• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Synoptic Gospels

Minister Monardo

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,725
3,541
69
Arizona
✟204,233.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
A careful comparison of the four Gospels reveals that Matthew, Mark and Luke are noticeably similar, while John is quite different. The first three Gospels agree extensively in language, in the material they include, and in the order in which events and sayings from the life of Christ are recorded. (Chronological order does not appear to have been rigidly followed in any of the Gospels, however.) Because of this agreement, these three books are called the Synoptic Gospels (syn, “together with”; optic, “seeing”; thus “seeing together”).

What key points stand out to you in the Gospel of John
in comparison to the Synoptic Gospels?
How would you explain the impact that the Gospel
of John has had on you in your studies?

Romans 24:19 Let us pursue the things which make for peace
and the things by which one may edify another.
 

sandman

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2003
2,465
1,657
MI
✟136,537.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Constitution
A careful comparison of the four Gospels reveals that Matthew, Mark and Luke are noticeably similar, while John is quite different. The first three Gospels agree extensively in language, in the material they include, and in the order in which events and sayings from the life of Christ are recorded. (Chronological order does not appear to have been rigidly followed in any of the Gospels, however.) Because of this agreement, these three books are called the Synoptic Gospels (syn, “together with”; optic, “seeing”; thus “seeing together”).

What key points stand out to you in the Gospel of John
in comparison to the Synoptic Gospels?
How would you explain the impact that the Gospel
of John has had on you in your studies?

Romans 24:19 Let us pursue the things which make for peace
and the things by which one may edify another.


I believe the gospels were written from the the perspective of the different aspects of Jesus Christ ministry. Something the prophets of old foretold this in regard to the BRANCH in the OT, which fit with the 4 gospels as such …......... Matthew - as King, Mark - as Servant, Lukeas Man and John – as Son of God… And they should be read as such from that perspective

Probably I should shut up now ….but it’s not in my nature.

This is not directed at Minister Monardo….it is directed at those who want to play God…

Religion has seriously defrauded us through harmony of the gospels setting the table for our misunderstanding.
Going back to the second century when the first biblical synopsis was designed in effort to put a human spin on the God breathed Word….in other words …bringing the Word of God down the level of man ….making himself smarter than God. … that in essence is what the synopsis is.

Since the time of Tatian there have been (I think) 27 accepted biblical synopsis in the theological circle…and yet every one has a problem. As John Barton points out, “it is impossible to construct a single account from the four gospels without changing at least some parts of the individual accounts”.

Why is that?..... is it because God made mistakes? One would have to conclude that, if one holds to the premises of the God breathed Word…..Another dismissal of the inaccuracies is attributed to the recollection of the writers not remembering the accounts clearly ….after all it was several years later that the gospels were written…… Again, I bring you back to what you think of the Word of God. Is it given by inspiration of God (2Ti 3:16)… by moved by the Holy Spirit (2Pe 1:21) and/or by revelation from Jesus Christ (Gal 1:12) or did they write of their own volition…. I contend, many writers….. 1 Author.

In their attempt to weave together sections of scripture into a single narrative there are many things (accounts) mostly surrounding the crucifixion where the accuracy is distorted, and the narrative becomes accepted as biblical truths…this is what happens when man plays God.

Leave the Word alone and read it for what it is. Understand that God has a reason for why these are written the way they are….and approach it from that perspective.
 
Upvote 0

disciple Clint

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2018
15,259
5,997
Pacific Northwest
✟216,150.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
A careful comparison of the four Gospels reveals that Matthew, Mark and Luke are noticeably similar, while John is quite different. The first three Gospels agree extensively in language, in the material they include, and in the order in which events and sayings from the life of Christ are recorded. (Chronological order does not appear to have been rigidly followed in any of the Gospels, however.) Because of this agreement, these three books are called the Synoptic Gospels (syn, “together with”; optic, “seeing”; thus “seeing together”).

What key points stand out to you in the Gospel of John
in comparison to the Synoptic Gospels?
How would you explain the impact that the Gospel
of John has had on you in your studies?

Romans 24:19 Let us pursue the things which make for peace
and the things by which one may edify another.
John is my favorite Gospel because it is so much deeper than it looks to be on the surface, John was very close to Jesus and it shows. The prologue to John tells you everything you need to know to be saved but John goes on to show you who Jesus is and why. Also since John was written after some of the heresies became obvious he counters many of the misunderstanding that cause confusion on the Christology of Jesus. When people ask me what books to read first in the Bible I recommend John and Romans. John tells you everything you need to know about Jesus and Romans provides you with a systematic theology.
 
Upvote 0

dqhall

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2015
7,547
4,172
Florida
Visit site
✟811,723.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
A careful comparison of the four Gospels reveals that Matthew, Mark and Luke are noticeably similar, while John is quite different. The first three Gospels agree extensively in language, in the material they include, and in the order in which events and sayings from the life of Christ are recorded. (Chronological order does not appear to have been rigidly followed in any of the Gospels, however.) Because of this agreement, these three books are called the Synoptic Gospels (syn, “together with”; optic, “seeing”; thus “seeing together”).

What key points stand out to you in the Gospel of John
in comparison to the Synoptic Gospels?
How would you explain the impact that the Gospel
of John has had on you in your studies?

Romans 24:19 Let us pursue the things which make for peace
and the things by which one may edify another.
A Gospel harmony shows where the various Gospel authors were in harmony and where they were not all reporting the same verses or events. The Sermon on the Mount is found only in Matthew and Mark. All four Gospels include Jesus’ baptism and the feeding of the 5,000.

Blue Letter Bible, a Gospel harmony:
Harmony of the Gospels - Study Resources - Study Resources
 
Upvote 0

jd01

Active Member
Dec 12, 2011
163
11
Nova Scotia, Canada
✟3,330.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
A careful comparison of the four Gospels reveals that Matthew, Mark and Luke are noticeably similar, while John is quite different. The first three Gospels agree extensively in language, in the material they include, and in the order in which events and sayings from the life of Christ are recorded. (Chronological order does not appear to have been rigidly followed in any of the Gospels, however.) Because of this agreement, these three books are called the Synoptic Gospels (syn, “together with”; optic, “seeing”; thus “seeing together”).

What key points stand out to you in the Gospel of John
in comparison to the Synoptic Gospels?
How would you explain the impact that the Gospel
of John has had on you in your studies?

Romans 24:19 Let us pursue the things which make for peace
and the things by which one may edify another.

