their salvation is eternally secure. [34]

Analogies are used to support this teaching. Calvinists point out that when we become Christians we become God’s children. They infer that, just as a child’s position in the family is secure, our position in God’s family is secure. A father would not kick his son out, so God will not kick us out.

This reasoning is faulty. The analogy does not prove what it is supposed to. Children do not have “eternal security” in their families. First, they can be disowned. Second, even if a father would not kick anyone out, a child can leave the house on his own, disown his parents, and sever all ties with the family. Third, children can die; we, as God’s children, can die spiritual deaths after we have been spiritually “born again.” [35]​

Most Arminians would agree with your link on that point.

from your link -

Calvinists also use Bible passages to teach perseverance of the saints. The chief ones are John 6:37-39, 10:27-29, and Romans 8:35-39. The Calvinist interpretation of these passages takes them out of context [36], and there are numerous other exegetical problems with their interpretation. [37]

...the fact that a person will come to God does not of itself mean he will stay with God. If one is talking about predestination to final salvation, then a predestined person will stay with God, but this does not mean the predestined are the only ones who experience initial salvation. Some might genuinely come to God (because they were predestined to initial salvation) and then genuinely leave (because they were not predestined to final salvation). [39] Either way, predestination to initial salvation does not entail predestination to final salvation. [40] There is no reason why a person cannot be predestined to “believe for a while” but “in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:13). [41]
Your link mixes predestination with perseverance - - But Arminians would agree with this much of that link - "Some might genuinely come to God ... and then genuinely leave"
 
Upvote 0