Did you really choose God…

[disciple Clint]

As I’m sure you know, there are varying exegeses of those verses. But that’s tangential to my main point. Which is that if God exists, and is truly the absolute, apex universal sovereign, then nothing can happen that’s not in accord with his grand plan for all of our lives and for the universe as a whole. And those plans would, of necessity, include who is a believer and who is not. So if one never comes to believe in God, the logical conclusion is that God intended it that way.

Not at all, God gives everyone the opportunity to become a believe, He extends his grace to all, the final decision is up to the individual, that makes each one of us responsible for our ultimate fate.

 

[SamInNi]

or did God choose you? I’ve read a lot of posts where believers say they became Christians after having a life-changing spiritual experience of some sort. If that’s true, then becoming a Christian wasn’t really your choice. It was an act of God. By logical extension, it raises the question does anyone make a free-will decision to be a Christian? If you were born into a Christian family, raised in the church, and have been a believer your entire life, then that was also an act of God. The same would be true if you were a Christian at one time, and now have a different faith, or have become an atheist. If a deity exists, who is the ultimate universal sovereign with a plan for everyone and everything, then logically, no one’s belief—or lack thereof—is her/his own decision. It’s all God’s will.

In my experience most atheists who get involved in religious or ‘Christian’ forums should do a much better job of familiarising themselves with the fullness of Scripture teaching. These are the ancient source documents that thoroughly define the essential Christian faith.

People are drawn to Christ by God. Faith comes by hearing Christ’s Word. Those who respond in faith (genuine believers live by faith) have been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Not all those who are drawn to Christ will respond in saving faith. For various reasons many walk away after hearing the Truth.

True faith in Christ results in a spiritual regeneration that has nothing to do with external contexts such as being born into a Christian family or being raised in a particular church.

Applying pure logic to faith is neither logical nor reasonable. It’s fumbling in the dark with the wrong key.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

or did God choose you? I’ve read a lot of posts where believers say they became Christians after having a life-changing spiritual experience of some sort. If that’s true, then becoming a Christian wasn’t really your choice. It was an act of God. By logical extension, it raises the question does anyone make a free-will decision to be a Christian? If you were born into a Christian family, raised in the church, and have been a believer your entire life, then that was also an act of God. The same would be true if you were a Christian at one time, and now have a different faith, or have become an atheist. If a deity exists, who is the ultimate universal sovereign with a plan for everyone and everything, then logically, no one’s belief—or lack thereof—is her/his own decision. It’s all God’s will.

I'm not actually seeing the logic in this, Jayem. As far as I can tell, it seems to be a non-sequitur. It doesn't really follow that just because a few religious [Christian] folks here and there express that they've had some kind of superlative religious experience(s), their respective experiences somehow then become the modus operandi for the rest of us and the exclusive mode by which anyone else should recognize that he or she has become a Christian.

No, I think there's other ways in which people become Christian, some of those ways are rational and some are irrational. And the way in which we conceive of God's sovereignty might also depend on the way we interpret our holy books and by which writings we give prominence to in our thinking, and these being the conduits through which we draw our individual ideas about some thing called 'God's Sovereignty.'

So, no, I'm sorry. I think there's not only more to this thing that Christians called 'sovereignty' but also that certain aspects about its nature aren't available to us by which we would wish to order a comprehensive understanding about it. If anything, it remains in a dim, mysterious light of human interpretation and that dimness precludes our having definitive comprehensions about it.

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm not actually seeing the logic in this, Jayem. As far as I can tell, it seems to be a non-sequitur. It doesn't really follow that just because a few religious [Christian] folks here and there express that they've had some kind of superlative religious experience(s), their respective experiences somehow then become the modus operandi for the rest of us and the exclusive mode by which anyone else should recognize that he or she has become a Christian.

No, I think there's other ways in which people become Christian, some of those ways are rational and some are irrational. And the way in which we conceive of God's sovereignty might also depend on the way we interpret our holy books and by which writings we give prominence to in our thinking, and these being the conduits through which we draw our individual ideas about some thing called 'God's Sovereignty.'

So, no, I'm sorry. I think there's not only more to this thing that Christians called 'sovereignty' but also that certain aspects about its nature aren't available to us by which we can order a comprehensive understanding about it. If anything, it remains in a dim, mysterious light of human interpretation and that dimness precludes our having definitive comprehensions about it.