Matthew & Luke used both Mark and Q to compose their gospels. Both understood the source of Mark was Peter so each was careful not to alter the overall story arc. Since neither Matthew or Luke were eye-witnesses they copied Mark and Q and embellished and added extra stories they had heard, such as the birth narratives and genealogies. The bulk of the action in Mark & Q, and hence Matthew and Luke, is from Jesus' Galilean mission from mid 31 CE to late 32 CE. Eye-witness John on the other hand fills in the gaps in Mark by detailing the other ear of so of mission outside Galilee, primarily in and around Jerusalem

Since Mark is a pastiche of oral tellings from Peter it tends to be episodic, confused and in error at times. John, writing much later, and after hearing that Peter had been killed in Rome, wanted to provide the missing sections to Jesus story, so he composed a much more integrated and thoughtful account, so I find John to be the fullest account of Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

dqhall

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2015
7,547
4,172
Florida
Visit site
✟811,723.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Matthew & Luke used both Mark and Q to compose their gospels. Both understood the source of Mark was Peter so each was careful not to alter the overall story arc. Since neither Matthew or Luke were eye-witnesses they copied Mark and Q and embellished and added extra stories they had heard, such as the birth narratives and genealogies. The bulk of the action in Mark & Q, and hence Matthew and Luke, is from Jesus' Galilean mission from mid 31 CE to late 32 CE. Eye-witness John on the other hand fills in the gaps in Mark by detailing the other ear of so of mission outside Galilee, primarily in and around Jerusalem

Since Mark is a pastiche of oral tellings from Peter it tends to be episodic, confused and in error at times. John, writing much later, and after hearing that Peter had been killed in Rome, wanted to provide the missing sections to Jesus story, so he composed a much more integrated and thoughtful account, so I find John to be the fullest account of Jesus.
Is the Gospel writer Mark the John Mark described in Acts? Luke is also mentioned in Acts.
Who was John Mark in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
 
Upvote 0

DragonFox91

Well-Known Member
Dec 20, 2020
6,316
3,880
33
Grand Rapids MI
✟287,736.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Every gospel is unique in it's own way but still in harmony w/ each other. I don't buy the 'synoptic Gospels vs John' argument & am distraught that even churches teach it. IMO it's a ploy to get people to think John doesn't count or counts less.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,922
8,412
50
The Wild West
✟781,093.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Every gospel is unique in it's own way but still in harmony w/ each other. I don't buy the 'synoptic Gospels vs John' argument & am distraught that even churches teach it. IMO it's a ploy to get people to think John doesn't count or counts less.

First, let me say you are correct that there is a movement among some wacky theologians to deprecate the Gospel of John, and indeed one scholar, Robert Funk, of the infamous Jesus Seminar, went so far as to start a movement wherein John is viewed as unreliable and the uncanonical psuedepigraphical and/or compromised Gospel according to Thomas, which is basically a synoptic with heretical Gnostic interpolations, is promoted as being the oldest and most reliable Gospel. :doh: I could cite Karen King, Hal Taussig and Elaine Pagels, and quite possibly Bart Ehrman, as among those influenced by Funk and the Jesus Seminar.

And we have less extreme forms of anti-Johannine stupidity, for example, the book This Tragic Gospel: How John Corrupted the Heart of Christianity, by Louis Ruprecht which lauds the Gospel According to Mark and accuses the Gospel According to John of promoting a “less compassionate Christianity” on the baseless assertion that the the Gospel According to John has our Lord defiantly mock the prayer Jesus made in the Garden of Gesthemane, thus undermining the tragedy of his death and suffering; there is if I recall also an element of resurrection-denial in this work; one would presume that Ruprecht has never bothered to attend Easter at a traditional Church, where the first Gospel read is usually Mark 10:1-9.

The problem with “not buying” the concept of the Synoptic Gospels, however, aside from the fact that it does nothing to stop the followers of Funk and Ruprecht, is that it is an honest observation - it is a fact that there are several things only St. John reports, such as the miracle of the water into wine, and the majority of the disciples leaving our Lord on the basis of “this is a hard saying” when he explained the Eucharist, while there are also several things the Synoptics record that St. John does not record, for example, the Institution Narrative of the Eucharist (which is also in 1 Corinthians 11), the details of the Nativity, which are only recorded in St. Matthew and St. Luke, and several other incidents.

The reality that the synoptics and the Gospel According to John record different events has been acknowledged since the earliest days of the Church, and the traditional explanation, the oldest explanation, which I believe is found in second or third century sources, is that the Gospel According to St. John was written after the other Gospels (something even modern scholars tend to agree on; the main difference being modern scholars think Mark predates Matthew rather than vice-versa), and St. John the Theologian* included in his Gospel important details which had been omitted from the others.

Indeed even the term “Synoptic” is of great antiquity, being an Anglicization of synoptikos, a Koine Greek word that literally translates as “Seeing all together.” And the early church fathers who used this fan were huge fans of the Gospel of John; indeed, there was a heresy documented by St. Epiphanius of Salamis which consisted of people who rejected the Gospel of John; he mocked them by calling them “Alogoi” which if you know Biblical Greek and John 1:1-18, is pretty hilarious.

In general, the Gospel of John has usually been more popular than the synoptics, rather than less popular. The Gospels according to Luke and Matthew tend to tie for second place, and the Gospel of Mark tends to be the least popular, perhaps because historically the largest two rites of the Christian church, the Roman Rite, from which the Protestant liturgies of the Anglicans, Lutherans, Moravians and Methodists were developed, so, most of the Western church aside from aliturgical churches, and the Byzantine Rite, used by the Eastern Orthodox, which is the second largest denomination after the Roman Catholics (followed by the Anglicans, Lutherans, Reformed churches and the Oriental Orthodox), traditionally read Mark during the Lent fast, although since the 1970s, most Protestant churches have adopted the Revised Common Lectionary, based off of the lectionary of the Novus Ordo mass which replaced the Traditional Latin Mass, which Pope Francis is trying so hard to kill off, after Pope Benedict had removed restrictions on its use leading to a resurgence of pious Christian communities; these new lectionaries use a three year scheme in which Year A focuses on Matthew, Year B on Mark and Year C on Luke.

Now, if you are concerned about the deprecation of the Gospel of John, this lectionary is something worth objecting to, and unlike the term “synoptic Gospel” which does refer to an observable fact, the lectionary actually does represent an unintentional deprecation of the Gospel of John. The original plan was to increase the use of John, and it is read in all three years, so in that respect it is heard more frequently than the others, however, a surprising number of important pericopes are missing from the Revised Common Lectionary. Indeed, a Canadian Anglican priest, Michael Deller, wrote an interesting article comparing the amount of the Gospel of John read in tne old Anglican lectionary vs. the Revised Common Lectionary, and it is shocking; indeed, the title of his 2005 article in LiturgyCanada summarizes the issue nicely, The Disaster of the Revised Common Lectionary.

Dr. Timothy Slemmons, a professor at the Presbyterian seminary in Dubuque, has proposed and written considerable resources in support of “Year D”, which adds a fourth year dedicated exclusively to the Gospel of John, which has the effect of patching the Revised Common Lectionary so that the omitted texts are read and the Gospel of John gets its own year. However, some of the lessons he includes for major holidays in Year D are unexpected, relating to the subject matter but not satisfactorily narrating it, which is why I advocate going back to the traditional lectionaries. Also, I would estimate the number of churches still using traditional lectionaries in denominations that have otherwise transitioned to the RCL is orders of magnitude higher than the number that have adopted Year D.

