Are NC Christians Lawless like Sabbath observers Claim?

[DamianWarS]

Do you know what the "shadow law" of circumcision represents and why God gave His people the sign of circumcision? Was circumcision given before sin or after sin and what was it's purpose? What about the creation Sabbath that God blessed and made a holy day for all mankind that is linked directly into the seventh day of the creation week on a continuous eternal weekly cycle? When was it made before sin or after mankind sinned and what is it's purpose? Which one, circumcision or Gods "seventh day" creation Sabbath is one of Gods' 10 commandments spoken and written by God alone on two tables of stone? Do you know why all these questions are important to the discussion? Why are you trying to compare the "shadows" with the eternal?

Take Care.

Circumcision is a sign of the everlasting covenant between Abraham and God (and his descendants) but flesh preexisted this covenant going all the way back to Adam.

The Sabbath law is a signed covenant between Israel and God. But God's rest preexisted the covenant agreement.

You may say one is better than the other but they are both prescriptive from the same thing. If it wasn't for the fall there would be no Mt. Sinai event. We have Sabbath law because of sin not inspite of it.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Signs point to something else, they are not the destination, this is inherit in the concept of a sign. The Sabbath law was the sign. It is the act of observing the Sabbath that is specifically the signed covenant. Ex 31 spells out all the requirements.

Just as circumcision in the flesh is the signed Abrahamic covenant we know it to mean something more so we don't look to the flesh we look to what it points to. Physical observance of the Sabbath as articulated in Ex 31 is the signed mosaic covenant and in the same way it points to something greater and in the same way we should have our eyes fixed on what it points to not the sign.

The Sabbath sign are those who obey and are God’s people. That’s what the scripture says. Exodus 31:16-17, Ezekiel 20:20

This all comes down to who one worships. God in Truth and Spirit on His authority or what was changed by man that Jesus warns us of worshipping in vain by obeying traditions over the commandments of God. Matthew 15:3-9

You will not find circumcision in the personally written Ten Commandments by God, Paul tells us to obey the Commandments of God, that is what matters, not circumcision. Circumcision of the heart, cutting away the sins is now demonstrated through baptism.

 

[DamianWarS]

The Sabbath sign are those who obey and are God’s people. That’s what the scripture says. Exodus 31:16-17, Ezekiel 20:20

This all comes down to who one worships. God in Truth and Spirit on His authority or what was changed by man that Jesus warns us of worshipping in vain by obeying traditions over the commandments of God. Matthew 15:3-9

You will not find circumcision in the personally written Ten Commandments by God, Paul tells us to obey the Commandments of God, that is what matters, not circumcision. Circumcision of the heart, cutting away the sins is now demonstrated through baptism.

You conflate a lot of terms from opinion. I could just as easily cite Mat 15 and accuse you of traditions of man but that in itself doesn't proove anything except that you disagree. The one who follows God's desire is following his commands that one who doesn't is following traditions of man.

Circumcision is not written on stone but it is as much from God as the 4th commandment is. It is a sign of the everlasting covenant between Abraham and God. Does everlasting mean the same when it is spoken of Sabbath?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You conflate a lot of terms from opinion. I could just as easily cite Mat 15 and accuse you of traditions of man but that in itself doesn't proove anything except that you disagree. The one who follows God's desire is following his commands that one who doesn't is following traditions of man.

Circumcision is not written on stone but it is as much from God as the 4th commandment is. It is a sign of the everlasting covenant between Abraham and God. Does everlasting mean the same when it is spoken of Sabbath?

Jesus was very specific said those who keep traditions of man over the commandments of God worship in vain. Matthew 15:3-9. Some traditions are fine, but when you obey mans traditions over the commandments of God there lies the problem. Obeying man’s authority over God’s authority. The Sabbath is a commandment of God, written by the finger of God. Placed inside the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple that is also revealed in Heaven. Revelation 11:19 God told us to “Remember” Exodus 20:8 so I think that means we should not forget!

