Conrad Vine ~ SDA Pastor

[The Narrow Way]

I heard a taped conversation of Conrad Vine and someone else last week.... He's looked up to almost as an ELIJAH within Conservative Adventism.... What I heard on this tape really turned me off. How he thinks he could ever reach a PRO-LIFE Sunday-Keeper with the TRUTH of the Sabbath, when he says that those fighting to overthrow Roe V. Wade really haven't studied their Bibles, is beyond me. If I were them, I wouldn't be interested in ANYTHING he teaches...

“As people drift away from God and the gospel, they don’t drift away from the desire to be well thought of and to be thought of as a good person. And so becoming an ally of an oppressed minority group in the culture world view, the world view of the critical theorists is a way for me to become a moral person in the new secular atheist society that we are trying to build. Now, so that process is happening around us and within that process we are seeing a realignment of values within America, and movement say the heartbeat law in Texas, um, laws that have been passed in many States across America, which are challenging Roe V Wade, I don’t think they are based on, I don’t think they are based on people honestly studying their Bibles and saying we need to protect the sanctity of life. I think this is a cultural response, it is a symptom of the deeper cultural battle going on between the radical atheists and the social justice warriors and those who want to cling to a version of America that had Judeo-Christian values that they were blessed by but which they don’t necessarily want to live by today anyway, but they like the fruits of those Judeo-Christian values.” Timothy Perenich & Conrad Vine : Mandates and freedom of conscience - Prepare for what is coming at the 1:15 mark.

 

[Gary K]

I heard a taped conversation of Conrad Vine and someone else last week.... He's looked up to almost as an ELIJAH within Conservative Adventism.... What I heard on this tape really turned me off. How he thinks he could ever reach a PRO-LIFE Sunday-Keeper with the TRUTH of the Sabbath, when he says that those fighting to overthrow Roe V. Wade really haven't studied their Bibles, is being me. If I were them, I wouldn't be interested in ANYTHING he teaches...

“As people drift away from God and the gospel, they don’t drift away from the desire to be well thought of and to be thought of as a good person. And so becoming an ally of an oppressed minority group in the culture world view, the world view of the critical theorists is a way for me to become a moral person in the new secular atheist society that we are trying to build. Now, so that process is happening around us and within that process we are seeing a realignment of values within America, and movement say the heartbeat law in Texas, um, laws that have been passed in many States across America, which are challenging Roe V Wade, I don’t think they are based on, I don’t think they are based on people honestly studying their Bibles and saying we need to protect the sanctity of life. I think this is a cultural response, it is a symptom of the deeper cultural battle going on between the radical atheists and the social justice warriors and those who want to cling to a version of America that had Judeo-Christian values that they were blessed by but which they don’t necessarily want to live by today anyway, but they like the fruits of those Judeo-Christian values.” Timothy Perenich & Conrad Vine : Mandates and freedom of conscience - Prepare for what is coming at the 1:15 mark.

Just because something someone says makes you angry doesn't mean it isn't true. Look at how much the religious leaders of Jesus' day hated Him, and He never spoke an untruth.

 

[The Narrow Way]

Just because something someone says makes you angry doesn't mean it isn't true. Look at how much the religious leaders of Jesus' day hated Him, and He never spoke an untruth.

What part do you think is true?

 

[BobRyan]

I heard a taped conversation of Conrad Vine and someone else last week.... He's looked up to almost as an ELIJAH within Conservative Adventism....

Some folks do like him from what I have seen. But I have watched a few of his sermons recently and am not sure he is "spot on" ... I am not ready to "sign up" .

The area you point to in your quote of him also looks "problematic" to me.

So let's say we are right that his sermons are not always the best...what is your point? There are a number of pastors where I agree with them on some things but not everything as they get into some "examples" or arguments that seem to have a good intention but some of the details are not right..

 

[The Narrow Way]

Some folks do like him from what I have seen. But I have watched a few of his sermons recently and am not sure he is "spot on" ... I am not ready to "sign up" .

The area you point to in your quote of him also looks "problematic" to me.

So let's say we are right that his sermons are not always the best...what is your point? There are a number of pastors where I agree with them on some things but not everything as they get into some "examples" or arguments that seem to have a good intention but some of the details are not right..

To me, if a person is not Pro-Life, (he says he is, but he talks out of both sides of his mouth, you cannot be Pro-Life and at the same time in harmony with the official stand the Church takes on abortion), I really don't put any stock in anything else they have to say.

I don't think you would put much stock in an Adventist who didn't uphold the Sabbath right? Me either. So why would I put much stock in one that doesn't uphold the 6th Commandment? And I think that people should be warned...there are many "wolves in sheep clothing".

 

[Gary K]

What part do you think is true?

Overall? All of it.

Vine is speaking to using political power to enforce Christian beliefs on everyone. That is the combination of church and state power which is strictly forbidden by our Constitution and by the example of Jesus. I'd say you need to study the history 0f the Pilgrims and the Puritans as well as the history of the combining of church and state in Europe. Millions of people were tortured and killed in Europe by that combination of powers. The Inquisition too place over a period of a few hundred hears and the power behind it was the combination of church and state. That is now the goal of many Christians in their desire to eradicate behaviors they do not like.