Speaking of which, the old Anglican lectionary from traditional versions of the Book of Common Prayer, still in use in Continuing Anglican churches like those of my friends @Albion and @Shane R , and occasionally used even in other Anglican churches which have moved on to newer service books for most of their worship, like that of my friend @Paidiske ,who is not as much of a lectionary geek as I am, while still available in a fair number of parishes of the Church of England itself, manages to read the entire New Testament in a year, if one makes proper use of the Divine Office; likewise the Byzantine Rite will normally read the New Testament in a year, although in both churches, movable feasts can cause displacement.

The Coptic Rite also does this; in Coptic Holy Communion services more of the New Testament is read than in any other traditional liturgy, with lessons being read from the Pauline epistles, the Catholic epistles (not Roman Catholic, rather, this term refers to the Johannine epistles, the Petrine epistles, and those by St. James the Just and St. Jude the Apostle), the Book of Acts, and the Gospel, whereas in every other church, there will be an “epistle” which is anything other than the Gospels, followed by a Gospel lesson. Like the Byzantine Rite, the Coptic Rite continues in use everywhere; the only traditional lectionaries replaced by the RCL and related lectionaries are those of the Anglican and other Protestant churches, and those of the Roman and Ambrosian Rites in the Roman Catholic church. The replacement of the Ambrosian lectionary was particularly unfortunate, as it was based on the Gallican Rite lectionary, and it, along with the East Syriac lectionary still in use by the Assyrian Church of the East, is one of two ancient lectionaries that distinguish themselves by reading the Old Testament in the main liturgy, so the prophetic connection between it and the New Testament lesson is made immediately obvious; the other traditional liturgical rites usually read the Old Testament at Vespers in the evening, or at Matins or Lauds in the morning, the night before or the morning of the main service, but most of them were planned with the idea that you would hear the prophecy at the earlier service, and then an explanation of the theological concept in the epistle, and then the fulfillment of the prophecy in the Gospel lesson.

So if you want to strike a blow against those who, like Funk and Ruprecht, would deprecate the Gospel According to John, the way to do it I think is to advocate for reforming the Revised Common Lectionary with a Year D, perhaps an improved version over the one proposed by Slemmons, or reverting to traditional lectionaries.

*While some modernists disagree, the tradition of the Church is that St. John the Theologian, the evangelist and author of the Johannine epistles and the Apocalypse (Revelation) is the Beloved Disciple who was the only one of the Twelve Apostles (including St. Matthias, the replacement for Judas Iscariot ordained in Acts shortly before the descent of the Spirit on Pentecost) who was not martyred, but rather lived an exceptionally long life, and taught St. Polycarp of Smyrna and St. Ignatius of Antioch, the former was the tutor of St. Irenaeus of Lyons, one of the first theological scholars, and was martyred in the mid 2nd century, whereas St. Ignatius was famously fed to lions about fifty years earlier. St. Irenaeus was notable as an early Church Father who staunchly insisted there were only four legitimate Gospels, and likened them to the four winds, and mocked the Gnostics for their spurious and heretical Gospels.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,922
8,412
50
The Wild West
✟781,093.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Is the Gospel writer Mark the John Mark described in Acts? Luke is also mentioned in Acts.
Who was John Mark in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

Traditionally St. Mark the Evangelist is someone else, specifically, the owner of the house that contained the Cenacle, which I believe is now a Syriac Orthodox monastery in Jerusalem (the alternative location, favored by the Crusaders, who built a gothic structure there, is disputed with the Jews and Muslims; the Jews believe it is the tomb of David, and I strongly suspect they are right, given the errors the Crusaders tended to make in identifying holy sites). St. Mark the Evangelist is traditionally counted among the Seventy, was traditionally regarded as a disciple of St. Peter, whereas St. Luke the Evangelist was a disciple of St. Paul, and St. Mark is also believed to have been the first bishop of the Church of Alexandria, and as such is extremely widely venerated by the persecuted Coptic Orthodox and Alexandrian Greek Orthodox Christians of Egypt.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,922
8,412
50
The Wild West
✟781,093.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
John is my favorite Gospel because it is so much deeper than it looks to be on the surface, John was very close to Jesus and it shows. The prologue to John tells you everything you need to know to be saved but John goes on to show you who Jesus is and why. Also since John was written after some of the heresies became obvious he counters many of the misunderstanding that cause confusion on the Christology of Jesus. When people ask me what books to read first in the Bible I recommend John and Romans. John tells you everything you need to know about Jesus and Romans provides you with a systematic theology.

Indeed, the Gospel of John has always been extremely popular for this reason.

It used to be my favorite Gospel, after a long period where Matthew was my favorite; now, I no longer have a favorite but love all four equally.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,922
8,412
50
The Wild West
✟781,093.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
A Gospel harmony shows where the various Gospel authors were in harmony and where they were not all reporting the same verses or events. The Sermon on the Mount is found only in Matthew and Mark. All four Gospels include Jesus’ baptism and the feeding of the 5,000.

Blue Letter Bible, a Gospel harmony:
Harmony of the Gospels - Study Resources - Study Resources

I have to confess I really dislike Gospel Harmonies, especially those like the Diatessaron which weave the four Gospels into a unified narrative. I find them boring, lacking the unique and interesting perspectives of the evangelists.
 
Upvote 0

disciple Clint

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2018
15,259
5,997
Pacific Northwest
✟216,150.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Matthew & Luke used both Mark and Q to compose their gospels. Both understood the source of Mark was Peter so each was careful not to alter the overall story arc. Since neither Matthew or Luke were eye-witnesses they copied Mark and Q and embellished and added extra stories they had heard, such as the birth narratives and genealogies. The bulk of the action in Mark & Q, and hence Matthew and Luke, is from Jesus' Galilean mission from mid 31 CE to late 32 CE. Eye-witness John on the other hand fills in the gaps in Mark by detailing the other ear of so of mission outside Galilee, primarily in and around Jerusalem

Since Mark is a pastiche of oral tellings from Peter it tends to be episodic, confused and in error at times. John, writing much later, and after hearing that Peter had been killed in Rome, wanted to provide the missing sections to Jesus story, so he composed a much more integrated and thoughtful account, so I find John to be the fullest account of Jesus.
Matthew was not an eye-witnesses? News to me.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,922
8,412
50
The Wild West
✟781,093.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Matthew was not an eye-witnesses? News to me.

There is a school of thought that postulates the author of the Greek Gospel According to Matthew was not an eyewitness, and was not St. Matthew the Apostle, rather, that St. Matthew wrote a lost Aramaic Gospel, perhaps the one known as “The Gospel of the Hebrews” which then served as the source for Greek Matthew, along with Mark and Q, with Mark, Q and an unknown L source informing the Gospel According to Luke.

I myself accept the traditional accounts of the origin of the Gospels according to Mark and Luke; regarding Matthew, I think it is possible that someone wrote a new Greek gospel which was substantially similar to an Aramaic Gospel written by Matthew, but which was written in Greek for the benefit of Hellenic Jews. The reason for believing this is that the tradition of the early church is that Matthew was originally written in what we would call Aramaic, but the Gospel we have, if analyzed philologically, shows itself to not be a translation from Aramaic into Greek but an original Greek composition.

