Lazarus & the rich man (Luke 16:19-31) -- reality or fiction? (cultural/historical analysis)

[TruthSeek3r]

Luke 16:19-31 (ESV):

19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”​

The setting / backdrop of the Parable includes the following elements:

• Hades / Sheol.
• Some notion of immediate judgement right after death (probably distinct from the final judgement on Judgement Day?)
• Angels carrying the spirits of dead people to Hades / Sheol.
• Two compartments: one for the righteous and one for the wicked.
• A chasm separating the two compartments.
• The presence of Abraham in the compartment for the righteous.
• The capacity of disembodied spirits to be conscious, think and speak.
• The experience of comfort in the compartment for the righteous.
• The experience of torment ("anguish in this flame") in the compartment for the wicked.
• The belief in the possibility of the resurrection of the dead.
• And any other relevant elements I may have overlooked.

Question: What is the ultimate origin of each element present in the setting of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

• Was everything grounded in reality because Jesus was recounting a real incident that actually happened?
• Were these original ideas that Jesus came up with at that moment?
• Were these beliefs that were widely held by the Jewish culture at the time?
• Were these well-established doctrines according to the Rabbis at the time?
• Were these ideas understood to be supported by contemporary sacred scriptures (see Hebrew Bible)? In other words, can we find evidence supporting any of these ideas in the Old Testament?
• Were these ideas imported from pagan cultures? If so, which cultures? Can we trace back the first sources?

Note that we can approach this discussion from an authorial intent perspective as well:

• What was Jesus' purpose in telling this parable?
• What about the setting/backdrop of Jesus' other parables? Are Jesus' parables usually grounded in reality or set in fictitious/mythical/fantastic worlds?
• What was Luke the Evangelist's authorial intent when he decided to include the parable in his gospel? Note that Luke was the only one to include the parable. None of the other gospels includes it.
• How was the parable interpreted by Luke's earliest audience?
• How was the parable interpreted by the Early Church?
• How was the parable interpreted by the Apostolic Fathers?
• How was the parable interpreted by the Ante-Nicene Fathers?

 

[ewq1938]

For me it doesn't matter if it's a parable or a story about real people. The basics truths are still true. There is an afterlife, one that isn't very good and one that is good. Two different places separated by a distance. Certainly Hades is away from heaven.

 

[disciple Clint]

Luke 16:19-31 (ESV):

19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”​

The setting / backdrop of the Parable includes the following elements:

• Hades / Sheol.
• Some notion of immediate judgement right after death (probably distinct from the final judgement on Judgement Day?)
• Angels carrying the spirits of dead people to Hades / Sheol.
• Two compartments: one for the righteous and one for the wicked.
• A chasm separating the two compartments.
• The presence of Abraham in the compartment for the righteous.
• The capacity of disembodied spirits to be conscious, think and speak.
• The experience of comfort in the compartment for the righteous.
• The experience of torment ("anguish in this flame") in the compartment for the wicked.
• The belief in the possibility of the resurrection of the dead.
• And any other relevant elements I may have overlooked.

Question: What is the ultimate origin of each element present in the setting of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

• Was everything grounded in reality because Jesus was recounting a real incident that actually happened?
• Were these original ideas that Jesus came up with at that moment?
• Were these beliefs that were widely held by the Jewish culture at the time?
• Were these well-established doctrines according to the Rabbis at the time?
• Were these ideas understood to be supported by contemporary sacred scriptures (see Hebrew Bible)? In other words, can we find evidence supporting any of these ideas in the Old Testament?
• Were these ideas imported from pagan cultures? If so, which cultures? Can we trace back the first sources?

