A few questions for Protestants

[Valletta]

not forgiveness unto salvation, only Jesus can do that

God can work through people and even objects. Remember Matthew 18:

"Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven,
and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

 

[timothyu]

God can work through people and even objects.

Indeed. He forwarded truth in scriptures until they once again saw the light of day, through a rebellious gentile institution.

 

[Valletta]

Indeed. He forwarded truth in scriptures until they once again saw the light of day, through a rebellious gentile institution.

The Holy Spirit was clearly at work when the Catholic Church, in a process that spanned centuries, chose the 73 books of the Bible and gave the world the Bible in the late 300s. So too over the centuries as Catholic monks labored to copy Sacred Scripture, preserved it, and preach the Gospel to the people. Remember for so many centuries they copied the Bible by hand, yet also so many times took the time to translate the Bible into many common languages. We all owe those Catholic monks a great debt. No Catholic Church--no Bible.

 

[timothyu]

gave the world the Bible in the late 300s

And then hid it from the people for a thousand years. But yes we owe those who copied it. As i said God uses even His enemies and as a result we ALL have access today, not just those seeking to control the power of them.

 

[renniks]

In which Church or individual is found "all truth" that comes from the Holy Spirit (John 16:13)?

In genuine believers. He was talking to the disciples, that's all who follow Jesus.

 

[renniks]

What is "the truth"? Your interpretation of the Bible?

According to your quote it's in people who have the Holy Spirit.
Not the ones who have the most ornate churches.

 

[Albion]

The Holy Spirit was clearly at work when the Catholic Church, in a process that spanned centuries, chose the 73 books of the Bible and gave the world the Bible in the late 300s.

You say this all the time, it seems, but the fact is that the church of that era was not divided East and West as it later came to be, so it is impossible to credit just one of today's denominations with having created the Bible all by itself.

 

[Valletta]

According to your quote it's in people who have the Holy Spirit.
Not the ones who have the most ornate churches.

Yes, not necessarily the ones who have the most ornate churches. It's interesting, when Constantine allowed freedom of worship Christians did not immediately build churches. They thought about it, and it was maybe ten to twenty years before they decided to make the first churches ornate on the inside and plain on the outside.

 

[Valletta]

And then hid it from the people for a thousand years. But yes we owe those who copied it. As i said God uses even His enemies and as a result we ALL have access today, not just those seeking to control the power of them.

For over a thousand years most of the populace was illiterate. And it was expensive to hand copy a Bible, there was the high cost of parchment and ink plus all of the labor. A monastery might have just one, maybe two Bibles and the Catholic monks would have to memorize long passages before going out and bringing the Gospel to the people.
Before a Catholic named Gutenberg used the printing press (and the first book he printed, naturally, was the Bible) it wasn't a situation where anyone but the extremely wealthy could afford to purchase a Bible. And as I said, most people could not read and write anyways, despite Catholic attempts to educate the masses.
People spent a lot of time just making a living. They relied on the monasteries not just for the Word of God, but for food. When the Protestants seized the monasteries and gave the land to the wealthy the people suffered. In England for example, Catholics fled to France where they published the Douay Rheims Bible in English, but they faced a horrible fate for getting caught sneaking Bibles back into England.

 

[Valletta]

You say this all the time, it seems, but the fact is that the church of that era was not divided East and West as it later came to be, so it is impossible to credit just one of today's denominations with having created the Bible all by itself.

No denomination created the Bible all by itself.

 

[Fidelibus]

And then hid it from the people for a thousand years.

This is nothing more than a Protestant Anti-Catholic fallacious myth. Or better yet, a bald face lie! If you were to actually do some early Christian Church history research, you may think twice about spreading this fallacy. Now, did the Catholic Churches chain the Bible to a podium in the church? You bet they did, but not to keep it away from the people, quite the opposite, in fact.

Today if you want a copy of the Bible you can go to the nearest bookstore and buy a copy. If you have a smartphone, there are a variety of free apps that will let you read a variety of translations. That was not always the case, however. Prior to the invention of the printing press, Bibles had to be copied by hand. (Those who make these attacks never bother to explain why the monks would spend their lives making these copies if the church wanted to keep them out of people’s hands.)

Not only that, but history would also tell you that the literacy rate was very low. There have been estimates from scholars that the Jews in Jesus’ days had a literacy rate as low as 2-3 percent, but others estimate as high as 7%. Very likely, Jewish literacy rates were higher than Greek and Roman societies because of training in their synagogues. In Western Europe during the Middle Ages literacy decreased, probably to under 1%.

Hand-copied Bibles were hard to come by and very expensive. A typical Bible cost what the average person could make in a year and a half. This would make them targets for thieves. The churches chained them to podiums to prevent theft and to make sure they were available for reading, not to prevent them from being read.

But yes, we owe those who copied it.

Yes, that would be the many Catholic Monks to whom we owe our gratitude. For monks working in the scriptoriums of Benedictine monasteries in the Middle Ages was not easy. It took nearly a year to copy a Bible manuscript. The process was laborious and wearisome; as one monk recorded, “He who does not know how to write imagines it to be no labor; but though three fingers only hold the pen, the whole body goes weary.”

As i said God uses even His enemies and as a result we ALL have access today, not just those seeking to control the power of them.

So now you are saying that these monks that devoted their lives to God, laboriously recording God's word as mere enemies of God? Wow!! I sure wouldn't want to be you trying to explain that to God about His faithful servants when your time comes!

Have a Blessed day!

 

[timothyu]

So now you are saying that these monks that devoted their lives to God, laboriously recording God's word as mere enemies of God? Wow!!

I talk of who they were in service to, the Institution.

 

[Fidelibus]

I talk of who they were in service to, the Institution.

