Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[Zao is life]

Contrary to what many imagine, or have been taught, the beast, antichrist, the mystery of iniquity, the son of perdition, and that Wicked one, have been about for 2,000 yrs+. The beast therefore has to be a system, kingdom or a spirit. It obviously cannot be a man.

Most Bible scholars of whatever persuasion identify “the Beast” with “antichrist” and the “mystery of iniquity”. They believe that they all refer to the same entity. Also, “that man of sin,” “the son of perdition,” and “that Wicked” one.

The reason why many good Bible scholars have held that the “man of sin” is not a lone human being is because he has been alive and kicking for a lot longer than the lifetime of any human. In fact, the beast/antichrist/the mystery of iniquity/the son of perdition/that Wicked one has been about for 2,000 yrs+.

The Beast

Revelation 17:8 states, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

Revelation 17:9-13 further enlarges, “The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

That spirit of antichrist

1 John 2:18-23: “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

1 John 4:1-3, 5-6: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world … They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

2 John 1:7: “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

The mystery of iniquity (or lawlessness)

Paul explains in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 of his day, “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

That man of sin

2 Thessalonians 2:1-13 declares: “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the Second Coming) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

I put it to you we are looking at a spirit – a spirit that is the direct antithesis of the Holy Spirit.

The thousand years/Satan's little season refers to the here-and-now - the last days period. The persecution and martyrdom have been ongoing since Stephen. Satan, the beast and their kingdom has been resisting the Church throughout the intra-Advent period (Rev 20). Check Church history! We cannot ignore the persecution of the early Church, the genocide of millions of believers in the Middle Ages by the Roman church, and the ongoing persecution of the true Church globally today.

Even though it's true what you say, you're contradicting your earlier statement that the thing will intensify and reach it's peak in the final 42 years, and you're also overlooking the fact that the appearance of the man of sin of 2 Thessalonians 2, who is destroyed by Christ at his return, is accompanied by a falling way from faith in Christ. This is how Paul introduces the subject:

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, my brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 that you should not be soon shaken in mind or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word or letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.

There has been a falling away taking place for the last nearly 2,000 years, according to your interpretation of the passage.

But you have taken the trouble to answer my questions, so thank you for the answers.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I read up until this point, and then you lost me, because the accusation was false:

I said my mind was open, so I was asking an honest question.

But thanks for your reply anyway.

I don't know if you maybe copied and pasted your reply from your previous posts which you have stored. If so, maybe it would be a good idea to remove all ad hominem attacks from your storehouse of posts.

I apologize for that. I have been traveling for 3 days. I wanted to response ASAP to your points. Because I was tired, I largely copied and pasted my response from a similar interaction with David without proofing it.

Again, I apologize. That line was totally inappropriate for you. I will amend.

I appreciate your objectivity, thoroughness and openness to study. I have said that repeatedly. Unfortunately, I do not find that with David, thus my comments.

This is what I get for cutting corners!

I would ask you to re-read my post with that line removed (which was not for you, but for David previously).

 

[sovereigngrace]

OK so I continued to read after my initial sense of indignation at your ad hominem attack, and got to this part:

Which makes sense, if the thousand years mentioned in the same passage is not a literal thousand years but symbolizes the inter-advent period.

.. but if so, that would be the only place where the binding of Satan at the beginning of the inter-advent period is mentioned. It's not mentioned or implied anywhere else (not even in 2 Peter 2:4-8 and Jude 1:5-7).

Not only do 2 Peter 2:4-8 and Jude 1:5-7 NOT imply anything with regard to the binding of either Satan or angels at the time of the ascension of Christ, but the references to angels who are bound (found in the above verses) are not found anywhere else in biblical scripture:

An account of the binding of these angels that are mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4-8 and Jude 1:5-7 is found in the book of Enoch, where it is mentioned as having taken place during the days of Noah, and the surrounding context of the text of both Peter's and Jude's statements in the above passages, is itself a time which was already antiquity to the apostles' day, where Peter also mentions the days of Noah (among other ancient epochs in the pre-Christian era), and Jude mentions Sodom and Gomorrah (clearly speaking about events that took place in a time which was already antiquity in the apostles' day).