Note that we can approach this discussion from an authorial intent perspective as well:

• What was Jesus' purpose in telling this parable?
• What about the setting/backdrop of Jesus' other parables? Are Jesus' parables usually grounded in reality or set in fictitious/mythical/fantastic worlds?
• What was Luke the Evangelist's authorial intent when he decided to include the parable in his gospel? Note that Luke was the only one to include the parable. None of the other gospels includes it.
• How was the parable interpreted by Luke's earliest audience?
• How was the parable interpreted by the Early Church?
• How was the parable interpreted by the Apostolic Fathers?
• How was the parable interpreted by the Ante-Nicene Fathers?

it's a parable. What is a parable? | GotQuestions.org

 

[TruthSeek3r]

it's a parable. What is a parable? | GotQuestions.org

It very well could be, but again, what about the setting / backdrop of the story?

The Prodigal Son (see Luke 15) is a parable too. Does that mean that:

• Fathers do not exist?
• Sons do not exist?
• Inheritances/money do not exist?
• Far away countries do not exist?
• Riotous living does not exist?
• Famines do not exist?
• Even minor details such as employers, fields, pigs, husks, servants, bread, rings, robes, fatted calves do not exist?

Do you see what I mean? If we reason with the premise that

"parable => fictional setting" (if parable, then fictional setting),
​

then we would have to conclude that lots of things (which we know are real) are fictitious if we run this same premise against Jesus' other parables in order to remain consistent (as I did above with The Prodigal Son). Of course, this evidently leads to absurd conclusions, so by reductio ad absurdum we conclude that the premise is false.

In short, sure, I may concede for the sake of argument that Luke 16:19-31 could be a parable, but even then, that wouldn't tell us anything conclusive about the backdrop / setting of the story. In fact, that could even be used as an argument for a realistic setting / backdrop, given that all the other parables that Jesus told had realistic settings. (To be more precise, you could offer an inductive argument based on the other parables: given that all the other parables of Jesus had realistic settings, then it's likely that the story of Lazarus & the rich man had a realistic setting too.)

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Luke 16:19-31 (ESV):

19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”​

The setting / backdrop of the Parable includes the following elements:

• Hades / Sheol.
• Some notion of immediate judgement right after death (probably distinct from the final judgement on Judgement Day?)
• Angels carrying the spirits of dead people to Hades / Sheol.
• Two compartments: one for the righteous and one for the wicked.
• A chasm separating the two compartments.
• The presence of Abraham in the compartment for the righteous.
• The capacity of disembodied spirits to be conscious, think and speak.
• The experience of comfort in the compartment for the righteous.
• The experience of torment ("anguish in this flame") in the compartment for the wicked.
• The belief in the possibility of the resurrection of the dead.
• And any other relevant elements I may have overlooked.

Question: What is the ultimate origin of each element present in the setting of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

• Was everything grounded in reality because Jesus was recounting a real incident that actually happened?
• Were these original ideas that Jesus came up with at that moment?
• Were these beliefs that were widely held by the Jewish culture at the time?
• Were these well-established doctrines according to the Rabbis at the time?
• Were these ideas understood to be supported by contemporary sacred scriptures (see Hebrew Bible)? In other words, can we find evidence supporting any of these ideas in the Old Testament?
• Were these ideas imported from pagan cultures? If so, which cultures? Can we trace back the first sources?

Note that we can approach this discussion from an authorial intent perspective as well:

• What was Jesus' purpose in telling this parable?
• What about the setting/backdrop of Jesus' other parables? Are Jesus' parables usually grounded in reality or set in fictitious/mythical/fantastic worlds?
• What was Luke the Evangelist's authorial intent when he decided to include the parable in his gospel? Note that Luke was the only one to include the parable. None of the other gospels includes it.
• How was the parable interpreted by Luke's earliest audience?
• How was the parable interpreted by the Early Church?
• How was the parable interpreted by the Apostolic Fathers?
• How was the parable interpreted by the Ante-Nicene Fathers?

I personally would interpret this parable as literal, just to be on the safe side.
Give to the poor.
Blessings

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

• What was Jesus' purpose in telling this parable?
• What was Luke the Evangelist's authorial intent when he decided to include the parable in his gospel? Note that Luke was the only one to include the parable. None of the other gospels includes it.

