Which of these eschatology houses will get washed away suddenly?

[sovereigngrace]

40 years, in general, is not quick or soon from my perspective.

It seems 40 years is enough time for a generation to pass away

Numbers 32:13 And the Lord’S anger was kindled against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight of the Lord was consumed.

You're then going to have to change everything that you have said previously over the years about eggizō being interpreted as near, close, imminent, now that you are recognizing that it can mean a long time in human terms (40 years).

 

[sovereigngrace]

future coming? future judgement?

Are these questions or answers? One normally puts a question mark after a question. Why is it so difficult for you to recognize and accept these future realities? Why do you not want to talk about these? Will it take the focus away from Titus and AD70?

 

[claninja]

You're then going to have to change everything that you have said previously over the years about eggizō being interpreted as near, close, imminent, now that you are recognizing that it can mean a long time in human terms (40 years).

I’ve never interpreted eggizo to mean 40 years in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Why are you making up things that I don’t believe, and then saying I believe them? Seems like another misunderstanding or you are making another strawman argument.

My argument has always been “this generation” = the generation standing in front of Jesus, as the temple did fall in the 1st century. My argument is NOT that “eggizo” refers to this entire period, as you seem to mistakenly claim. My argument is that the statements of “has drawn near” and “litttle while”, as found in 1 peter 4:7, James 5:8-9, and Hebrews 10:37, were written in UNDER a decade away from 70ad, and thus the closeness and nearness is to be understood literally from the human perspective.

Which part are you having a hard time understanding that results in your repeated straw man?

 

[claninja]

Are these questions or answers? One normally puts a question mark after a question. Why is it so difficult for you to recognize and accept these future realities? Why do you not want to talk about these? Will it take the focus away from Titus and AD70?

We agree that the wedding feast is not full yet, correct?

 

[DavidPT]

We agree that the wedding feast is not full yet, correct?

As to the wedding itself, until it is fully furnished with guests first, the wedding is not going to precede that since that is the point of the wedding, that it involves guests being present first, thus going out to find the guests.

Matthew 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good : and the wedding was furnished with guests

And if this what I have underlined is still ongoing, as we speak, the wedding hasn't taken place yet, because this is meaning once all of the guests are gathered. Your position is not entirely clear to me. You and I seem to be in agreement about some of these things, while some of it I'm not certain if we are or not.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I’ve never interpreted eggizo to mean 40 years in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Why are you making up things that I don’t believe, and then saying I believe them? Seems like another misunderstanding or you are making another strawman argument.

My argument has always been “this generation” = the generation standing in front of Jesus, as the temple did fall in the 1st century. My argument is NOT that “eggizo” refers to this entire period, as you seem to mistakenly claim. My argument is that the statements of “has drawn near” and “litttle while”, as found in 1 peter 4:7, James 5:8-9, and Hebrews 10:37, were written in UNDER a decade away from 70ad, and thus the closeness and nearness is to be understood literally from the human perspective.

Which part are you having a hard time understanding that results in your repeated straw man?

That is not true!

Jesus said Luke 21:25-28, 36: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh [Gr. eggizō - present active indicative] … Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall (or mello or hereafter) come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

In the last post (we spoke about Luke 21:25-28, 36), through your own words and attached quotes, you intimated that the redemption drawing near refers to Jesus coming in power and glory in AD70. In one breath, you argue that the time between AD30-AD70 is near or close, and in the next breath, it is "a long time" (Matthew 25:14, 19-30). Your posts are confusing! Which is it?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes, that’s correct Harold Camping taught Jesus would return May 2011.

I’m not like some people here who have always belonged to a church. I don’t really want to give a testimonial but here’s how eschatology affected me, maybe you can see why focusing on the timing of Christ’s future coming can lead people astray.


As a child I attended some Vacation Bible Schools and when one of the neighbor kids invited me to go camping with his church group I went and learned some things. I “accepted Jesus into my heart” but I didn’t really know any theology.

When I was in my late 20’s, one night I was going through the radio channels and listened to “open forum” where Harold Camping would answer questions live on the air. It was interesting and I ended up listening every evening to the program. He was an Amil who believed in TULIP, I learned a lot of theology from him. I started looking for a church I could go to.