Therefore though Satan was indeed utterly defeated, and his dominion over the earth regained for man by Christ, 2 Peter 2:4-8 and Jude 1:5-7 cannot legitimately be used as biblical support for the notion that Satan was "bound" at the time of the ascension of Christ (i.e the time when the devil had been cast out of heaven and down to the earth).

1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 warn Christians of the activity of Satan in the world.

Furthermore, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 and Ephesians 2:2 tell us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.

It spans the entire Age.

So though many Christians believe that Satan was "bound" at the time Jesus ascended into heaven (in the sense of his being severely limited in what he may achieve), yet outside of Revelation chapter 20 there are zero verses speaking of the binding of Satan or even implying this to be the case, let alone verses that explicitly state it, hence leaving the notion that Satan was "bound" at the time of Calvary with a total lack of the necessary scriptural evidence that is legitimately demanded of any notion in need of biblical support.

.. but this does not mean that Satan was not bound, either. It's just one of those questions which Revelation 20 is notorious for causing a lot of debate about.

THE THOUSAND YEARS
​

I now realize that since God did not choose to inform the saints of how long it would be before Christ returns (Acts 1:7-8), then if Revelation 20 is talking about the inter-advent period, it would have to be represented symbolically somehow, and IF in His Revelation Christ chose to use a thousand years to symbolize 2,000 or more years, then that's how He chose to symbolize it, and the Greek could only use one word for "a thousand", so that's the word used. The fact that it literally means a thousand everywhere else it's found in the New Testament does not of necessity mean that it means a literal thousand years in Revelation 20, which as you point out, is a highly symbolic book.

And it's also true, as you point out, that many saints have been martyred, beginning with Stephen, then with Paul's persecution of the earliest Christians, then with Nero's persecution .. and so it goes on, even today in Africa, the Middle East, China and other parts of the globe.

I have to disagree with you re no support for the binding of Satan through the first Advent, culminating in the victory of the cross and the first resurrection. Genesis 3:15 predicted, “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”

This is metaphoric language predicting the impairment of the devil through the earthly ministry of the Messiah. Satan was going to be spiritually incapacitated through the work of Christ. We see two amazing things in this prophecy, first, a profound picture of the cross, and second, the acute effect that it had upon the devil. This prophecy is a remarkable forecast of Calvary and the consequence of Christ’s atoning sacrifice on the enemy. It also addresses the incapacitating fate that befalls Satan. This shows that Satan’s ability to function has been impaired. His power and that of his deluded minions is restricted through the preaching of the Gospel and the advance of the kingdom of God. Satan’s power and his movement has been restrained, albeit not completely.

Significantly, the first prophecy of Christ and His coming and the devil and his doom in Scripture is a symbolic one with a literal interpretation. This is surely something Bible students should carefully note. It is also worth noting that nowhere in this well-known prophetic passage does it predict that Satan would be destroyed at Calvary – that is still to come – but that he would be restricted in his operations through the spiritual brain damage he would sustain there.

The bruising of Satan’s head by Christ broke the unchallenged sway of the devil over the nations. Jesus destroyed the incredible lordship that Satan had on the human race and plundered his house of countless souls. Since the cross, numerous Gentiles have been set free from their blindness and bondage. They have been delivered into the kingdom of God. In doing this, Christ destroyed the claims, authority and ownership that Satan had over the nations. Jesus made a way of escape for the Gentiles out of the kingdom of Satan. The power and influence Satan once had over the Gentiles was assaulted through the earthly ministry of Christ. This curtailed the devil, allowing the free-flow of the Gospel across the world. Christ battered Satan’s house, damaged his authority, limiting the scale of his influence. He indeed destroyed the overwhelming claims and ownership that Satan had over the Gentile people.

Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (Gr. deo) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

The “strong man” here is Satan. His “house” is the dark area of spiritual influence that Satan rules over in the kingdom of darkness. His “goods” are the humans he enslaves in bondage and servitude. To “spoil his house” and “spoil his goods” is to conquer those who are enslaved under the devil’s control and liberate them into the kingdom of God.

Obviously, the fact that Jesus cast out devils by the Spirit of God demonstrated that the promised kingdom of God has already come. This parable confirms that the liberating of the elect could not happen “except he first bind the strong man.” According to Christ, this deliverance from captivity could not happen before Satan was spiritually bound. The binding therefore had to precede the liberation of the redeemed and was definitely not delayed 2000 years+ until the second coming as Premillennialists would wrongly argue. This all occurred through the earthly ministry of Christ.

He came to the strong man's house (this sinful world) and spiritually chained Satan. He is like a dog on a leash that will only harm those that foolishly get close to him. He has power and movement but it is restrained and limited since the ministry of Christ. The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvellously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (Gr. deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

Christ’s earthly ministry expressly bound Satan and damaged his wicked house on this earth. This was indeed what was prophesied in the Garden of Eden. It didn’t say that the cross would destroy him, but hamper him in his schemes. His head was bruised by the supernatural punch of Christ.

The Lord confronted Satan head on in his own backyard and soundly defeated him. Everywhere that Christ went, demons were subject to his every word. This authority was in turn delegated to his disciples who operated this same spiritual power were ever they gone. His servants enforced his authority casting many demons out and seeing many men and women delivered from the power of Satan to the power of God. This was unprecedented. God's people, as a whole, had now power over the enemy.

Significantly, the Greek word deo (Strong’s 1210) employed here is the exact same word used in Revelation 20 which means to bind in either a literal or a spiritual sense. This is what happened everywhere the kingdom of God was seen, the kingdom of darkness was suppressed. Moreover, at Calvary, Satan’s power to deceive the nations was spiritual bound or curtailed by the finished and victorious work of Christ. Revelation 20:2-3 states, “And he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and (Gr. deo) bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more.”

 

[sovereigngrace]

Even though it's true what you say, you're contradicting your earlier statement that the thing will intensify and reach it's peak in the final 42 years, and you're also overlooking the fact that the appearance of the man of sin of 2 Thessalonians 2, who is destroyed by Christ at his return, is accompanied by a falling way from faith in Christ. This is how Paul introduces the subject:

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, my brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 that you should not be soon shaken in mind or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word or letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.

There has been a falling away taking place for the last nearly 2,000 years, according to your interpretation of the passage.

But you have taken the trouble to answer my questions, so thank you for the answers.

I think most views apart from Extreme Preterism see an intensification of persecution before the second coming.

Satan is going to get a short run at the end where he will be able to deceive. II Thessalonians 2:3-13 declares, “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the second coming) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.”

And continues, “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

I believe that man of sin is a proliferation of unrestrained sin, rebellion and debauchery before the Lord's return. I don't see it as merely a person but as the spirit of rebellion within man. I believe Paul shows that this will infiltrate into the true Church. The flesh will come to the fore taking the place of Christ.

I believe this refers to the spirit of anti-Christ operating within the true Church in the last days – evidenced by the notable growth of false doctrine and unscriptural practices, signs and wonders. That is not to suggest that this anti-Christ spirit can possess the true believer – I don't believe so – but he can influence the believer to accept, expound and walk in error.

The "man of sin" is that natural carnal man within all of us. If we give him an inch he will usurp God every single time. The fact is, either Christ reigns on the throne in the believer or self does. There is no joint control. That man of sin is our greatest enemy in life.

 

[Timtofly]

That's not even true. They're not legit questions for anyone except Timtofly since he is the only one who would try to say that someone opposing "the camp of the saints" is not sinning by doing so.

So every time you oppose one of my post, means you are sinning?

That is based on the term "opposing". Not that you are representing the mob nor that I am the camp of the saints. Clearly it is the "opposing" that is considered the sin in your logical argument.

I would not call opposing a sin. Besides the verse says prepared for battle. Even that is not a sin. We are to put on the whole armor of God. That is preparing for battle.