I find these to be the most interesting questions.

 

[Rene Loup]

Either way, the point still stands, as @ewq1938 said. God doesn't care if you're an American success story or not, what did you do to love others as yourself (Ex. 20:1-17, 1 John 4:20-21, Matt. 7:12, 22:34-40, Rom. 13:8-10)? The rich man had plenty of opportunity to help Lazarus in life, only to still treat him like a servant in death (2 Cor. 9:6-15, James 2:14-26, Luke 14:1-14, Matt. 25:31-46). On the contrary, I must also admit that it's hard to accept being called 'entitled' when literally trying to find hope in Hell. That's it, game over, no continues (Luke 13:22-30, Mark 9:44-48, Matt. 25:41, Rev. 20:7-15).

15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”

~Joshua 24:15 (NIV)

We need to make that decision to either be self-sacrificing or self-serving, to give or to snatch, to love others as ourselves or love ourselves first and foremost. The decision is ours, daily (1 Cor. 13, John 3:16 vs. 2 Tim. 3, John 10:10).

 

[Major1]

Luke 16:19-31 (ESV):

19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”​

The setting / backdrop of the Parable includes the following elements:

• Hades / Sheol.
• Some notion of immediate judgement right after death (probably distinct from the final judgement on Judgement Day?)
• Angels carrying the spirits of dead people to Hades / Sheol.
• Two compartments: one for the righteous and one for the wicked.
• A chasm separating the two compartments.
• The presence of Abraham in the compartment for the righteous.
• The capacity of disembodied spirits to be conscious, think and speak.
• The experience of comfort in the compartment for the righteous.
• The experience of torment ("anguish in this flame") in the compartment for the wicked.
• The belief in the possibility of the resurrection of the dead.
• And any other relevant elements I may have overlooked.

Question: What is the ultimate origin of each element present in the setting of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

• Was everything grounded in reality because Jesus was recounting a real incident that actually happened?
• Were these original ideas that Jesus came up with at that moment?
• Were these beliefs that were widely held by the Jewish culture at the time?
• Were these well-established doctrines according to the Rabbis at the time?
• Were these ideas understood to be supported by contemporary sacred scriptures (see Hebrew Bible)? In other words, can we find evidence supporting any of these ideas in the Old Testament?
• Were these ideas imported from pagan cultures? If so, which cultures? Can we trace back the first sources?

Note that we can approach this discussion from an authorial intent perspective as well:

• What was Jesus' purpose in telling this parable?
• What about the setting/backdrop of Jesus' other parables? Are Jesus' parables usually grounded in reality or set in fictitious/mythical/fantastic worlds?
• What was Luke the Evangelist's authorial intent when he decided to include the parable in his gospel? Note that Luke was the only one to include the parable. None of the other gospels includes it.
• How was the parable interpreted by Luke's earliest audience?
• How was the parable interpreted by the Early Church?
• How was the parable interpreted by the Apostolic Fathers?
• How was the parable interpreted by the Ante-Nicene Fathers?

Your quote of Luke 16 is a real story. It is not a parable!

In an attempt to sidestep the Biblical doctrine of eternal judgment in hellfire, certain groups have resorted to watering down one of the clearest and most graphic passages of hell.

That is done by suggesting Luke 16 is merely a “parable,” figurative language rather than literal truth. They believe there was no historical rich man who actually woke up tormented in hell, and no historical beggar named Lazarus who actually woke up comforted in paradise.

Furthermore, the protest is , “A loving God would never send people to an eternal hell.”

At this point I would ask you all to stop and think. Please take the time to open your Bible and read Luke 16:19-31.

Now, was there clarity or confusion in your mind? That is, were you more confused about that topic discussed in those Scriptures, or were you enlightened? If you do not mind, please answer the following questions.

1.
What specific verses, phrases, or words, if any, would lead you to conclude that Luke 16:19-31 is figurative?

2.
What, if anything, do you think is nonliteral in the passage?

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

It' not a parable.