I would note there is no compelling reason to accept the modern narrative that the Gospel of Mark predates Luke and Matthew. There is a compelling reason to accept the modern view that the Gospel of John postdates them, and that is simply because the fathers of the early Church said the same thing.
 
Upvote 0

disciple Clint

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2018
15,259
5,997
Pacific Northwest
✟216,150.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
There is a school of thought that postulates the author of the Greek Gospel According to Matthew was not an eyewitness, and was not St. Matthew the Apostle, rather, that St. Matthew wrote a lost Aramaic Gospel, perhaps the one known as “The Gospel of the Hebrews” which then served as the source for Greek Matthew, along with Mark and Q, with Mark, Q and an unknown L source informing the Gospel According to Luke.

I myself accept the traditional accounts of the origin of the Gospels according to Mark and Luke; regarding Matthew, I think it is possible that someone wrote a new Greek gospel which was substantially similar to an Aramaic Gospel written by Matthew, but which was written in Greek for the benefit of Hellenic Jews. The reason for believing this is that the tradition of the early church is that Matthew was originally written in what we would call Aramaic, but the Gospel we have, if analyzed philologically, shows itself to not be a translation from Aramaic into Greek but an original Greek composition.

I would note there is no compelling reason to accept the modern narrative that the Gospel of Mark predates Luke and Matthew. There is a compelling reason to accept the modern view that the Gospel of John postdates them, and that is simply because the fathers of the early Church said the same thing.
It is always amazing to me that there continue to be new schools of thought on something as old as the bible. There are some very interesting theories but some seem so far from plausible that I spend very little time reading them.
 
Upvote 0

Minister Monardo

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,725
3,541
69
Arizona
✟204,233.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
First, let me say you are correct that there is a movement among some wacky theologians to deprecate the Gospel of John, and indeed one scholar, Robert Funk, of the infamous Jesus Seminar, went so far as to start a movement wherein John is viewed as unreliable and the uncanonical psuedepigraphical and/or compromised Gospel according to Thomas, which is basically a synoptic with heretical Gnostic interpolations, is promoted as being the oldest and most reliable Gospel. :doh: I could cite Karen King, Hal Taussig and Elaine Pagels, and quite possibly Bart Ehrman, as among those influenced by Funk and the Jesus Seminar.

And we have less extreme forms of anti-Johannine stupidity, for example, the book This Tragic Gospel: How John Corrupted the Heart of Christianity, by Louis Ruprecht which lauds the Gospel According to Mark and accuses the Gospel According to John of promoting a “less compassionate Christianity” on the baseless assertion that the the Gospel According to John has our Lord defiantly mock the prayer Jesus made in the Garden of Gesthemane, thus undermining the tragedy of his death and suffering; there is if I recall also an element of resurrection-denial in this work; one would presume that Ruprecht has never bothered to attend Easter at a traditional Church, where the first Gospel read is usually Mark 10:1-9.
Sounds like a simple case of:
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". John 3:6
Or, as Paul refers to those who are "vainly puffed-up in their fleshly mind". Colossians 2:18
John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.
The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.


Thank you St. John. I cannot imagine how anyone can comprehend the apostolic doctrines
without these foundational truths. Romans 7 and 8? Those who struggle with Paul, in general?

John 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

A critical lesson from John the baptist that is not found in the Synoptic Gospels,
but is provided in John 3:27-36. And yet it would seem to be widely overlooked.

John 3:31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly
and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
John 8:23 And He said to them,
You are from beneath; I am from above.
You are of this world; I am not of this world.

"from above"=anothen [G509] used in John 3:7 and translated 'again',
but literally
'from above'.
Now, as the Baptist states:

John 3:27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been
given to him from heaven.

And so we learn from James
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down
from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

and,
James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle,
willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

Imagine the Gospels without this one word used repeatedly by John:
[G3306] meno=abide, remain, and continue used 41 times in his Gospel,
and 23 times in first John.

1 John 2:24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning.
If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son
and in the Father.

The teachings of the apostle John are primary weapons of my spiritual warfare.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,922
8,412
50
The Wild West
✟781,093.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
It is always amazing to me that there continue to be new schools of thought on something as old as the bible. There are some very interesting theories but some seem so far from plausible that I spend very little time reading them.

Well, the Q source hypothesis is new only relative to the history of Christianity. It is a fact that discovery of new manuscripts, specifically the Alexandrian text type of the New Testament, and the developments, since the late 1700s, in philology and textual criticism, as well as careful scrutiny of the most ancient manuscripts, have provided us new insights into the Bible.

However, I am firmly against some forms of “higher criticism” which is analysis other than textual, or “lower criticism”, because while the latter seeks, through objective means, to try to determine the most reliable manuscripts, and also identify interpolations and also scribal errors, which should be documented, and avoided, respectively, the former is a much more subjective field, and some avenues of higher criticism make decisions I don’t think we should make without consulting the traditions of the early church.

An example of this would be three well known probable interpolations, the first two identified through textual criticism through manuscript analysis, and the specifically because they are not attested in the oldest known manuscripts: the Longer Ending of Mark (Mark 10:10-16), and the Comma Johanneum in 1 John 5:7-9, which explicitly identifies the persons of the Trinity who are otherwise implied. Then there is the Adultery Pericope (John 8:1-20) where textual criticism is less clear but higher criticism suggests St. John the Beloved probably did not write it, and one thing textual criticism can say is that it is found in manuscripts of texts other than the Gospel According to John. Many newer bibles like the NIV simply omit the longer ending of Mark and the Comma Johanneum, while usually making a subjective decision that the Adultery Pericope in John was worth retaining, although I know of one particularly liberal Bible edition which omits it.

I am of the view that while educated Christian readers should be aware that these are not attested in the oldest manuscripts, there is no compelling reason to remove any of them. Of these, the only one which seems an obvious post-apostolic writing is the Comma Johanneum, but it is also harmless; indeed, it is doctrinally correct and makes explicit what was implicit, which is of benefit for less educated laity.

I see no reason to doubt that our Lord said what is recorded in the Longer Ending of Mark, and the inclusion of this text seems further justified by its presence in the Byzantine text type which is the basis for the Textus Receptus or Majority Text, and which also is the textual variant used by the second and third oldest surviving translations of the New Testament (namely, the Syriac Peshitta and the Latin Vulgate; the older Vetus Latina, which is the oldest extant translation into classical Latin, which was replaced for purposes of the lectionary by St. Jerome’s Vulgate, but was retained in liturgical phrases in the Latin liturgy, most notably “Gloria in Exclesis Deo”, which represents the kind of Classical Latin which is inherently more beautiful than the more vulgar, which is to say, later and less elegant, “Gloria in Altissimus Deo” we find in the Vulgate, uses the obscure Western text type). Indeed, Mark 16:9-20 is even found in the aforementioned second century Vetus Latina, which really validates its antiquity; I see no reason why it should be deleted simply because it is absent from the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus.* Now, from a catechtical perspective, of late (by which I mean for at least a century) this pericope has been abused in a particularly annoying manner, by the notorious Snake Handling Pentecostals of the Appalachians as justification for their reckless worship, however, the fact that a text is read out of context and abused by churches with strange, heterodox or even heretical beliefs is not justification for removing it, because virtually all parts of the Bible have been abused in that way.