Since no one is pointing out a specific law that is being broken, mere speculation is not working out either. Rebellion is one of the worse sins in Adam's fallen flesh. Rebellion is questioning the Law itself. Disobedience is still breaking the Law, not just going on a hunger strike because you hate the Law. Unless there is a specific law against a hunger strike. Yet no one has come up with a single, much less more than a million laws that can be physically broken in direct disobedience. The only law amil seem to imply is: there shall not be a future 1000 year reign of Christ. All living in this future millennium would be braking that law and considered sinners. Other than that, the reasoning is they all should be sinners, just because.

 

[Timtofly]

Amils believe (as you know) that this is confirming, what the rest of the OT and NT confirm, that the Gentiles are no longer in darkness. You have no answer for this and it exposes your position.

This is not even about a future reign of Christ. Gentiles are no longer in darkness because of Jesus as Messiah. Neither was Israel still in darkness either. The darkness had blinded Israel just as much as the rest of the world.

The future 1000 year reign is about the Second Coming and Jesus as Prince.

No premil has an argument against the Cross bringing the light of the Gospel to the Gentiles. That happened almost 1992 years ago.

 

[Timtofly]

You have to avoid these simple questions as they expose your argument.

Your simple questions are misleading and argumentive. They expose your argument. No one is a sinner in the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Now after the 1000 years, what is your point? Do you deny Satan is released, because to you, he was never bound. Where was Satan during the 1,000 years? Where is your proof he was deceiving any one during the 1000 years?

I am not defending sinners consumed by fire. I am defending your irrational point, they were sinners during the 1000 year reign. All based on the verb tense. Points you bring up because you avoid that all of Revelation is in that tense, and you would be a Preterist if you held to your own argument. You would have to admit that all of Revelation happened in the first century, even chapters 21 and 22.

It would be an irrational thought to claim they were not sinners as they were being consumed. They lost their right to life on God's ability to instantly judge one before they can harm any one else. To wait until they actually killed someone would also be pointless. But speculation is pointing out the state of their mind, when not pointed out in Scripture. At least that is your claim against me, ie the lack of Scripture. I guess it is wrong for me. But OK when you or other Amil do the same thing.

 

[Timtofly]

I apologize for that. I have been traveling for 3 days. I wanted to response ASAP to your points. Because I was tired, I largely copied and pasted my response from a similar interaction with David without proofing it.

Again, I apologize. That line was totally inappropriate for you. I will amend.

I appreciate your objectivity, thoroughness and openness to study. I have said that repeatedly. Unfortunately, I do not find that with David, thus my comments.

This is what I get for cutting corners!

I would ask you to re-read my post with that line removed (which was not for you, but for David previously).

How is ok to have personal attacks at some times, but not at others?

I have been reported for alledged attacks, but not once have I ever intentionally made a personal attack. Just thought I would point out the candor of this admittance, by stating my own interests in this subject.

If my post are blunt and to the point, it is definitely not me. Iron sharpens Iron. One thought begets another.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Your simple questions are misleading and argumentive. They expose your argument. No one is a sinner in the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Now after the 1000 years, what is your point? Do you deny Satan is released, because to you, he was never bound. Where was Satan during the 1,000 years? Where is your proof he was deceiving any one during the 1000 years?

I am not defending sinners consumed by fire. I am defending your irrational point, they were sinners during the 1000 year reign. All based on the verb tense. Points you bring up because you avoid that all of Revelation is in that tense, and you would be a Preterist if you held to your own argument. You would have to admit that all of Revelation happened in the first century, even chapters 21 and 22.

It would be an irrational thought to claim they were not sinners as they were being consumed. They lost their right to life on God's ability to instantly judge one before they can harm any one else. To wait until they actually killed someone would also be pointless. But speculation is pointing out the state of their mind, when not pointed out in Scripture. At least that is your claim against me, ie the lack of Scripture. I guess it is wrong for me. But OK when you or other Amil do the same thing.