1) if it were, Jesus would say 'I am going to tell you a parable'

2) Jesus never names anyone in parables. But He names Lazarus, because it's real and Lazarus is His.

 

[Major1]

It' not a parable.

1) if it were, Jesus would say 'I am going to tell you a parable'

2) Jesus never names anyone in parables. But He names Lazarus, because it's real and Lazarus is His.

Agreed.

"Proper" names are not used in Parables!

May I say that the best way to understand the Bible, is the hermeneutical rule that: ---
Whenever and wherever it is possible, the words of Scripture are to be understood literally. Then and if when a statement appears to be contrary to our experience, or to known fact, or revealed truth; or seems to be at variance with the general teaching of the Scriptures, then we may reasonably expect that some figure is employed.

 

[Der Alte]

it's a parable. What is a parable? | GotQuestions.org

There are 217 types of "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible" Dr E.W. Bullinger
Figures of speech used in the Bible: : Bullinger, E. W. (Ethelbert William), 1837-1913 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The word “parable” is from the Greek word “παραβολή/parabole” which means to place or throw beside, to clarify/explain something unknown by comparing it to something known. All of the unquestioned “parables” have this comparison. Lazarus and the rich man may be some other type of figure of speech but it is not a parable.
Jesus identified 5 parables as such. Others identified 26 parables as such.
…..1. The Lazarus/rich man account does not have the grammatical structure of a parable it presents no worldly situation which was or can be likened to heaven. There was no comparison.
2. It is not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
…..None of the unquestioned parables refer to unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events. All of the unquestioned parables refer to real life type events which had happened at some time in history; e.g. a widow found lost coins, a shepherd found a lost sheep, a wayward son squandered all of his inheritance.
…..All of the unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, “a certain man,”” a certain widow,””a certain land owner,” etc. The Lazarus account names two specific people “Lazarus,” otherwise unknown, and Abraham, an actual historical person, whom the rich man refers to as “father Abraham.” If Abraham was not in the place Jesus said and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus lied.
All of the ECF who quoted/referred to the Lazarus and the rich man account considered it to be factual.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [[formerly]] bestow even the crumbs [[which fell]] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
•Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
•Tertullian IX A Treatise On The Soul Chap. VII [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
•Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
•The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
•Methodius . [A.D. 260-312] XIX he Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III. [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence. ​

 

[disciple Clint]

It very well could be, but again, what about the setting / backdrop of the story?

The Prodigal Son (see Luke 15) is a parable too. Does that mean that:

• Fathers do not exist?
• Sons do not exist?
• Inheritances/money do not exist?
• Far away countries do not exist?
• Riotous living does not exist?
• Famines do not exist?
• Even minor details such as employers, fields, pigs, husks, servants, bread, rings, robes, fatted calves do not exist?

Do you see what I mean? If we reason with the premise that

"parable => fictional setting" (if parable, then fictional setting),
​

then we would have to conclude that lots of things (which we know are real) are fictitious if we run this same premise against Jesus' other parables in order to remain consistent (as I did above with The Prodigal Son). Of course, this evidently leads to absurd conclusions, so by reductio ad absurdum we conclude that the premise is false.

In short, sure, I may concede for the sake of argument that Luke 16:19-31 could be a parable, but even then, that wouldn't tell us anything conclusive about the backdrop / setting of the story. In fact, that could even be used as an argument for a realistic setting / backdrop, given that all the other parables that Jesus told had realistic settings. (To be more precise, you could offer an inductive argument based on the other parables: given that all the other parables of Jesus had realistic settings, then it's likely that the story of Lazarus & the rich man had a realistic setting too.)