To me any kind of "God/god" being "sovereign" means that they always have always fully known "all" always, and there was never ever ever a time they did not know absolutely everything or "all" always, etc, and because of this, and because of the universe being deterministic from the beginning from that One's standpoint or perspective or point of view, etc, then there has technically never ever been such a thing as "free will" at all ever for any other being not Him from that time or point onward ever at all always, etc...

And it is my "belief" that this is, or has always been, God the Father always, but not necessarily always God the Spirit, or God the Son always, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

To me any kind of "God/god" being "sovereign" means that they always have always fully known "all" always, and there was never ever ever a time they did not know absolutely everything or "all" always, etc, and because of this, and because of the universe being deterministic from the beginning from that One's standpoint or perspective or point of view, etc, then there has technically never ever been such a thing as "free will" at all ever for any other being not Him from that time or point onward ever at all always, etc...

And it is my "belief" that this is, or has always been, God the Father always, but not necessarily always God the Spirit, or God the Son always, etc...

God Bless!

@2PhiloVoid
@jayem

It seems to be so very much easier for you guys to understand my explaining this than much of the much more "religious" crowd, etc...?

Still trying to figure out just exactly "why" that is though...?

God Bless!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

To me any kind of "God/god" being "sovereign" means that they always have always fully known "all" always, and there was never ever ever a time they did not know absolutely everything or "all" always, etc, and because of this, and because of the universe being deterministic from the beginning from that One's standpoint or perspective or point of view, etc, then there has technically never ever been such a thing as "free will" at all ever for any other being not Him from that time or point onward ever at all always, etc...

And it is my "belief" that this is, or has always been, God the Father always, but not necessarily always God the Spirit, or God the Son always, etc...

God Bless!

Ok. You could be right, but notice too that I was disagreeing with Jayem rather than agreeing with him.

 

[jayem]

No, I think there's other ways in which people become Christian, some of those ways are rational and some are irrational. And the way in which we conceive of God's sovereignty might also depend on the way we interpret our holy books and by which writings we give prominence to in our thinking, and these being the conduits through which we draw our individual ideas about some thing called 'God's Sovereignty.'

I don’t disagree that people become Christians in various ways. (Gotta say that I’m intrigued by what would be an irrational way to be a believer.) But that doesn’t answer the question: Is it totally impossible that accepting Christianity was not your free-will choice, but was actually God directing your mind subconsciously? How would you even know?

So, no, I'm sorry. I think there's not only more to this thing that Christians called 'sovereignty' but also that certain aspects about its nature aren't available to us by which we can order a comprehensive understanding about it. If anything, it remains in a dim, mysterious light of human interpretation and that dimness precludes our having definitive comprehensions about it.

I suspect we can agree that ultimately, Christian belief (and all religious belief) comes down to faith. I won’t argue with faith. In multiple places, the Bible says faith is a gift. If that’s true, then I haven’t been given that gift. In my entire life, I’ve never connected with any religion. As my avatar notes, I’m a naturalist. I believe everything in this universe is purely a function of matter/energy and the fundamental forces of nature. Anything claimed to be supernatural is a product of the human imagination. That’s my variety of faith. Honestly, I don’t reject supernatural thinking out of any animus towards religion. I dismiss it because it’s incomprehensible to me. My brain just isn’t wired to process it. (If there is a God, that’s how he made me.) How would it please God if I said I accept him when I really have overwhelming doubts? Wouldn’t God know I’m lying?

As I see, if there is a sovereign God, who’s will is that I become a Christian, then events will be arranged so that it happens. And if it doesn’t happen, then either there isn’t a God who’s sovereign in all things, or my belief was never meant to be. To me, that’s logical.

 

[Neogaia777]

I don’t disagree that people become Christians in various ways. (Gotta say that I’m intrigued by what would be an irrational way to be a believer.) But that doesn’t answer the question: Is it totally impossible that accepting Christianity was not your free-will choice, but was actually God directing your mind subconsciously? How would you even know?