Is rejecting Christ not disobeying God in your eyes? Is conspiring with Satan not disobeying God in your eyes? Is swallowing the lie of the devil and submitting to his rebellious agenda not disobeying God in your eyes? Is resisting Christ and the people of God not disobeying God in your eyes?

Revelation 20:9 states: "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Why would God destroy these millennial phonies if they were not dirty vile wicked sinners?

 

[jeffweedaman]

No one is a sinner in the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Why were those not glorified at the Lords coming considered sinless?????????

How did they become sinless?

 

[Timtofly]

Why would God destroy these millennial phonies if they were not dirty vile wicked sinners?

We all are dirty rotten vile sinners. Do you listen to Satan to become a dirty rotten vile sinner?

You point out assumed anecdotal imagined reasons. Where in Scripture are they called dirty rotten vile sinners?

 

[Timtofly]

Why were those not glorified at the Lords coming considered sinless?????????

How did they become sinless?

Revelation 20:4. They were physically dead. They came to life and judged. They were given permanent incorruptible physical bodies. You will get the sane resurrection they did, when you physically die. Do you expect to be resurrected as a vile wicked sinner? Revelation 20:4 never claims they were glorified. It does claim a resurrection. The same first resurrection you claim for yourself.

 

[sovereigngrace]

We all are dirty rotten vile sinners. Do you listen to Satan to become a dirty rotten vile sinner?

You point out assumed anecdotal imagined reasons. Where in Scripture are they called dirty rotten vile sinners?

It is obvious why you are avoiding all these simple questions like the plague.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Revelation 20:4. They were physically dead. They came to life and judged. They were given permanent incorruptible physical bodies. You will get the sane resurrection they did, when you physically die. Do you expect to be resurrected as a vile wicked sinner? Revelation 20:4 never claims they were glorified. It does claim a resurrection. The same first resurrection you claim for yourself.

The redeemed are perfected forever when Jesus comes. They are not coming back in their billions to this earth reject Christ and follow Satan and then be nuked by God and banished to the lake of fire as you propose. That is fanciful.

 

[Timtofly]

It is obvious why you are avoiding all these simple questions like the plague.

I am not avoiding anything. You are avoiding the cause of why they changed their minds. Even when they changed their minds. But changing one's mind is not sin. You have not proven your point. When you acknowledge the change, then I will point out the answer to your assumptions.

 

[Timtofly]

The redeemed are perfected forever when Jesus comes. They are not coming back in their billions to this earth reject Christ and follow Satan and then be nuked by God and banished to the lake of fire as you propose. That is fanciful.

You are missing the whole point. That is both fanciful and deceptive.

Where have I pointed that out? What Scripture points that out? You are making things up to prove your eschatology bias. No premil claims the redeemed come back to earth just to rebel against God. That is a bold faced lie.

 

[Zao is life]

I have to disagree with you re no support for the binding of Satan through the first Advent, culminating in the victory of the cross and the first resurrection. Genesis 3:15 predicted, “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”

This is metaphoric language predicting the impairment of the devil through the earthly ministry of the Messiah. Satan was going to be spiritually incapacitated through the work of Christ. We see two amazing things in this prophecy, first, a profound picture of the cross, and second, the acute effect that it had upon the devil. This prophecy is a remarkable forecast of Calvary and the consequence of Christ’s atoning sacrifice on the enemy. It also addresses the incapacitating fate that befalls Satan. This shows that Satan’s ability to function has been impaired. His power and that of his deluded minions is restricted through the preaching of the Gospel and the advance of the kingdom of God. Satan’s power and his movement has been restrained, albeit not completely.

Significantly, the first prophecy of Christ and His coming and the devil and his doom in Scripture is a symbolic one with a literal interpretation. This is surely something Bible students should carefully note. It is also worth noting that nowhere in this well-known prophetic passage does it predict that Satan would be destroyed at Calvary – that is still to come – but that he would be restricted in his operations through the spiritual brain damage he would sustain there.