This takes us to the adultery pericope; there was a controversy over some manuscripts omitting it even in the early Church. Higher criticism and its presence in some manuscripts of the Didascalia and other texts, and according to Eusebius of Caesarea in the Gospel of the Hebrews suggests it is not of Johannine authorship, but it is extremely important, and is in some of the oldest manuscripts, indeed it is in the Vetus Latina and the Vulgate, and while the Greek fathers who exposited the scriptures book by book, like St. Chrysostom, do not mention it, it was clearly very important to the Latin fathers. It is also in the Greek Codex Vaticanus, albeit marked with an umlaut character indicating its provenance was not certain.

Now, some important context is the Roman church, where this pericope was well regarded, was arguably the most conservative in the third, fourth and most of the second and fifth century, managing to avoid innovations and controversy except during Pope St. Victor, who attempted to flex over the Church in Corinth, which was not in his jurisdiction, but was corrected by one of his own bishops, St. Irenaeus of Lyons; it was also Pope Victor (technically Bishop Victor, as the title Pope was first used by the Bishop of Alexandria in the 3rd century and not adopted in Rome for another 300 years or so) did make a rare but justifiable innovation in having the first Latin Bible, the Vetus Latina, composed, and in introducing Latin language church services, which had the very positive effect of opening up the Roman church to the less wealthy and less well educated common folk of ancient Rome; previously the exclusive use of the Greek language denied these members of Roman society easy access to the Church, even as the Eastern church starting with St. Thomas used Aramaic and Syriac as it followed the Jewish trade routes through Edessa, Syria and Mesopotamia to Kerala, India, home of the Kochin Jews since the second century AD**, but converting Jews and Gentiles alike, thanks to the lingua franca that was Syriac Aramaic. That justifiable innovation aside, the Roman church tended to avoid change as much as possible. Indeed, it did not introduce antiphonal hymns, which were the standard in the Greek, Coptic, Syriac, Armenian and Ethiopian churches, until St. Ambrose introduced them in the 380s in a vigil to keep the Arians from taking possession of a basilica in Milan, of which he was bishop. This extreme conservativism was not without benefit however, as Rome managed to avoid being on the wrong side of any heresies until Pope Honorius I in the late sixth century, who was a Monothelite, and the only Pope deposed, albeit after his death, for heresy (in the 14th-17th century Honorius I acquired a certain legendary infamy, believed by some Catholic and Protestant laity to be a sorcerer, with a grimoire spuriously attributed to him). This was a very good record, considering that the other three major autocephalous churches, namely Antioch, Alexandria and Constantinople, and possibly the next most important autocephalous church, Jerusalem, all suffered from heretical bishops, although in the case of Alexandria these bishops were Arians illegally appointed by the Arian emperors to replace St. Athanasius, who was in exile until around 360 AD, and were despised by the people.

So when we consider how conservative the Roman church was, and that of the adultery pericope, its removal was associated by no lees a man than St. Athanasius with Novatian and Donatist heretics***, proactive higher criticism that suggests it should be removed seems gravely misguided.

Finally, I think biblical criticism at its worse is in the 19th century monstrosity of Source Criticism that dominated seminaries for decades, the Documentary Hypothesis, which was only seriously challenged in the 70s, and still had adherents even today, particularly among older seminary educated clergy. The Documentary Hypothesis, in brief, argues that the Pentateuch (Torah) was cobbled together or otherwise edited by four figures, the Priestly Source, the El source, the Yahwist source, and the Deuteronomist, which is an idea predicated on the belief that Hebrews were not originally Monotheistic, and became monotheistic after a period of Henotheism preceded by Polytheism, that El-Elyon and YHWH were originally separate deities, that El may possibly have been connected to Ba’al or was Ba’al (or Bel), basically a Semitic word meaning Master, or that El-Elyon was the Northern , and that four people with their own agendas collectively composed the Torah:

  • The Yahwist, or J source, who wrote from a Judean perspective and had a particular interest in the history of Judah, and depicted YHWH in an anthropomorphological way. The J source is alleged to be critical of the Northern tribes, and despite anthropomorphic depictions of God, paradoxically also stressed his separation from humanity, as well as the progressive decline of human civilization into disobedience and sinfulness.
  • The Elohimist, or E source, who wrote from the perspective of the Northern Kingdom and from a historical perspective stressed Northern heroes such as Joseph, and the ancestors of the ten Northern tribes****. E was less anthropomorphic, and despite being complimentary towards Levi and the Levites, was critical of Aaron (and presumably of the Aaronic Priesthood; I find this particularly difficult to swallow given the Samaritans, the descendants of the Northern Kingdom, have Kohanim who based on genetics appear, like their Jewish counterparts, to be at least somewhat likely to share a common ancestor, who is believed to be Aaron in the Samaritan religion.
  • The Priestly, or P source, who was chiefly interested in exalting the hereditary priesthood, and in describing the liturgical services and sacrificial rituals with great detail, and underscoring their importance to Israel.
  • The Deuteronomist, or D source, which the most recent interpretations of the Documentary Hypothesis regarded as being Levite refugees from the Northern Kingdom, who resettled in Judah following the Assyrian conquest, bringing with them the belief that only El-Elyon, who they identified with YHWH, was worthy of worship (although other deities might have been recognized as existing at this point, but as evil deities, a belief system known as Henotheism. As the name implies, the Deuteronomist Source, or Deuteronomists as we might call them, were argued to be responsible for that book, while the Priestly, Elohist and Yahwist sources were credited with the other four, the so-called Tetrateuch, which the D source also edited. When Babylon conquered Judah, D focused on providing a theological understanding for this, by stressing in Deuteronomy the idea of covenant theology, and also by documenting the history of St. Jeremiah the Prophet, who I believe some proponents of this hypothesis would claim was a Deuteronomist. After the return from exile after the fall of Babylon, the introduction to Deuteronomy was rewritten and additional laws were added. D was credited, in addition to Deuteronomy and Jeremiah (and one might assume Lamentations) with the authorship of Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings. While the idea of an editor who completed the Torah and wrote Joshua seems plausible enough, one problem is the nearly identical Samaritan Torah, whereas they have their own completely different Book of Joshua (of course, they could have edited their Torah to make it closer to the Jewish one, perhaps because they believed it better narrated the death of St. Moses; another is that before the implementation of the reading of the entire Torah in the Temple and in synagogues by St. Esdras (Ezra)*****, the priest who partnered with St. Nehemiah the Prophet to organize this system, the basics of the Law were read by the King as part of his royal duties to the assembled people of Israel at Sukhot, the Feast of Tabernacles, from the book of Deuteronomy.
There is more to it than this, of course; indeed the theology as fully developed is fiendishly complex, as shown by this diagram:

288px-Modern_document_hypothesis.svg.png


So for me, a traditionalist priest, the aforementioned liturgical discrepancy concerning the D source, although not impossible to resolve, combines with every other non-traditional belief including this presumptive progressive metamorphosis from polytheism to monotheism via paganism, to shoot down this hypothesis (which it must be stressed, is not a theory, because theories must be falsifiable according to the Scientific Method, and the Documentary Source Hypothesis cannot be tested in a definitive way, but only against subjective alternative Biblical scholarship, and also the traditions of the Christian faith and what the Scriptures themselves say of their history. Ergo scholars less bound by tradition and a belief in the inspired nature and honesty of Scripture than myself naturally rejected it based on more “scholarly reasons.”:

Despite its complexity, and for me at least, a lack of credibility, I still encounter this system among older clergy, for example, a retired Episcopalian priest I am friends with.