I suspect we can agree that ultimately, Christian belief (and all religious belief) comes down to faith. I won’t argue with faith. In multiple places, the Bible says faith is a gift. If that’s true, then I haven’t been given that gift. In my entire life, I’ve never connected with any religion. As my avatar notes, I’m a naturalist. I believe everything in this universe is purely a function of matter/energy and the fundamental forces of nature. Anything claimed to be supernatural is a product of the human imagination. That’s my variety of faith. Honestly, I don’t reject supernatural thinking out of any animus towards religion. I dismiss it because it’s incomprehensible to me. My brain just isn’t wired to process it. (If there is a God, that’s how he made me.) How would it please God if I said I accept him when I really have overwhelming doubts? Wouldn’t God know I’m lying?

As I see, if there is a sovereign God, who’s will is that I become a Christian, then events will be arranged so that it happens. And if it doesn’t happen, then either there isn’t a God who’s sovereign in all things, or my belief was never meant to be. To me, that’s logical.

What are you doing on a "Christian Forum" then...?

Care to logically explain that one maybe...?

Because I think I've "got you" there, etc...

Because there is only "so many reasons" that a person who claims to not believe, or not even be interested, would even be on one now, isn't there...

I think I've got you there... unless you care to "logically explain" maybe, etc...?

You "put yourself around them", or "in the area", or arena, "on purpose", etc...

So, what is that "purpose", etc...?

And is it being directed, or dictated, by just "you" and "your own will only", etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

@jayem

You can't play "so innocent" with me, etc, because there is a reason why your here, or are on here, specifically, etc...

Care to be "really honest" and tell us what that "actually is", etc...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

@jayem

Your "curious", aren't you...?

And you've always been "curious", haven't you...?

But people in religious circles have always "turned you off", and their faith and/or religions and/or holy books, make "no (logical) sense" to you, and it has pretty much always been that for you, etc, hasn't it, etc...?

So, am I getting anywhere "close to the mark" at all, etc...?

Want to "talk", etc...?

We can PM each other if you like, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

@jayem

Or maybe, like perhaps so many others on here, you will perhaps simply say that you've just never seen any "evidence", etc, or that you've never experienced the "supernatural", etc, so you refuse to believe in it until you do, and do personally in your own life, etc...

But, I think your here because you at least "want to" at least, etc...

But, you tell me, am I getting "anywhere close to right", etc...?

Because if you at least "want to", then maybe you are "waiting on it", or are maybe even perhaps "hoping for it" maybe, etc...

And that is still "faith", etc...

And that is, in fact, the "very definition of it", etc...

So, you might be a "believer" and not even know it, etc...

At least "in your heart" anyway, since all it takes is a "heart of faith", etc...

If it waits, if it hopes, if it wants to or secretly wishes for it, it is a heart of faith, etc...

PM me if you like...

God Bless!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don’t disagree that people become Christians in various ways. (Gotta say that I’m intrigued by what would be an irrational way to be a believer.) But that doesn’t answer the question: Is it totally impossible that accepting Christianity was not your free-will choice, but was actually God directing your mind subconsciously? How would you even know?

Some of my response to your points here, if I was to offer it, would be more or less the same one I gave you a while back where we briefly discussed Pascal. Do you remember any of that? (If not, that's ok. We've both slept since then).

Anyway, in my effort to keep this as brief as possible, I'll just say that I think an "irrational" way to be a Christian believer is to be one who affirms the contents of the Bible in an utterly fundamantal way such that the substance of the affirmations are drawn primarily from one's emotions rather than any other form of consideration.

By contrast, being "rational" within the bounds of Christianity would then become a human act on a sliding scale of analytic quality, with those persons who are more reflective, thoughtful, studious and willing to appeal to various forms of academic research--and thus analyzing relevant data via various logics--making up the cadre of believers who take the more rationalistic approach (...but with all things considered, of course ... )

With the above, then, the whole idea and application of "God's Sovereigntly" can be metted out in a more analyzed and scaled way rather than just throwing it out there as if the idea explains itself and somehow denudes the complimentary idea of "human volition" of any substance or applicable meaning.

As for your questions, it is possible that God directed my mind subsconciously to follow Him, but even if that is the case I don't 'know' that He did and the only tell-tale token of that idea is found in the words of the Bible, such as those of Jesus in John 15:16 where He says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you..."