Using the same logic that you have used and looking at Alice in Wonderland which we can all, I would hope would agree is a fictional story, does that mean that there is no such thing as a rabbit, or a cat, or any of the other objects in that story. If you read the Gospels you can clearly see that Jesus tells His disciples that He uses parables when talking to the public and only explains the meaning to His disciples.
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 13:10-17 - Holman Christian Standard Bible
Why did Jesus teach in parables? | GotQuestions.org

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Using the same logic that you have used and looking at Alice in Wonderland which we can all, I would hope would agree is a fictional story, does that mean that there is no such thing as a rabbit, or a cat, or any of the other objects in that story. If you read the Gospels you can clearly see that Jesus tells His disciples that He uses parables when talking to the public and only explains the meaning to His disciples.
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 13:10-17 - Holman Christian Standard Bible
Why did Jesus teach in parables? | GotQuestions.org

• My reductive argument doesn't prove that the story is veridical or fictional, it only proves that the premise "parable => fictional setting" is false. The veracity or fictionality of each concrete story/parable would need to be established on other grounds.
• Alice in the Wonderland was not authored by Jesus, so there is a clear risk that this could be an invalid analogy. I understand the point though: a priori we can't rule out the possibility that the whole world in which the story unfolds might be fictitious, even if some elements of reality are incorporated. But then, again, I would say that you should look at all the other parables that Jesus told: were they set in mythical & fantastic places in galaxies far far away that do no exist in real life? Or were Jesus' parables set in realistic settings?

 

[disciple Clint]

There are 217 types of "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible" Dr E.W. Bullinger
Figures of speech used in the Bible: : Bullinger, E. W. (Ethelbert William), 1837-1913 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The word “parable” is from the Greek word “παραβολή/parabole” which means to place or throw beside, to clarify/explain something unknown by comparing it to something known. All of the unquestioned “parables” have this comparison. Lazarus and the rich man may be some other type of figure of speech but it is not a parable.
Jesus identified 5 parables as such. Others identified 26 parables as such.
…..1. The Lazarus/rich man account does not have the grammatical structure of a parable it presents no worldly situation which was or can be likened to heaven. There was no comparison.
2. It is not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
…..None of the unquestioned parables refer to unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events. All of the unquestioned parables refer to real life type events which had happened at some time in history; e.g. a widow found lost coins, a shepherd found a lost sheep, a wayward son squandered all of his inheritance.
…..All of the unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, “a certain man,”” a certain widow,””a certain land owner,” etc. The Lazarus account names two specific people “Lazarus,” otherwise unknown, and Abraham, an actual historical person, whom the rich man refers to as “father Abraham.” If Abraham was not in the place Jesus said and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus lied.
All of the ECF who quoted/referred to the Lazarus and the rich man account considered it to be factual.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [[formerly]] bestow even the crumbs [[which fell]] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
•Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
•Tertullian IX A Treatise On The Soul Chap. VII [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
•Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
•The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
•Methodius . [A.D. 260-312] XIX he Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III. [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence. ​

I am almost convinced that your argument is sound, nice work in your extensive research and an excellent post. Blessings

 

[disciple Clint]

• My reductive argument doesn't prove that the story is veridical or fictional, it only proves that the premise "parable => fictional setting" is false. The veracity or fictionality of each concrete story/parable would need to be established on other grounds.
• Alice in the Wonderland was not authored by Jesus, so there is a clear risk that this could be an invalid analogy. I understand the point though: a priori we can't rule out the possibility that the whole world in which the story unfolds might be fictitious, even if some elements of reality are incorporated. But then, again, I would say that you should look at all the other parables that Jesus told: were they set in mythical & fantastic places in galaxies far far away that do no exist in real life? Or were Jesus' parables set in realistic settings?