Before the obligatory footnotes I attach to a post like this, I feel a desire to ask some of my seminary-educated friends @Deegie @Paidiske @Shane R and @GreekOrthodox if when they were in Seminary this was still being taught, or if it had been set aside in favor of newer and better source theories, or was simply not used, with the traditional belief that Moses composed most of the Pentateuch except for the obvious portions dealing with his demise, which seem to flow effortlessly into the historical narrative of Joshua, his successor, taught instead.

*The two primary Alexandrian manuscripts that include the Alexandrian form of the Gospels; the former was mostly stolen from the Greek Orthodox Monastery of St. Catharine in Sinai by a German adventurer in the 19th century who intended to sell it to the Russian State Library, which has a small fragment, but most was instead sold to the British library, and the monastery managed to hang on to another fragment which was only recently discovered; the latter is owned by the Vatican, indeed, it has been in the Vatican Library since it opened in the 15th century and is believed to have been received from the Eastern Orthodox during the attempted reunification at the Council of Florence; before that, it was believed to have been in Caesarea for some time and to have been written in Alexandria; in the fourth century both Rome and Constantinople ordered a large number of Bibles for the time (about fifty each) from the Church of Alexandria and the theological school in Caesarea in Judaea under Eusebius, but knowing exactly where this Bible was composed, where it was composed, and what it was used for is impossible; all we know is that it, Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus are all very ancient, and represent the Alexandrian text type (except for the Gospels in Alexandrinus, which lean to the Byzantine type.

** a handful of whom live there today, although the synagogues normally cannot get a minyan (in Orthodox Rabbinical synagogues, a quorum of ten or more male Jews who have had the Bar Mitzvah required for davening, that is to say, congregational Jewish prayer); most emigrated to India and elsewhere, most notably Vidal Sassoon, whose family according to the 1906 Jewish encyclopedia was particularly important among Indian Jewry.

*** St. Augustine specifically endorsed John 8:1-20 “Certain persons of little faith, or rather enemies of the true faith, fearing, I suppose, lest their wives should be given impunity in sinning, removed from their manuscripts the Lord's act of forgiveness toward the adulteress, as if he who had said, Sin no more, had granted permission to sin.”

**** Of course, Levites also remained in the Kingdom of Judah, and there are Jews descended from Levites and Kohanim even now; the last names Levy and Cohen (among Syriac and Antiochian Orthodox Christians of Jewish descent, Khoury, an Arabic word meaning Priest, is often used by those who would be called Cohen otherwise; also the Russian word Kaplan, which literally means Chaplain, is found).

***** The system of synagogue worship, and the equivalent reading of the Bible to the extent it existed at that time in both the thrice daily prayers in the Synagogue and at the Temple, a system which began to be implemented by St. Ezra the Priest, is the basis for Christian worship going back to the early church, which stressed three daily prayers, the timing of which was determined by the need to hide from Roman and Jewish persecutors, often in catacombs or seminaries where martyrs were buried, with the main services being Vespers at sunset, Matins or Vigils at midnight, which could be followed, especially on Sunday, if a bishop, or later, a presbyter, was present, of the bloodless and rational sacrifice of the Eucharist, or Holt Communion, and Lauds at Sunrise. This contrasts with Jewish worship and the worship of Christianity after persecution, for example, the more relaxed Anglican divine office consisting of Morning Prayer, the Litany and/or the Eucharistic liturgy or at least the reading of its Bible lessons and a sermon, known as “Ante Communion”, and Vespers; likewise the daily and Sabbath Jewish prayers are in the morning, afternoon and evening.
 
Upvote 0

Minister Monardo

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,725
3,541
69
Arizona
✟204,233.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
It is always amazing to me that there continue to be new schools of thought on something as old as the bible. There are some very interesting theories but some seem so far from plausible that I spend very little time reading them.
Hearken, O Israel!
Ephesians 4:
4 One body and one Spirit
, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who above all, and through all, and in you all.
 
Upvote 0

disciple Clint

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2018
15,259
5,997
Pacific Northwest
✟216,150.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Well, the Q source hypothesis is new only relative to the history of Christianity. It is a fact that discovery of new manuscripts, specifically the Alexandrian text type of the New Testament, and the developments, since the late 1700s, in philology and textual criticism, as well as careful scrutiny of the most ancient manuscripts, have provided us new insights into the Bible.

However, I am firmly against some forms of “higher criticism” which is analysis other than textual, or “lower criticism”, because while the latter seeks, through objective means, to try to determine the most reliable manuscripts, and also identify interpolations and also scribal errors, which should be documented, and avoided, respectively, the former is a much more subjective field, and some avenues of higher criticism make decisions I don’t think we should make without consulting the traditions of the early church.

An example of this would be three well known probable interpolations, the first two identified through textual criticism through manuscript analysis, and the specifically because they are not attested in the oldest known manuscripts: the Longer Ending of Mark (Mark 10:10-16), and the Comma Johanneum in 1 John 5:7-9, which explicitly identifies the persons of the Trinity who are otherwise implied. Then there is the Adultery Pericope (John 8:1-20) where textual criticism is less clear but higher criticism suggests St. John the Beloved probably did not write it, and one thing textual criticism can say is that it is found in manuscripts of texts other than the Gospel According to John. Many newer bibles like the NIV simply omit the longer ending of Mark and the Comma Johanneum, while usually making a subjective decision that the Adultery Pericope in John was worth retaining, although I know of one particularly liberal Bible edition which omits it.

I am of the view that while educated Christian readers should be aware that these are not attested in the oldest manuscripts, there is no compelling reason to remove any of them. Of these, the only one which seems an obvious post-apostolic writing is the Comma Johanneum, but it is also harmless; indeed, it is doctrinally correct and makes explicit what was implicit, which is of benefit for less educated laity.

I see no reason to doubt that our Lord said what is recorded in the Longer Ending of Mark, and the inclusion of this text seems further justified by its presence in the Byzantine text type which is the basis for the Textus Receptus or Majority Text, and which also is the textual variant used by the second and third oldest surviving translations of the New Testament (namely, the Syriac Peshitta and the Latin Vulgate; the older Vetus Latina, which is the oldest extant translation into classical Latin, which was replaced for purposes of the lectionary by St. Jerome’s Vulgate, but was retained in liturgical phrases in the Latin liturgy, most notably “Gloria in Exclesis Deo”, which represents the kind of Classical Latin which is inherently more beautiful than the more vulgar, which is to say, later and less elegant, “Gloria in Altissimus Deo” we find in the Vulgate, uses the obscure Western text type). Indeed, Mark 16:9-20 is even found in the aforementioned second century Vetus Latina, which really validates its antiquity; I see no reason why it should be deleted simply because it is absent from the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus.* Now, from a catechtical perspective, of late (by which I mean for at least a century) this pericope has been abused in a particularly annoying manner, by the notorious Snake Handling Pentecostals of the Appalachians as justification for their reckless worship, however, the fact that a text is read out of context and abused by churches with strange, heterodox or even heretical beliefs is not justification for removing it, because virtually all parts of the Bible have been abused in that way.