 

[DamianWarS]

Jesus was very specific said those who keep traditions of man over the commandments of God worship in vain.

and you're choosing what is the commandment of God and what is not then wagging your finger at me for doing the same thing implicitly accusing me of following traditions of man. Who gives you such authority? There are far more laws than the 10, but you're conflating "commandments of God" with the 10 commandments and propping that up with the idea the 10 are special and that apparently settles it. But this is not based on anything except a "because I said so" sentiment and you seem unable to go beyond this. The sabbath law is a sign of the covenant between Israel and God, as a sign, it points to the entire covenant and when we declare it we declare the entire thing.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

and you're choosing what is the commandment of God and what is not then wagging you're finger at me for doing the same thing accusing me of following traditions of man. Who gives you such authority? There are far more laws than the 10, but you're conflating "commandments of God" with the 10 commandments and propping that up with the idea the 10 are special and that apparently settles it. But this is not based on anything except a "because I said so" sentiment and you seem unable to go beyond this. The sabbath law is a sign of the covenant between Israel and God, as a sign, it points to the entire covenant and when we declare it we declare the entire thing.

I never accused you of anything, I was posting scripture of very clear scripture that Jesus said Matthew 15:3-9, not me in regards to obeying God over mans traditions.

Yes, there are more commandments than just the Sabbath, but that IS a commandment of God written by the finger of God. Exodus 20:8-11 God wants us to obey God “the Creator” not man “the creation”. If God told us to keep holy Tuesday, who are we to argue? God claimed the seventh day as His holy day from Creation. Genesis 2:1-3 God worked six days and rested the seventh day, not because God needs rest, this was the example for us. God told us verbatim to do the same thing- work six days but the seventh day is holy to God and for us. Exodus 20:8-11

 

[Servus]

and you're choosing what is the commandment of God and what is not then wagging you're finger at me for doing the same thing accusing me of following traditions of man. Who gives you such authority? There are far more laws than the 10, but you're conflating "commandments of God" with the 10 commandments and propping that up with the idea the 10 are special and that apparently settles it. But this is not based on anything except a "because I said so" sentiment and you seem unable to go beyond this.

It's really only just one commandment. The others are virtually never mentioned.

 

[DamianWarS]

Yes, there are more commandments than just the Sabbath, but that IS a commandment of God written by the finger of God.

this is where things get fuzzy with your position. you've propped up the 10 commandments with special magic of the "finger of God" so that you can say when the NT says "God's commandments" what it really means is the 10 commandments (and when I say 10 commandments what I really mean is the Sabbath). there's a missing link between the two that you've happily ignored and it is a vital link. I can't track with this sort of defense of just pretending things fit together or trying to fill in the blanks of scripture.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

this is where things get fuzzy with your position. you've propped up the 10 commandments with special magic of the "finger of God" so that you can say when the NT says "God's commandments" what it really means is the 10 commandments (and when I say 10 commandments what I really mean is the Sabbath). there's a missing link between the two that you've happily ignored and it is a vital link. I can't track with this sort of defense of just pretending things fit together or trying to fill in the blanks of scripture.

There is nothing fuzzy about my position, because there is nothing fuzzing about the scripture that God personally wrote. Exodus 20:8-11, Exodus 20 Personally, I would never call the scripture God wrote with His own finger “special magic” because to me this seems disrespectful to God. The scripture God personally wrote with His finer was placed in the Most Holy of God’s Temple under the mercy seat where God dwells.

God wrote a covenant of Ten, Exodus 34:28 so I don’t think it's wise to reduce that into a covenant of one when God did not. The law of God points out sin. Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7 and sin is lawlessness 1 John 3:4. You break one commandment you break them all James 2:10-12. Breaking the Sabbath commandment is no different than breaking any of the other nine commandments. We have a very merciful Savior who wants to wash away our sins Ephesians 1:7 when we repent 1 John 1:9 2 Chronicles 7:14. True repentance means turning from sin and walking in obedience in Christ. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32.

God bless and take care.

 

[DamianWarS]

I would never call the scripture God wrote with His own finger “special magic”

I'm not calling scripture that, I'm saying that's how you're using it. this link is still missing and you're still riding off of calling the 10 special to say they transcend the covenant, that's the fuzzy part.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Thats what you called it, not I. So please don't accuse me of something that you said.

10 commandments with special magic of the "finger of God"

I'm not calling scripture that, I'm saying that's how you're using it. this link is still missing and you're still riding off of calling the 10 special to say they transcend the covenant, that's the fuzzy part.

There is nothing fuzzy about this, God made this commandment and all the others very easy to read and understand. The fuzziness appears to not be on my end.

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

I believe God and the scripture He wrote on stone for its eternal nature. The law of God reflects the character of God. God created man in the image of Him and we are told to follow His example. If resting and keeping the Sabbath holy is good enough for God it is good enough for me. God writes His laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant. Hebrews 8:10, Jeremiah 31:33 and Jesus kept the commandments of God and the Sabbath as our example. Thats good enough for me. John 15:10, Luke 4:16-22 We have free will so we will have to agree to disagree. Take care.