But even with this being the case, again, I don't know how God does it or if He needs to do so in a totalistic kind of way (being that His power is great, it might not take very much power from Him to draw me, right?). And if He doesn't draw a person in a totalistic way with a kind of totalism such as Calvin would aver for, can I infer that there is still the possibility remaining that this allowance offers me, however minimally, some leeway for making my own authentic decisions about whatever attraction I develop toward Jesus as a figure for my own religious reverence?

Moreover, I'm an Existentialist with my own view on epistemology, so being as such, I assume my freedom exists even if somehow it is secretly being curtailed by God Almighty.

So yeah, great question Jayem: "How would you even know?"

I suspect we can agree that ultimately, Christian belief (and all religious belief) comes down to faith. I won’t argue with faith. In multiple places, the Bible says faith is a gift. If that’s true, then I haven’t been given that gift.

....mmmm. Maybe. But I operate with a different definition of faith than do my more Fundamentalist or Charismatic leaning brethren. Personally, I take faith to be defined as a "whole person, operative response to whatever cognitive and/or conceptual traces we find as given in Reality around us" (however little they may historically or metaphysically seem to be). I don't work with a definition of faith as being some kind of 'blind and purely emotional' state of mind by which full religious affirmation is made. For me, faith is at least partially an aspect of rational capacities, not a response to God despite them.

In my entire life, I’ve never connected with any religion. As my avatar notes, I’m a naturalist.

ok. And similarly, never in my life have I experienced anything that I would cite as truly supernatural. I began with the natural (ala Carl Sagan and such) and explore our world (and religion) through this philosophically ...

I believe everything in this universe is purely a function of matter/energy and the fundamental forces of nature.

I more or less tend to think within similar patterns, but without the sense of absoluteness that you [may] have about it. By corollary, my view on issues of Determinism will fall short of being absolute or decisive either.

Anything claimed to be supernatural is a product of the human imagination. That’s my variety of faith. Honestly, I don’t reject supernatural thinking out of any animus towards religion. I dismiss it because it’s incomprehensible to me. My brain just isn’t wired to process it. (If there is a God, that’s how he made me.) How would it please God if I said I accept him when I really have overwhelming doubts? Wouldn’t God know I’m lying?

Maybe. It could be the case, and since I don't know the extent of your philosophical and conceptual exploration about Christian epistemic issues and/or theology, and since I'm an existentialist, I can say I fully empathize with your mindset. However, at the same time, I'm under the impression that no one human individual knows everything ... call this my Non-Foundationalist Axiom, however oxy-moronic it may sound.

As I see, if there is a sovereign God, who’s will is that I become a Christian, then events will be arranged so that it happens. And if it doesn’t happen, then either there isn’t a God who’s sovereign in all things, or my belief was never meant to be. To me, that’s logical.

Well, this seems logical to you, but I think it's a false dichotomy since, either way, "How would you even know?"

 

[Neogaia777]

@jayem

And, in fact, you might even have more "faith" even right now, then maybe even someone like me, since I had my beliefs proven to me, and it was not a choice of my own making or deciding, etc, and I can explain the "logic" of it, but in the end, it might still require to to exercise you faith maybe, etc, unless it gets absolutely proven to you like it was to or for me, etc...

PM me anytime you might like if you want, etc...

God Bless!

 

[ViaCrucis]

or did God choose you? I’ve read a lot of posts where believers say they became Christians after having a life-changing spiritual experience of some sort. If that’s true, then becoming a Christian wasn’t really your choice. It was an act of God. By logical extension, it raises the question does anyone make a free-will decision to be a Christian? If you were born into a Christian family, raised in the church, and have been a believer your entire life, then that was also an act of God. The same would be true if you were a Christian at one time, and now have a different faith, or have become an atheist. If a deity exists, who is the ultimate universal sovereign with a plan for everyone and everything, then logically, no one’s belief—or lack thereof—is her/his own decision. It’s all God’s will.

As a Lutheran I am firmly in the I didn't choose Him, He chose me camp. But also as a Lutheran I fully reject the idea that God picks and chooses who is and isn't saved.

I can assure you that had I simply retained my childhood version of Christianity that I was raised with, I don't know that I'd still be a Christian.