Jesus was killed by those of His own faith because His conscience would not allow Him to bow to political power. So were the Christian martyrs for many, many years. Conscience must be the rule of faith and the rule of life. As soon as politics is inserted into beliefs corruption and persecution are the result.

 

[Gary K]

Some folks do like him from what I have seen. But I have watched a few of his sermons recently and am not sure he is "spot on" ... I am not ready to "sign up" .

The area you point to in your quote of him also looks "problematic" to me.

So let's say we are right that his sermons are not always the best...what is your point? There are a number of pastors where I agree with them on some things but not everything as they get into some "examples" or arguments that seem to have a good intention but some of the details are not right..

If I was you I would read chapter 16 of GC. You might very well change your mind.

 

[BobRyan]

If I was you I would read chapter 16 of GC. You might very well change your mind.

It is on the pilgrims, Roger Williams etc. I have read it a few times but I don't see the connection since we have no Bible doctrine on wearing blue shoes, or masks, or vaccine use.

Overall? All of it.

Vine is speaking to using political power to enforce Christian beliefs on everyone. That is the combination of church and state power which is strictly forbidden by our Constitution and by the example of Jesus. I'd say you need to study the history 0f the Pilgrims and the Puritans as well as the history of the combining of church and state in Europe. Millions of people were tortured and killed in Europe by that combination of powers. The Inquisition...

ok .. agreed.

But can this be inserted into any topic? (as in the "blue shoes" example I gave)??

 

[Gary K]

It is on the pilgrims, Roger Williams etc. I have read it a few times but I don't see the connection since we have no Bible doctrine on wearing blue shoes, or masks, or vaccine use.



ok .. agreed.

But can this be inserted into any topic? (as in the "blue shoes" example I gave)??

As far as I'm concerned your examples are red herrings meant to distract from the seriousness of the issues at stake.

You don't see the difference between the combining of church and state by the Puritans and the principles of liberty and freedom by the Pilgrims? SDA's are not interested in that? We see nothing wrong with the Inquisition and the spirit behind it? We should find the color of shoes as important as religious liberty and the mark of the beast?

What difference is there between mandates for masks and vaccines and liberty? Should the government be telling a person what they must put in their bodies? Are our bodies the temple of the living God or the temple of the government? This is a serious question as to who we will follow, God or government? Who has that kind of authority over us? Who do we love? God or government?

 

[BobRyan]

As far as I'm concerned your examples are red herrings meant to distract from the seriousness of the issues at stake.

They illustrate the point that we don't change doctrine for every social issue that surfaces whether it be flu shots or vaccines for something other than the flue or mandates to wear certain shoes or mandates in hospitials regarding the rule that masks must be worn in surgical rooms, or masks must be worn when entering a patient's room that has an infectious disease or that has extreme illness.... none of these things "came up yesterday" and the church does not create "new doctrine" to address them.

You don't see the difference between the combining of church and state by the Puritans and the principles of liberty and freedom by the Pilgrims? SDA's are not interested in that? We see nothing wrong with the Inquisition and the spirit behind it? We should find the color of shoes as important as religious liberty and the mark of the beast?

Actually that is my same point - all the clear religious liberty infringement examples you give above are in stark contrast to vaccines and the color of shoes.

 

[BobRyan]

What difference is there between mandates for masks and vaccines and liberty? Should the government be telling a person what they must put in their bodies?

Are you asking "what difference is there between (mandates for masks and vaccines) -- vs -- Commands to bow down to images of Mary, commands about what day you can or cannot keep holy"?

It is the difference between actual religious liberty issues and social-distancing, masks, vaccines as precaution with communicable diseases in hospitals.

 

[BobRyan]

My argument is not that a nonsensical rule could not be passed regarding vaccines or social distancing.. my point is that it is not a theological, religious liberty issue.

civil liberty and civil social customs ... are not all religious liberty issues.

 

[Gary K]

They illustrate the point that we don't change doctrine for every social issue that surfaces whether it be flu shots or vaccines for something other than the flue or mandates to wear certain shoes or mandates in hospitials regarding the rule that masks must be worn in surgical rooms, or masks must be worn when entering a patient's room that has an infectious disease or that has extreme illness.... none of these things "came up yesterday" and the church does not create "new doctrine" to address them.



Actually that is my same point - all the clear religious liberty infringement examples you give above are in stark contrast to vaccines and the color of shoes.

So, as far as you're concerned the damage done by totalitarian fiat, lock downs, mask wearing, and vaccines, all of which have been proven not to work is not to be considered a matter of conscience. Did you know kids born during this time have had a reduction in intelligence scores of 25%. Did you know that constant mask wearing is proven to reduce your oxygen intake which is a major health problem? The psychological problems for kids is extensive as many small kids are now afraid of their friends. In other words they are going to distance themselves from everyone for the rest of their lives. That is a major problem for society as a whole. No parent has the right to say no to all these harmful issues for their kids? Just go along to get along and forget my kid's life being destroyed?