 

[Bob S]

Sin is transgression of law .... so what law? Obviously there is sin in the world ... so there is law .... else we would not know what sin is.

SDA does not teach justification by keeping the law .... they teach justification by faith.

The SDA church teaches the visions of Ellen White, their prophet. "But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth." {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

If that isn't justification by works of the law of the now defunct old covenant I will eat your hat.
Galatians 2:16
know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

The work of the Holy Spirit (not ours) helps us overcome sin and sin is transgression of the law (what law?).

You tell me. Is it the one that required Israelites to wear tzitzits and pay tithe with animals and produce? Is it the, incomplete sinful ways we can do harm to our fellow man, ten commandments?

Salvation is the beginning of the Christian life. After a person turns from their sins (repents from transgressing the law), and accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior, they have now entered into a new adventure and a Spirit-filled existence.

What law, wearing tzitzits? The Law was 613 commands. Every law that was written in the Book of the Law. Are the laws God wrote with His finger any more sinful to commit than the laws that God spoke with His mouth?

It is also the beginning of a process known as sanctification. Once the Holy Spirit becomes the guiding force for a believer, it begins to convict and transform the individual. This process of change is known as sanctification. Through sanctification, God makes someone more holy, less sinful, and more prepared to spend eternity in Heaven. Sanctification continues throughout our earthly life and is done by the Holy Spirit working in the believer to change their thinking .... when our thinking is changed our actions will change as well.

Are you telling us that the thief on the Cross wasn't prepared to enter Heaven? I say bologna.

so ... if there is sin there is law ... so what law?

The Royal Law of Love. Amen!

 

[DamianWarS]

Thats what you called it, not I. So please don't accuse me of something that you did.

you've misunderstood something here. I'm not calling scripture magic but I did introduce the word to represent how you're propping up the 10 commandments by using the "finger of God" phrase. What I'm saying is just because the 10 commandments is made by the "finger of God" doesn't mean they automatically transcend the covenant they are written in. it's not good enough to say that and you need to go a little deeper

There is nothing fuzzy about this, God made this commandment and all the others very easy to read and understand. The fuzziness appears to not be on my end.

the commandments are not fuzzy it's your logic of saying they transcend the covenant they are written in that's fuzzy.

I believe God and the scripture He wrote on stone for its eternal nature.

do you have something other than your belief to back this up? Do you realize stone itself is finite in nature? This begs the question why does God write eternal commandments on a finite surface? Moses certainly proved they are not indestructible.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

you've misunderstood something here. I'm not calling scripture magic but I did introduce the word to represent how are propping up the 10 commandments by using the "finger of God" phrase.

I am quoting scripture! Not sure why this would be offensive to anyone!

Exodus 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

Deuteronomy 9:10 Then the Lord delivered to me two tablets of stone written with the finger of God, and on them were all the words which the Lord had spoken to you on the mountain from the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

do you have something other than your belief to back this up? Do you realize stone itself is finite in nature? This begs the question why does God write eternal commandments on a finite surface? Moses certainly proved they are not indestructible.

God replaced the tablets that were broken so not sure of your point. The law of God is not on tablets of stone now, but tablets on our hearts in the New Covenant. Hebrews 8:10, Jeremiah 31:33 We should obey because this IS love to God . John 14:15, 1 John 5:3, John 15:10, and the law is written in our minds so we are not just hearers of God's Word, but doers. James 1:22, Romans 2:13, Revelation 22:14

You have free will to believe what God wrote with His own finger is something that we can ignore. It's not something I believe based on the entire bible that we should obey God's commandments. Our obedience is linked to faith Romans 3:31, James 2:14-26 Revelation 14:12, how we are known by God or not known by God. 1 John 2:3-5, Matthew 7:21-23 and linked to love Exodus 20:6, John 14:15, John 15:10 and God's saints keep the commandments Revelation 14:15. If the commandments didn't matter, why would the devil be enraged by those (the remnant) that keep these commandments? Revelation 12:17 Who do you think wants you to break God's commandments. It certainly is not God. 1 John 3:8

Jesus said: Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Doesn't sound like something that has ended to me, but we all have free will.

This is the only time I have for now so please take care and hopefully you will give some of these clear scriptures your consideration.