Hey, I'm not the one you need to convince for what you said, that conversation is going to be between you and God when your time comes. I truely hope you have a change of heart before that time comes..

 

[timothyu]

I truely hope you have a change of heart before that time comes..

Nope! I'm Gospel of His Kingdom (not the Adversary's kingdoms) all the way.

 

[Fidelibus]

Nope! I'm Gospel of His Kingdom all the way.

Again, you're trying to convince the wrong person.

All I can say is, don't wait until it's to late!

 

[timothyu]

Again, you're trying to convince the wrong person.

Sorry, not trying to convince anybody. Just forwarding His Gospel in the proper light, His... not man's.

 

[Fidelibus]

Sorry, not trying to convince anybody. Just forwarding His Gospel in the proper light, His... not man's.

Now it sounds like you are trying to convince yourself.

Good luck with that!

I will pray for you though.

Have a Blessed Evening.

 

[Fidelibus]

Since this is a thread for non-Protestants to question Protestants about their beliefs and teachings of Protestantism, be it from whatever denomination, non-denomination, church, or sect it may be. In doing so, I'd like to rehash a post I directed to a few of our prominent Protestant posters. Those being Albion, timothyu, YeshuaFan, and pescador.

I am referring to my post on Page 37, post # 739 where I, as a non-Protestant took notice of the four of you Protestant, Bible alone believing (sola scriptura adherents) obviously in disagreement regarding certain bible passages. The passages being, Matt. 16:19, 1 Tim. 3:15, and the true meaning of the term "The Way" as mentioned in scripture. These disagreements of yours I speak of can be found in pages 35-37 of this very thread.

In this post, I asked some questions, not exactly sure how many, maybe 7, 8, 10 questions. I will go ahead and repost the entire post here in quotations for you to refer too if you'd like.

It has been quite interesting following some of our Protestant posters conversing here as of late on the past few pages of this thread regarding Matt 16:19, (" I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.( "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”) and 1 Tim. 3:15, (But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.) What is the true meaning of "the Way" etc.

-What I find interesting is that these posters are self-proclaimed sola scripturists, but cannot seem to agree on the meanings or interpretations of these passages. Now I could understand the Catholic/Protestant different understanding/ interpretation of these passages but Protestants disagreeing with Protestants on these passages? I find this very interesting!

-So, being this is a thread about asking Protestant/non-denominationally believers questions, I'd like to ask these posters to please explain to us why? Why, if you are studying, learning believing from the same bible, are you have such different interpretations and beliefs in these scripture passages?

-When you all study, read, and learn from the bible, are you not doing so under the guidance of the Holy Spirit? When you all post your interpretations, beliefs, and understandings of scripture, is it your belief you are doing so under the guidance and truth from the Holy Spirit? Now, I am sure you all would agree there is no way the Holy Spirit would teach you error, right? Well, there is only one truth.

-So, which one of you has the truth, and which of you do not? Is it you that has the truth Albion? Or is it you timothyu that has the truth? Hmm.... maybe its you pescador that has the truth? Could it be YeshuaFan has the truth? If you all can't agree, you all cannot be correct in your understanding, belief, and interpretation.

-So.....the big question is to you all, if you can't agree which one of you is correct, and the others are not, to whom or what can you turn to make that decision? One thing for sure, it cannot be the bible because that is what you are disagreeing about! Quite the conundrum I must say!

I will post some of the key questions separately, but in the same order found in the original post. (With minor edits for space saving) Those questions being:

1. Why, if you are studying, learning believing from the same bible, are you have such different interpretations and beliefs in these scripture passages?

2. When you all study, read, and learn from the bible, are you not doing so under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

3. When you all post your interpretations, beliefs, and understandings of scripture, is it your belief you are doing so under the guidance and truth from the Holy Spirit?

4. Would you all would agree there is no way the Holy Spirit would teach you error, there is only one truth?

5. Which one of you has the truth, and which of you do not?

6. Is it you that has the truth Albion? Or is it you timothyu that has the truth? Hmm.... maybe it's you pescador that has the truth? Could it be YeshuaFan has the truth?

7. So.....the big question to you all is..... if you can't agree which one of you is correct, and the others are not, to whom or what can you turn to make that decision?

However, I will say that our friend Albion tried to respond with a weak attempt, but never did answer any of the questions I listed above. This can be seen in posts # 805,807, and 815 for confirmation. It would be my appreciation if the rest of you were to show more sand by answering these questions. Something the poster mentioned seems to lack.

Thank you in advance!

 

[Buzzard3]

I gave four

My questions was: "Which Scripture says the Church's structure must not resemble any earthly government?"

You gave me four Scriptures, so let's go through them one by one and see if any of them say what you claim they say ... that the Church's structure must not resemble that of any earthly government:

1.
"Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God."

Nope ... not a word there about what the structure of the Church should or should not look like.

2.
"James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

Nope ... not a word there about what the structure of the Church should or should not look like.

3.
"Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

What does "be not conformed to this world" mean? Jesus said “give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" (Mark 12:17), didn't he?
So once again: Nope ... not a word there about what the structure of the Church should or should not look like.

4.
"James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

What does "a friend of the world" mean? If you pay your taxes and keep the road rules, does that mean you are "a friend of the world"?

So ... Nope ... not a word there about what the structure of the Church should or should not look like.

In other words, none of these Scriptures say what you claim they say. You are yet to answer my question by providing a Scripture that says the Church's structure must not resemble any earthly government.

 

[Buzzard3]

Yes , he was the only one who in answering His question, spoke truth from God while the rest parroted as is typical, what other man had said.

Your answer makes no grammatical sense. Jesus directly addressed Peter in Matt 26:18 for a reason ... that reason is contained in v.18 or 19, or both.