God's will is not encoded in fatalistic outcomes for people and things; but is found in the love He has poured forth in Christ for the world, as grace through the Gospel.

Edited to add: I'm also not seeing how it logically flows that because some Christians are born into Christian homes that somehow this is the product of a divine fatalistic outcome.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[jayem]

What are you doing on a "Christian Forum" then...?

Care to logically explain that one maybe...?

Because I think I've "got you" there, etc...

Because there is only "so many reasons" that a person who claims to not believe, or not even be interested, would even be on one now, isn't there...

I think I've got you there... unless you care to "logically explain" maybe, etc...?

You "put yourself around them", or "in the area", or arena, "on purpose", etc...

So, what is that "purpose", etc...?

And is it being directed, or dictated, by just "you" and "your own will only", etc...

God Bless!

There shouldn’t be any mystery. I enjoy intellectual discourse. It’s fun. It’s great brain exercise to formulate a position and support it with reason, logic, and references (where appropriate.) And it improves your writing and language skills to express yourself clearly and succinctly. My biggest gripe about internet message boards are posts that are confusingly worded with incorrect syntax, misspellings, poor sentence structure, and improper punctuation. They’re typically unintelligible. Also, I have no desire or expectation to convert anyone to my way of thinking. I just state my opinion.

And BTW, I don’t only post on CF. I’ve been on an Internet Infidels site longer than I’ve been on CF. But it’s less fun when most users agree with you.

 

[Neogaia777]

There shouldn’t be any mystery. I enjoy intellectual discourse. It’s fun. It’s great brain exercise to formulate a position and support it with reason, logic, and references (where appropriate.) And it improves your writing and language skills to express yourself clearly and succinctly. My biggest gripe about internet message boards are posts that are confusingly worded with incorrect syntax, misspellings, poor sentence structure, and improper punctuation. They’re typically unintelligible. Also, I have no desire or expectation to convert anyone to my way of thinking. I just state my opinion.

And BTW, I don’t only post on CF. I’ve been on an Internet Infidels site longer than I’ve been on CF. But it’s less fun when most users agree with you.

So you come on here to argue with Christians?

Again, "why"...?

Because I still don't think you are being 100% totally honest, etc...?

Because I think your still "curious", etc...

Or you are just a really, really, really "bad person", which I don't 100% fully believe either, etc...

If you just wanted to argue, and/or sharpen your skills, or your mental abilities/capabilities, there are other places you can do that, but you came on here/do come on here, etc, specifically, for a very specific "reason", etc...

A reason that I still don't think your being 100% totally honest about, etc...

I still love ya though...

God Bless!

 

[jayem]

So you come on here to argue with Christians?

Again, "why"...?

Because I still don't think you are being 100% totally honest, etc...?

Because I think your still "curious", etc...

Or you are just a really, really, really "bad person", which I don't 100% fully believe either, etc...

If you just wanted to argue, and/or sharpen your skills, or your mental abilities/capabilities, there are other places you can do that, but you came on here/do come on here, etc, specifically, for a very specific "reason", etc...

A reason that I still don't think your being 100% totally honest about, etc...

I still love ya though...

God Bless!

I'm being completely truthful. I've been interested in religion for some time. But from an academic standpoint. I was a psychology major, and pre-med in college. Religion is an important motivator of human behavior and I did some elective study in religion to learn more about it. After med school, I considered training in neurology. But back in the late 70s, about the only conditions that could be treated with any effectiveness were migraines, epilepsy, bacterial meningitis, and brain tumors if diagnosed early enough for surgical removal. So I went with internal medicine.

Not to get off topic, but here's the 100% total truth about how I found CF. It was recommended to me by a minister. Working in health care, I became interested medical ethics. For about 10 years, I was a member of my hospital's ethics committee. One of our co-chairmen was the head of Pastoral Services, and an ordained UMC minister. Pastor Art and I became buddies. Even though he was a Methodist minister, and I was a non-theist, we agreed on the ethical aspects of practically all the cases our committee was asked to review. Art suggested I check out the E & M subforum on CF. I found very few threads specifically on medical ethics. But I enjoyed the discussions in the current events, politics, science, and religion subforums. So I've hung around. Sadly, Art died some years ago. But this shows that a minister and an atheist can still work together and be good buddies.