 

[Bob S]

When I wrote that the ten commandment were just the tip of the iceberg of what is sin, I had in mind Paul's writing in Gal 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I and others have been accused of being lawless because we do not believe anyone is under the ritual Sabbath law of the old covenant. After reading the above scripture do you still believe God's ten commandments are His complete set of rules you have to abide so that you are not lawless? Are the listed ones above any less important than say coveting? There are sinful acts not revealed in all of scripture. Everyone of them are covered in the Royal Law of Love. If we love God and our fellow man we will not do any of the hundreds ways that we could do harm. If all that some do is just keep the ten commandments then I would have to say they are the ones that are missing the mark. I am certainly glad I am not the judge, I can only inspect fruit, my own first.

In Jn 15:9-14 Jesus said He kept His Father's commands and asks us to keep His command of loving others as He loves us. If we really believe Jesus is our Savior we will believe what He said in Jn15:9-14. Jesus kept His Father's command to observe the ritual of the covenant He was under. In Jn 15 Jesus is not asking us to do that, He is asking us to love. Is that so very difficult to understand?

 

[DamianWarS]

I am quoting scripture! Not sure why this would be offensive to anyone!

I'm not offended. I know it's in scripture I'm just not using it to transcend the tablets beyond their context.

God replaced the tablets that were broken so not sure of your point.

my point is they are finite. I only bring this up because it seems important to you they are written in stone.

The law of God is not on tablets of stone now, but tablets on our hearts in the New Covenant.

if the law of God is not on tablets of stone why are we looking to tablets of stone to define the law of God? We should be looking to the tablets on our hearts which is the letter of Christ, not the letter of law. (1 Cor 3:2-3)

Jesus said: Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Doesn't sound like something that has ended to me, but we all have free will.

you've restricted "least of these commandments" to a 10 commandments vacuum. clearly, there are laws we no longer keep... like circumcision but circumcision doesn't seem to register in this list of the commandments because if it did it would defeat your logic. You've effectively done exactly what Jesus said he wasn't going to do by erasing hundreds of laws so you can prop up a single commandment.

fulfilled law does not need to be repeated over and over again because it's fulfilled, sacrificial law clearly shows us that. We do not break the law when it is fulfilled because we are not under the requirement of the law to break. If I graduate school I no longer attend class, take tests, or raise my hand to ask questions. These are all "rules" in a school vacuum that when broken there are penalties but once you graduate you can honourably remove yourself from the class without violating or breaking anything. The class is not abolished but rather honored and its diploma hung on a wall. Jesus was talented with words, nothing he said was limited to its surface meaning.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Signs point to something else, they are not the destination, this is inherit in the concept of a sign. The Sabbath law was the sign. It is the act of observing the Sabbath that is specifically the signed covenant. Ex 31 spells out all the requirements.

Just as circumcision in the flesh is the signed Abrahamic covenant we know it to mean something more so we don't look to the flesh we look to what it points to. Physical observance of the Sabbath as articulated in Ex 31 is the signed mosaic covenant and in the same way it points to something greater and in the same way we should have our eyes fixed on what it points to not the sign.

YOU said the law was the sign...I provided scripture that proves the Sabbath was the sign...THAT is what we were discussing...so thanks for agreeing with me

 

[DamianWarS]

YOU said the law was the sign...I provided scripture that proves the Sabbath was the sign...THAT is what we were discussing...so thanks for agreeing with me

Sabbath law or the observance of the Sabbath according to law is the sign of the covenant.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Sabbath law or the observance of the Sabbath according to law is the sign of the covenant.

When I said the Sabbath was the sign you said the sign was the law. Then I provided scripture that proved it was the Sabbath that was the sign as I said. I am glad you agreed that I was correct...

 

[YeshuaFan]

According to Jesus the Sabbath was made for all mankind. God made the Sabbath on the "seventh day" of the creation week where he rested on the seventh day and blessed the "seventh day" as a memorial of creation. There was no Jew when God made the Sabbath for all mankind just like there was no Israel when God made the Sabbath for all mankind *see Genesis 2:1-3; Mark 2:27. You may want to also consider that the name "Israel" is a name given by God to all those who believe and follow what Gods' Word says and is not covenant dependent because it was given to Gods people before the old and the new covenant were given. In the new covenant for example God's Israel is no longer only those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but also include all believers who have been born of the Spirit into God's new covenant promise (see Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29). All of Gods' Word therefore is for all of Gods' Israel who are now all those who believe and follow Gods' Word through faith.

Take Care.

The 7th day was not a 24 hour day as the first 6 were, as God has been ongoing resting from his creation every since!