The bruising of Satan’s head by Christ broke the unchallenged sway of the devil over the nations. Jesus destroyed the incredible lordship that Satan had on the human race and plundered his house of countless souls. Since the cross, numerous Gentiles have been set free from their blindness and bondage. They have been delivered into the kingdom of God. In doing this, Christ destroyed the claims, authority and ownership that Satan had over the nations. Jesus made a way of escape for the Gentiles out of the kingdom of Satan. The power and influence Satan once had over the Gentiles was assaulted through the earthly ministry of Christ. This curtailed the devil, allowing the free-flow of the Gospel across the world. Christ battered Satan’s house, damaged his authority, limiting the scale of his influence. He indeed destroyed the overwhelming claims and ownership that Satan had over the Gentile people.

Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (Gr. deo) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

The “strong man” here is Satan. His “house” is the dark area of spiritual influence that Satan rules over in the kingdom of darkness. His “goods” are the humans he enslaves in bondage and servitude. To “spoil his house” and “spoil his goods” is to conquer those who are enslaved under the devil’s control and liberate them into the kingdom of God.

Obviously, the fact that Jesus cast out devils by the Spirit of God demonstrated that the promised kingdom of God has already come. This parable confirms that the liberating of the elect could not happen “except he first bind the strong man.” According to Christ, this deliverance from captivity could not happen before Satan was spiritually bound. The binding therefore had to precede the liberation of the redeemed and was definitely not delayed 2000 years+ until the second coming as Premillennialists would wrongly argue. This all occurred through the earthly ministry of Christ.

He came to the strong man's house (this sinful world) and spiritually chained Satan. He is like a dog on a leash that will only harm those that foolishly get close to him. He has power and movement but it is restrained and limited since the ministry of Christ. The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvellously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (Gr. deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

Christ’s earthly ministry expressly bound Satan and damaged his wicked house on this earth. This was indeed what was prophesied in the Garden of Eden. It didn’t say that the cross would destroy him, but hamper him in his schemes. His head was bruised by the supernatural punch of Christ.

The Lord confronted Satan head on in his own backyard and soundly defeated him. Everywhere that Christ went, demons were subject to his every word. This authority was in turn delegated to his disciples who operated this same spiritual power were ever they gone. His servants enforced his authority casting many demons out and seeing many men and women delivered from the power of Satan to the power of God. This was unprecedented. God's people, as a whole, had now power over the enemy.

Significantly, the Greek word deo (Strong’s 1210) employed here is the exact same word used in Revelation 20 which means to bind in either a literal or a spiritual sense. This is what happened everywhere the kingdom of God was seen, the kingdom of darkness was suppressed. Moreover, at Calvary, Satan’s power to deceive the nations was spiritual bound or curtailed by the finished and victorious work of Christ. Revelation 20:2-3 states, “And he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and (Gr. deo) bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more.”

I have already disagreed with you in this before,

so I'm going to agree to disagree with you on this now, because I do not believe you are rightly dividing the Word when you equate what the Lord said about needing to bind a strong man before the strong man's good can be plundered, with what the Lord said in Revelation 20 about the binding of Satan, nor do I believe you are rightly dividing the Word when you equate the promise in Genesis 3:15 with what the Lord said in Revelation 20 about the binding of Satan. I do not believe you are rightly dividing the Word when you equate the bruising of Satan's head with what the Lord said about the binding of Satan in Revelation 20, any more than I would believe you would be rightly dividing the Word were you to equate the bruising of Satan's head with Satan being cast into the Lake of Fire (Genesis 3:15; Revelation 12):

John 12:31-32
"Now is the judgement of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

Revelation 12 is telling us about Jesus' statement above being fulfilled:

Revelation 12
9 And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death.

It's telling us about the bruising of the serpent's head by Christ. I do not believe it's telling us about Satan being bound, any more than it's telling us about Satan being cast into the Lake of Fire.

I believe that as above, the bruising of Satan's head is the restoration of Adam's dominion to the last Adam (Christ) and His saints who are in Him (which Adam had lost to Satan when he fell).