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm being completely truthful. I've been interested in religion for some time. But from an academic standpoint. I was a psychology major, and pre-med in college. Religion is an important motivator of human behavior and I did some elective study in religion to learn more about it. After med school, I considered training in neurology. But back in the late 70s, about the only conditions that could be treated with any effectiveness were migraines, epilepsy, bacterial meningitis, and brain tumors if diagnosed early enough for surgical removal. So I went with internal medicine.

Not to get off topic, but here's the 100% total truth about how I found CF. It was recommended to me by a minister. Working in health care, I became interested medical ethics. For about 10 years, I was a member of my hospital's ethics committee. One of our co-chairmen was the head of Pastoral Services, and an ordained UMC minister. Pastor Art and I became buddies. Even though he was a Methodist minister, and I was a non-theist, we agreed on the ethical aspects of practically all the cases our committee was asked to review. Art suggested I check out the E & M subforum on CF. I found very few threads specifically on medical ethics. But I enjoyed the discussions in the current events, politics, science, and religion subforums. So I've hung around. Sadly, Art died some years ago. But this shows that a minister and an atheist can still work together and be good buddies.

So, your here to learn more about how certain individual's (or collective) religious beliefs, or beliefs in a "God/god", affect or motivate (or change) human behavior...?

Well, I would be very much interested, from and academic standpoint, to hear what you have learned so far...?

Care to share a little bit maybe, etc...?

And I am being totally serious, and not sarcastic, etc, OK...

I'd really like to hear your thoughts on the matter, being a psychology major and all, etc...?

And I am very glad you and some religious folks were able to get along so well, and I'm sorry you lost your friend, etc...

You are probably one of the more rare ones though, especially on here, etc, as I think I covered about 99% of the others in my prior posts, etc...

Sorry for my assuming, etc, and thank you for being honest with me, etc...

Peace.

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

@jayem

I always "wanted to believe", but that was not ever made 100% solid until I had some "experiences" (that I still experience) (though not as frequently now) that "shook me to the core" basically, and that were pretty much 100% undeniable to me, and still are, etc...

"Full omniscience" was "proven" to me beyond any kind of any of my natural ability to ever reasonably doubt anymore now, etc...

And I've been exploring and learning about those instances or that belief ever since, etc...

"Coincidence" is way, way to mild a word to even begin to describe it, etc...

And I've seen and experienced "providence" more times than I can number or ever count, etc...

God clearly wanted me to absolutely know beyond any kind of doubt, His ability to "arrange" and "connect" things, etc, even with just only what I was thinking about, or am thinking about at the time, etc, as it has been "manifested" a whole heck of a lot, sometimes multiple times in a second, or second by second, etc, in the environment outside of me or the world around me, etc, wanted me to know that He knew, like my very thoughts and stuff, by causing it, or already having already pre-arranged it, to "happen", in the outside world around me, etc, and wanted me to know He could easily do all of that, and that He was/is "always there", etc...

Some of it could only have been due to a vast amount of "foreknowledge", or only by "predestining" or "prearranging", etc...

Scary stuff at first, due to how much it was happening, and it is still "too much" a lot of the time sometimes even now, etc...

Anyway, I would most definitely deem it "supernatural", etc...

And it has greatly affected and influenced my behavior, etc...

Don't know if you wanted to know all of that, but, "there it is", etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Besides things happening around me, I can also just be observing things sometimes, and God will be speaking to me in my mind sometimes also, etc...

Started telling me how He did all of that, or how He does "this or that", etc, and how He (already) knew, etc, and teaching me about it, etc, in my mind, etc, along with many other lessons and things, about things, etc...

Nobody else knew or knows, I don't think anyway, but He has clearly let me know that He "always does", etc...

Trying to make it so I maybe "always have Him in mind", or always have Him on my mind I guess, but it's not easy, etc, I still get lost and lose sight of Him a lot of the time, especially when there is just so much "distraction" around, etc, but He's patient with me, and is still working with me, etc...

The human mind, can only handle or take "so much", etc, or can only handle or take or "retain", "so much" "at a time" sometimes also, etc, and sometimes I guess I still feel like it's still "too much" sometimes, etc...

God Bless!