So why are the proven effective medications being denied for treatment? You ought to know the answer. Because if they are not approved the "vaccines" can be be forced on everyone.

The Bible doesn't address these kinds of ethical issues? Nobody should object to the dishonesty involved and just go along because the government says so?

 

[Gary K]

My argument is not that a nonsensical rule could not be passed regarding vaccines or social distancing.. my point is that it is not a theological, religious liberty issue.

civil liberty and civil social customs ... are not all religious liberty issues.

Yes it is. When anyone is told they "must" do something it becomes a matter of conscience with conscience on the losing end every time some "just obeys".

What I find amazing is that you would turn in your neighbor over mask wearing etc... because the government tells us we need to for "safety" just like masks and lock downs. Just how mindlessly obedient are you going to be?

 

[BobRyan]

Yes it is. When anyone is told they "must" do something it becomes a matter of conscience

hmm...

55 mph speed limit??
driver's license??
attend school of some sort?
pay taxes?
maintain your yard?
restrain your pets?
wear mask in hospitals in places where that is required?
Obey traffic signals, lanes, rules?

In social and civil society we are told we "must" conform to a great many laws/rules. In Rom 13 Paul does not say "civil authority has no right to tell you to do anything because that would infringe on your religious liberty"

 

[SabbathBlessings]

My argument is not that a nonsensical rule could not be passed regarding vaccines or social distancing.. my point is that it is not a theological, religious liberty issue.

civil liberty and civil social customs ... are not all religious liberty issues.

I agree, but the way they handled the vaccine is the issue and violated our constitutional rights. It’s not the vaccine itself, but the censorship that was allowed. The media prohibiting any other view except pro-vaccine, preventing flying and eating in some circumstances unless you have a vaccine passport. To me this is setting the precedence on what’s to come.

 

[Gary K]

hmm...

55 mph speed limit??
driver's license??
attend school of some sort?
pay taxes?
maintain your yard?
restrain your pets?
wear mask in hospitals in places where that is required?
Obey traffic signals, lanes, rules?

In social and civil society we are told we "must" conform to a great many laws/rules. In Rom 13 Paul does not say "civil authority has no right to tell you to do anything because that would infringe on your religious liberty"

I just have to shake my head. Apparently you think all civil rules are put in place by honest straightforward people. And you also forget that Paul says to avoid evil because the civil government is there to punish evil doers. What happens when civil government punishes right doing and rewards evil doing? That's what is going on in our nation today.

The government refuses to punish left wing criminals, and manufactures evidence against conservative people. The left can burn half the country down and it gets a shoulder shrug. They hold the conservative in prison for months without due process and refuse them medical care.

You pretend everything is as it has been since the founding of our nation. Well, nothing is the same any more. We no longer live in a nation run by the rule of law. We live in a nation run by the fiat of corrupt men and women. God's way of doing things has been completely abandoned. Now our government punishes those who do what is right and stand for what is right.

Just this conversation gets me labeled as a "terrorist" because I have told the truth.

BTW, I noticed you didn't answer my other post. Hmmm.

 

[BobRyan]

I just have to shake my head. Apparently you think all civil rules are put in place by honest straightforward people. .

no my argument is not that every speed limit law makes perfect sense - rather it is that we do not come up with new doctrine each time there is a speed limit and we have no "pay no attention to speed limit laws if you don't agree"

 

[Gary K]

no my argument is not that every speed limit law makes perfect sense - rather it is that we do not come up with new doctrine each time there is a speed limit and we have no "pay no attention to speed limit laws if you don't agree"

Back in the 70's my old man was driving through eastern Montana on his way to visit both sets of my grandparents. He was driving 20mph over the 55 mph speed limit but other drivers were passing him like he was standing still.

Pretty soon he sees a stater coming up behind him and he starts chuckling about how many people were going to get speeding tickets. To his surprise the cop pulls him over. He asks why and he gets told he is obstructing traffic and liable to cause an accident. On top of that he's told if he doesn't hit the loud petal he's going to get a ticket for obstructing traffic and reckless driving.

Montana was sick and tired of picking up the bodies of drivers who went to sleep on the seemingly endless straight stretches of eastern Montana highways. They unofficially raised their freeway speeds to 100 mph and their single car accident death rates fell dramatically.

Well, I see why you ignored my post on the government's response to the corona virus. If you had answered honestly you would have completely knocked the legs out from under your own position.

 

[BobRyan]

What happens when civil government punishes right doing and rewards evil doing? That's what is going on in our nation today.

The government refuses to punish left wing criminals, and manufactures evidence against conservative people. The left can burn half the country down and it gets a shoulder shrug. They hold the conservative in prison for months without due process and refuse them medical care.

No matter what bad ideas are promoted we don't have to agree with bad acting and we don't need a new doctrine for each bad idea.

You pretend everything is as it has been since the founding of our nation. Well, nothing is the same any more. We no longer live in a nation run by the rule of law. We live in a nation run by the fiat of corrupt men and women. God's way of doing things has been completely abandoned.

Still it is true that no matter what bad ideas are promoted we don't have to agree with bad acting and we don't need a new doctrine for each bad idea.