But I do not believe that Satan has been bound yet, any more than he was bound when he beguiled mankind in the Garden of Eden before the fall of Adam, and I do not believe that you are rightly dividing the Word when you equate the Lord's statement about the fact that when He cast out demons, He had bound Satan, and that this meant He had bound Satan once and for all in order for those demons to be cast out (which occurred multiple times, each time He, or His disciples cast out demons, even before the Lord's crucifixion).

I do not equate the bruising of Satan's head at Calvary either with the casting of Satan into the Lake of Fire, or with the binding of Satan in accordance with what Jesus revealed in Revelation 20.

Were it the case, the saints would not have been warned about Satan's activities, both by Jesus in His messages to two of the seven churches, and multiple times by the apostles in their epistles.

The lord Jesus Christ does not deal in half-measures, and Satan's binding involves far more than the loss of the dominion he had, because his binding, according to the Lord Jesus Christ, will render him completely and utterly unable to deceive anyone.

So I agree to disagree, because we are not going to agree on it. I didn't find your answer to my question regarding what constitutes the mark of the beast to be sufficient either.

But thanks again for explaining your position.

 

[DavidPT]

You are missing the whole point. That is both fanciful and deceptive.

Where have I pointed that out? What Scripture points that out? You are making things up to prove your eschatology bias. No premil claims the redeemed come back to earth just to rebel against God. That is a bold faced lie.

See how things work around here in regards to certain Amils, thus not all Amils around here? What they often accuse others of doing is what they themselves are doing.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I have already disagreed with you in this before,

so I'm going to agree to disagree with you on this now, because I do not believe you are rightly dividing the Word when you equate what the Lord said about needing to bind a strong man before the strong man's good can be plundered, with what the Lord said in Revelation 20 about the binding of Satan, nor do I believe you are rightly dividing the Word when you equate the promise in Genesis 3:15 with what the Lord said in Revelation 20 about the binding of Satan. I do not believe you are rightly dividing the Word when you equate the bruising of Satan's head with what the Lord said about the binding of Satan in Revelation 20, any more than I would believe you would be rightly dividing the Word were you to equate the bruising of Satan's head with Satan being cast into the Lake of Fire (Genesis 3:15; Revelation 12):

John 12:31-32
"Now is the judgement of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

Revelation 12 is telling us about Jesus' statement above being fulfilled:

Revelation 12
9 And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death.

It's telling us about the bruising of the serpent's head by Christ. I do not believe it's telling us about Satan being bound, any more than it's telling us about Satan being cast into the Lake of Fire.

I believe that as above, the bruising of Satan's head is the restoration of Adam's dominion to the last Adam (Christ) and His saints who are in Him (which Adam had lost to Satan when he fell).

But I do not believe that Satan has been bound yet, any more than he was bound when he beguiled mankind in the Garden of Eden before the fall of Adam, and I do not believe that you are rightly dividing the Word when you equate the Lord's statement about the fact that when He cast out demons, He had bound Satan, and that this meant He had bound Satan once and for all in order for those demons to be cast out (which occurred multiple times, each time He, or His disciples cast out demons, even before the Lord's crucifixion).

I do not equate the bruising of Satan's head at Calvary either with the casting of Satan into the Lake of Fire, or with the binding of Satan in accordance with what Jesus revealed in Revelation 20.

Were it the case, the saints would not have been warned about Satan's activities, both by Jesus in His messages to two of the seven churches, and multiple times by the apostles in their epistles.

The lord Jesus Christ does not deal in half-measures, and Satan's binding involves far more than the loss of the dominion he had, because his binding, according to the Lord Jesus Christ, will render him completely and utterly unable to deceive anyone.

So I agree to disagree, because we are not going to agree on it. I didn't find your answer to my question regarding what constitutes the mark of the beast to be sufficient either.

But thanks again for explaining your position.

What does it matter if you have disagreed with me before or not? It doesn't negate the facts being presented! The core of your argument is:

I do not equate the bruising of Satan's head at Calvary either with the casting of Satan into the Lake of Fire, or with the binding of Satan in accordance with what Jesus revealed in Revelation 20.