This takes us to the adultery pericope; there was a controversy over some manuscripts omitting it even in the early Church. Higher criticism and its presence in some manuscripts of the Didascalia and other texts, and according to Eusebius of Caesarea in the Gospel of the Hebrews suggests it is not of Johannine authorship, but it is extremely important, and is in some of the oldest manuscripts, indeed it is in the Vetus Latina and the Vulgate, and while the Greek fathers who exposited the scriptures book by book, like St. Chrysostom, do not mention it, it was clearly very important to the Latin fathers. It is also in the Greek Codex Vaticanus, albeit marked with an umlaut character indicating its provenance was not certain.

Now, some important context is the Roman church, where this pericope was well regarded, was arguably the most conservative in the third, fourth and most of the second and fifth century, managing to avoid innovations and controversy except during Pope St. Victor, who attempted to flex over the Church in Corinth, which was not in his jurisdiction, but was corrected by one of his own bishops, St. Irenaeus of Lyons; it was also Pope Victor (technically Bishop Victor, as the title Pope was first used by the Bishop of Alexandria in the 3rd century and not adopted in Rome for another 300 years or so) did make a rare but justifiable innovation in having the first Latin Bible, the Vetus Latina, composed, and in introducing Latin language church services, which had the very positive effect of opening up the Roman church to the less wealthy and less well educated common folk of ancient Rome; previously the exclusive use of the Greek language denied these members of Roman society easy access to the Church, even as the Eastern church starting with St. Thomas used Aramaic and Syriac as it followed the Jewish trade routes through Edessa, Syria and Mesopotamia to Kerala, India, home of the Kochin Jews since the second century AD**, but converting Jews and Gentiles alike, thanks to the lingua franca that was Syriac Aramaic. That justifiable innovation aside, the Roman church tended to avoid change as much as possible. Indeed, it did not introduce antiphonal hymns, which were the standard in the Greek, Coptic, Syriac, Armenian and Ethiopian churches, until St. Ambrose introduced them in the 380s in a vigil to keep the Arians from taking possession of a basilica in Milan, of which he was bishop. This extreme conservativism was not without benefit however, as Rome managed to avoid being on the wrong side of any heresies until Pope Honorius I in the late sixth century, who was a Monothelite, and the only Pope deposed, albeit after his death, for heresy (in the 14th-17th century Honorius I acquired a certain legendary infamy, believed by some Catholic and Protestant laity to be a sorcerer, with a grimoire spuriously attributed to him). This was a very good record, considering that the other three major autocephalous churches, namely Antioch, Alexandria and Constantinople, and possibly the next most important autocephalous church, Jerusalem, all suffered from heretical bishops, although in the case of Alexandria these bishops were Arians illegally appointed by the Arian emperors to replace St. Athanasius, who was in exile until around 360 AD, and were despised by the people.

So when we consider how conservative the Roman church was, and that of the adultery pericope, its removal was associated by no lees a man than St. Athanasius with Novatian and Donatist heretics***, proactive higher criticism that suggests it should be removed seems gravely misguided.

Finally, I think biblical criticism at its worse is in the 19th century monstrosity of Source Criticism that dominated seminaries for decades, the Documentary Hypothesis, which was only seriously challenged in the 70s, and still had adherents even today, particularly among older seminary educated clergy. The Documentary Hypothesis, in brief, argues that the Pentateuch (Torah) was cobbled together or otherwise edited by four figures, the Priestly Source, the El source, the Yahwist source, and the Deuteronomist, which is an idea predicated on the belief that Hebrews were not originally Monotheistic, and became monotheistic after a period of Henotheism preceded by Polytheism, that El-Elyon and YHWH were originally separate deities, that El may possibly have been connected to Ba’al or was Ba’al (or Bel), basically a Semitic word meaning Master, or that El-Elyon was the Northern , and that four people with their own agendas collectively composed the Torah:

  • The Yahwist, or J source, who wrote from a Judean perspective and had a particular interest in the history of Judah, and depicted YHWH in an anthropomorphological way. The J source is alleged to be critical of the Northern tribes, and despite anthropomorphic depictions of God, paradoxically also stressed his separation from humanity, as well as the progressive decline of human civilization into disobedience and sinfulness.
  • The Elohimist, or E source, who wrote from the perspective of the Northern Kingdom and from a historical perspective stressed Northern heroes such as Joseph, and the ancestors of the ten Northern tribes****. E was less anthropomorphic, and despite being complimentary towards Levi and the Levites, was critical of Aaron (and presumably of the Aaronic Priesthood; I find this particularly difficult to swallow given the Samaritans, the descendants of the Northern Kingdom, have Kohanim who based on genetics appear, like their Jewish counterparts, to be at least somewhat likely to share a common ancestor, who is believed to be Aaron in the Samaritan religion.
  • The Priestly, or P source, who was chiefly interested in exalting the hereditary priesthood, and in describing the liturgical services and sacrificial rituals with great detail, and underscoring their importance to Israel.
  • The Deuteronomist, or D source, which the most recent interpretations of the Documentary Hypothesis regarded as being Levite refugees from the Northern Kingdom, who resettled in Judah following the Assyrian conquest, bringing with them the belief that only El-Elyon, who they identified with YHWH, was worthy of worship (although other deities might have been recognized as existing at this point, but as evil deities, a belief system known as Henotheism. As the name implies, the Deuteronomist Source, or Deuteronomists as we might call them, were argued to be responsible for that book, while the Priestly, Elohist and Yahwist sources were credited with the other four, the so-called Tetrateuch, which the D source also edited. When Babylon conquered Judah, D focused on providing a theological understanding for this, by stressing in Deuteronomy the idea of covenant theology, and also by documenting the history of St. Jeremiah the Prophet, who I believe some proponents of this hypothesis would claim was a Deuteronomist. After the return from exile after the fall of Babylon, the introduction to Deuteronomy was rewritten and additional laws were added. D was credited, in addition to Deuteronomy and Jeremiah (and one might assume Lamentations) with the authorship of Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings. While the idea of an editor who completed the Torah and wrote Joshua seems plausible enough, one problem is the nearly identical Samaritan Torah, whereas they have their own completely different Book of Joshua (of course, they could have edited their Torah to make it closer to the Jewish one, perhaps because they believed it better narrated the death of St. Moses; another is that before the implementation of the reading of the entire Torah in the Temple and in synagogues by St. Esdras (Ezra)*****, the priest who partnered with St. Nehemiah the Prophet to organize this system, the basics of the Law were read by the King as part of his royal duties to the assembled people of Israel at Sukhot, the Feast of Tabernacles, from the book of Deuteronomy.
There is more to it than this, of course; indeed the theology as fully developed is fiendishly complex, as shown by this diagram:

288px-Modern_document_hypothesis.svg.png


So for me, a traditionalist priest, the aforementioned liturgical discrepancy concerning the D source, although not impossible to resolve, combines with every other non-traditional belief including this presumptive progressive metamorphosis from polytheism to monotheism via paganism, to shoot down this hypothesis (which it must be stressed, is not a theory, because theories must be falsifiable according to the Scientific Method, and the Documentary Source Hypothesis cannot be tested in a definitive way, but only against subjective alternative Biblical scholarship, and also the traditions of the Christian faith and what the Scriptures themselves say of their history. Ergo scholars less bound by tradition and a belief in the inspired nature and honesty of Scripture than myself naturally rejected it based on more “scholarly reasons.”:

Despite its complexity, and for me at least, a lack of credibility, I still encounter this system among older clergy, for example, a retired Episcopalian priest I am friends with.

Before the obligatory footnotes I attach to a post like this, I feel a desire to ask some of my seminary-educated friends @Deegie @Paidiske @Shane R and @GreekOrthodox if when they were in Seminary this was still being taught, or if it had been set aside in favor of newer and better source theories, or was simply not used, with the traditional belief that Moses composed most of the Pentateuch except for the obvious portions dealing with his demise, which seem to flow effortlessly into the historical narrative of Joshua, his successor, taught instead.

*The two primary Alexandrian manuscripts that include the Alexandrian form of the Gospels; the former was mostly stolen from the Greek Orthodox Monastery of St. Catharine in Sinai by a German adventurer in the 19th century who intended to sell it to the Russian State Library, which has a small fragment, but most was instead sold to the British library, and the monastery managed to hang on to another fragment which was only recently discovered; the latter is owned by the Vatican, indeed, it has been in the Vatican Library since it opened in the 15th century and is believed to have been received from the Eastern Orthodox during the attempted reunification at the Council of Florence; before that, it was believed to have been in Caesarea for some time and to have been written in Alexandria; in the fourth century both Rome and Constantinople ordered a large number of Bibles for the time (about fifty each) from the Church of Alexandria and the theological school in Caesarea in Judaea under Eusebius, but knowing exactly where this Bible was composed, where it was composed, and what it was used for is impossible; all we know is that it, Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus are all very ancient, and represent the Alexandrian text type (except for the Gospels in Alexandrinus, which lean to the Byzantine type.

** a handful of whom live there today, although the synagogues normally cannot get a minyan (in Orthodox Rabbinical synagogues, a quorum of ten or more male Jews who have had the Bar Mitzvah required for davening, that is to say, congregational Jewish prayer); most emigrated to India and elsewhere, most notably Vidal Sassoon, whose family according to the 1906 Jewish encyclopedia was particularly important among Indian Jewry.

*** St. Augustine specifically endorsed John 8:1-20 “Certain persons of little faith, or rather enemies of the true faith, fearing, I suppose, lest their wives should be given impunity in sinning, removed from their manuscripts the Lord's act of forgiveness toward the adulteress, as if he who had said, Sin no more, had granted permission to sin.”

**** Of course, Levites also remained in the Kingdom of Judah, and there are Jews descended from Levites and Kohanim even now; the last names Levy and Cohen (among Syriac and Antiochian Orthodox Christians of Jewish descent, Khoury, an Arabic word meaning Priest, is often used by those who would be called Cohen otherwise; also the Russian word Kaplan, which literally means Chaplain, is found).

***** The system of synagogue worship, and the equivalent reading of the Bible to the extent it existed at that time in both the thrice daily prayers in the Synagogue and at the Temple, a system which began to be implemented by St. Ezra the Priest, is the basis for Christian worship going back to the early church, which stressed three daily prayers, the timing of which was determined by the need to hide from Roman and Jewish persecutors, often in catacombs or seminaries where martyrs were buried, with the main services being Vespers at sunset, Matins or Vigils at midnight, which could be followed, especially on Sunday, if a bishop, or later, a presbyter, was present, of the bloodless and rational sacrifice of the Eucharist, or Holt Communion, and Lauds at Sunrise. This contrasts with Jewish worship and the worship of Christianity after persecution, for example, the more relaxed Anglican divine office consisting of Morning Prayer, the Litany and/or the Eucharistic liturgy or at least the reading of its Bible lessons and a sermon, known as “Ante Communion”, and Vespers; likewise the daily and Sabbath Jewish prayers are in the morning, afternoon and evening.
Nice post, I saved it to my study notes so I can spend some time with it.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

dqhall

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2015
7,547
4,172
Florida
Visit site
✟811,723.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Traditionally St. Mark the Evangelist is someone else, specifically, the owner of the house that contained the Cenacle, which I believe is now a Syriac Orthodox monastery in Jerusalem (the alternative location, favored by the Crusaders, who built a gothic structure there, is disputed with the Jews and Muslims; the Jews believe it is the tomb of David, and I strongly suspect they are right, given the errors the Crusaders tended to make in identifying holy sites). St. Mark the Evangelist is traditionally counted among the Seventy, was traditionally regarded as a disciple of St. Peter, whereas St. Luke the Evangelist was a disciple of St. Paul, and St. Mark is also believed to have been the first bishop of the Church of Alexandria, and as such is extremely widely venerated by the persecuted Coptic Orthodox and Alexandrian Greek Orthodox Christians of Egypt.
Eusebius wrote about Mark being martyred in Egypt in his book, “Ecclesiastical History.”

I toured Israel before. The Christian Holy Sites in Israel seem to be the result of guess work. Sometimes they contradict each other.

The Roman Catholics have the Church of the Annunciation where they claim Mary was in her kitchen when visited by an angel announcing she was highly favored. It is below ground and was probably once used as a cistern.

The Greek Orthodox Church of St. Gabriel is in Mary’s Well Square over the site of a well spring where Mary was supposed to have been drawing water when an angel visited her to announce her calling.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Minister Monardo

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,725
3,541
69
Arizona
✟204,233.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
There is more to it than this, of course; indeed the theology as fully developed is fiendishly complex, as shown by this diagram:
As God is my witness, I have never studied any of this, and for this I give Him
thanks and praise. My focus has always been on first, breaking down the NT by keyword,
comparing every verse where the word is used, to see the common authorship throughout.
Understanding these words from a Hebrew perspective by finding the equivalent OT teaching,
beginning with verses that were quoted by the NT writers.
Understanding how important the Psalms and Isaiah 40-66 are to a deeper
understanding of salvation.
The Law of Moses for reconciliation and "drawing near" to God.
The prophets for providing "God commentary" on human behavior.
Anchored to the "beginnings" of our faith, found in Genesis.
Of course, "all scripture is profitable...for instruction in righteousness".
I admire your dedication to the body of Christ, and the thorough presentation
of the basis for your understanding, and I am in no way trying to denigrate
what you have been presenting here.
We are on different paths to the same goal, to ascend.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0