Jesus used parables was for teaching, He told simple stories that people could easily relate to and understand, the purpose was to make His point, not to comment on all possible worlds. Der Alte made an excelent argument of why the Lazarus/rich man account may be factual in his post #11

 

[Clare73]

Luke 16:19-31 (ESV):

19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”​

The setting / backdrop of the Parable includes the following elements:

• Hades / Sheol.
• Some notion of immediate judgement right after death (probably distinct from the final judgement on Judgement Day?)
• Angels carrying the spirits of dead people to Hades / Sheol.
• Two compartments: one for the righteous and one for the wicked.
• A chasm separating the two compartments.
• The presence of Abraham in the compartment for the righteous.
• The capacity of disembodied spirits to be conscious, think and speak.
• The experience of comfort in the compartment for the righteous.
• The experience of torment ("anguish in this flame") in the compartment for the wicked.
• The belief in the possibility of the resurrection of the dead.
• And any other relevant elements I may have overlooked.

Question: What is the ultimate origin of each element present in the setting of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

• Was everything grounded in reality because Jesus was recounting a real incident that actually happened?
• Were these original ideas that Jesus came up with at that moment?
• Were these beliefs that were widely held by the Jewish culture at the time?
• Were these well-established doctrines according to the Rabbis at the time?
• Were these ideas understood to be supported by contemporary sacred scriptures (see Hebrew Bible)? In other words, can we find evidence supporting any of these ideas in the Old Testament?
• Were these ideas imported from pagan cultures? If so, which cultures? Can we trace back the first sources?

Note that we can approach this discussion from an authorial intent perspective as well:

• What was Jesus' purpose in telling this parable?
• What about the setting/backdrop of Jesus' other parables? Are Jesus' parables usually grounded in reality or set in fictitious/mythical/fantastic worlds?
• What was Luke the Evangelist's authorial intent when he decided to include the parable in his gospel? Note that Luke was the only one to include the parable. None of the other gospels includes it.
• How was the parable interpreted by Luke's earliest audience?
• How was the parable interpreted by the Early Church?
• How was the parable interpreted by the Apostolic Fathers?
• How was the parable interpreted by the Ante-Nicene Fathers?

If not a parable, then a description contrasting the good and bad in this world to that of the world to come, ending with a condemnation of the Jews in the world to come for their unbelief of his claims, even when he rises from the dead to prove them.

 

[RDKirk]

It very well could be, but again, what about the setting / backdrop of the story?

The Prodigal Son (see Luke 15) is a parable too. Does that mean that:

• Fathers do not exist?
• Sons do not exist?
• Inheritances/money do not exist?
• Far away countries do not exist?
• Riotous living does not exist?
• Famines do not exist?
• Even minor details such as employers, fields, pigs, husks, servants, bread, rings, robes, fatted calves do not exist?

Do you see what I mean? If we reason with the premise that

"parable => fictional setting" (if parable, then fictional setting),​

"Fictional setting" does not imply non-existence. There is plenty of fiction written about New York City, yet New York City, indeed, exists.

Being a parable means that it should only be used for the truth it's intended to convey, and that the details are intended to support the conveyance of that particular truth. We can't make inferences about anything more than that.

Notice in that parable that only three persons are mentioned--Lazarus, the rich man, and Abraham. Can we infer that there were no other persons inhabiting those realms? Of course not. Our inferences are limited to the particular truth the parable is intended to convey.

​

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[enoob57]

For me it doesn't matter if it's a parable or a story about real people. The basics truths are still true. There is an afterlife, one that isn't very good and one that is good. Two different places separated by a distance. Certainly Hades is away from heaven.

Yes exactly… truth is truth whether parable or not! The elements within must be truth or God has lied… that will never occur!

 

[enoob57]

Using the same logic that you have used and looking at Alice in Wonderland which we can all, I would hope would agree is a fictional story, does that mean that there is no such thing as a rabbit, or a cat, or any of the other objects in that story. If you read the Gospels you can clearly see that Jesus tells His disciples that He uses parables when talking to the public and only explains the meaning to His disciples.
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 13:10-17 - Holman Christian Standard Bible
Why did Jesus teach in parables? | GotQuestions.org

This might be an argument if Alice in wonderland were in the Bible… but it is put forth as fiction in it’s begin! God does not delve in make believe and expects us not to as well
2 Corinthians 10:5 (KJV)
[5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;