This is not a biblical explanation, this is simply you advancing your personal opinion. I say this respectfully, but, this is just mere personal opinion. In doing this, you are actually dismissing clear passages that show the defeat and binding of Satan 2000 years ago. Rather than address these passages you just dismiss them and the attached arguments.

What is more, you do not seem to grasp the actual import of Revelation 20. It is a reference to the enlightenment of the Gentiles after Christ's victorious first resurrection. It shows that sin and death no longer have dominion over the redeemed, Christ does. He defeated every enemy that was arrayed against us. Unless you see that you will never grasp the full meaning of Revelation 20. There is nowhere in that chapter that says the binding "will render Satan completely and utterly unable to deceive anyone." That is a Premil misunderstanding. The reference is to the ethnos (the Gentiles).

What is more, the interpretation you are presenting enjoys zero corroboration anywhere in Scripture. What other Scripture teaches the binding of Satan at the second coming, the release of Satan 1,000 years after the second coming, followed by him leading billions of millennial inheritors rebelling against Christ, His glorified people and His rod of iron? It is simply not there.

When it says that the devil will not be able to deceive the ethnos, it is saying that he will not be able to deceive the Gentiles any more. The deception is lifted – they are now able to come to Christ. The fact that the deception has been lifted and the light is shining globally from the cross does not mean all will be saved. It just means they have an opportunity to embrace Christ if they will only believe.

The Bible makes general sweeping statements regarding the darkened Gentiles as a whole before Christ came. They "were without Christ ... aliens from the commonwealth of Israel ... strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" before the First Advent, "but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Is this is telling us that every single Gentile had “no hope,” and were "without Christ" and “without God” in the Old Testament? Of course not! When it said the Gentiles were in darkness – did that mean every one of them where? Of course not. There were many Gentiles saved in the Old Testament. It is a generality. Scripture commonly speaks in general terms. Everybody knows that.

Does this passage teach that “by the blood of Christ” all Gentiles “are made nigh” or brought into a relationship with Christ? Of course not. This is telling us that the Gospel opportunity is now open to the Gentiles since the cross. They are no longer ignorant or without hope, as before. Through the sinless life, atoning death, and glorious first resurrection, the light shone upon the darkened Gentiles. They are now without excuse! Gentiles have the same ability to embrace Christ today as Israelis did before the First Advent. This is not a difficult biblical truth to grasp - if you do not have a theological agenda.

In Matthew 12 we see the religious Jews rejecting Christ. Matthew 12:14-22 records, “Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.”

Is this is telling us that every single Gentile will trust in the Lord? Of course not! It is a generality. Everybody knows that.

Why not take this as absolutely literal and all-inclusive as you take Revelation 20?

The enlightenment of the Gentiles saw the blinding of Israel. 2 Corinthians 3:13-18 says, "And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ."

Does this mean every single Israeli during this new covenant ear is blinded? Of course not. It is a generalization. If you want to go down the road you do with your uncorroborative opinion of Revelation 20 then you need to take the rest hyper-literalists. Everybody knows that.

What about Acts 2:16-18? It says: “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.”

Is this teaching that the Holy Spirit will literally be poured out on every single human being in the last days? Of course not. Everybody knows that. These are biblical generalities, just like Revelation 20.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I am not avoiding anything. You are avoiding the cause of why they changed their minds. Even when they changed their minds. But changing one's mind is not sin. You have not proven your point. When you acknowledge the change, then I will point out the answer to your assumptions.

So, in your estimation, it is not sin to turn your heart and mind away from Christ to Satan? Are you serious? Where did you get that from? Who told you that?

1. So, from supposedly submitting to Christ for a thousand years and then rebelling against Him at the drop of a hat when Satan appears is now not sin?
2. So, disobeying Jesus is now not sin?
3. So, conspiring with Satan is now not sin?
4. So, swallowing the lie of the devil and submitting to his rebellious agenda is now not sin?
5. So, resisting Christ and the people of God is now not sin?