Harold Camping was deceived and taught that Jesus would return in May 2011. When someone is truly deceived they don’t know it else they really aren’t deceived. I think Harold Camping was trying to be completely honest. He would say things like “ I’m just telling people how I understand the Bible” and “ if I don’t warn people then their blood will be on me”. He didn’t receive a salary for his work, he lived off the proceeds from his construction business that he sold. When I look back there was nothing unorthodox other than his date setting.

I was deceived at that time, I believed Harold Camping when he said the church has gone apostate, the world is getting ready to be judged, the end is near. He had his laundry list of reasons why and they all seemed true and matched his eschatology.

After the date came and went I thought all his theology was wrong, I didn’t know where truth was. To this day if I try to talk to some of my family members about the Bible they say “remember when you thought Jesus was going to come” and they are not interested in hearing what I have to say.


I understand now that date setting is a big red flag. If someone says I think we’re in Satan’s little season or the 2 witnesses are currently being overcome it’s also a red flag. This may not be date setting but if Christ doesn’t come, at some point people are going to question your theology and may never again want to believe the Bible.

I’m ok with just saying Jesus is coming some day, that’s true, I just think there can be negative side effects when we go too much beyond that.

It seems that you completely missed my point even though I feel like I spelled it out for you. Honestly, that baffles me.

Anyway, there's a big difference between date setting by saying that Jesus will for certain come on a certain day and time and saying that He might (or might not) come in someone's lifetime. Believing that He may come in my lifetime while realizing that He also may not come in my lifetime has not affected me in a negative way whatsoever and I have no idea how it could adversely affect me. But, if someone told me He was coming on January 31st, 2022 (which He obviously didn't) and convinced me of that then I can see that as having a major impact on me.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Thank you for having the courage to share this testimony.

This is the rub. The majority of evangelical futurists here on this board, and indeed in this country, are not merely saying - and teaching - that Jesus MIGHT come in our generation (which is, of course, NOT what the apostles taught their flocks to believe), they are instead boldly declaring “Ours IS the last generation, Jesus WILL come in our lifetimes”… even claiming it WILL BE “within a decade” or so, as, “it IS the last hour”…(which, ironically, is EXACLTY what the apostles taught THEIR flocks to believe).

He was talking to me, not those people. I don't see things like those people do. I have never said that He would for sure come in our lifetimes. Do I think that's possible? Yes, I do. Would I guarantee that? Absolutely not.

My argument (remember, he was talking to me, not anyone else) is that believing He COULD return (but not necessarily) in our lifetimes can be beneficial and is not harmful. I'm not sure how anyone could disagree with that. But, expecting Him to come during our lifetimes, and especially expecting Him to come on a certain date or within a small window of time, can certainly be harmful to someone and I never said otherwise.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Verse 7 is likely pertaining to what took place in 70 AD. Verse 8 is likely meaning that the wedding was ready at that time, soon after 70 AD. Verse 9 and 10 though, those verses are involving the entire NT church era, IOW, those verses involve at least 2000 years where this is being done throughout this 2000 years. In verse 10---and the wedding was furnished with guests---is meaning in the end of this age when all who will be brought into the kingdom have been brought into the kingdom.

Verse 11 is meaning the coming in the end of this age, not a coming that allegedly took place soon after 70 AD. Clearly, verse 9 and 10 involve a considerable amount of time to fulfill that. And how is it fulfilled? By the preaching of the gospel for one.

In Revelation 19 that is involving His coming in the end of this age, and in that chapter we are then told this---

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

There are not two weddings, there is only one wedding. This wedding was intitially ready in the first century except they which were bidden were not worthy. This then led to His servants going out to find guests for this wedding, which involves the NT church era and is still ongoing, as we speak. Why would anyone want to make verse 9 and 10 in Matthew 22 only about someone in the first century? Other centuries have followed after the first century. The first century wasn't the end of this age.

Great post, David. Matthew 22:9-10 has to do with the gospel going out to the Gentiles after it first went out to the Jews and, obviously, that is still going on today, as you said. So, it makes no sense whatsoever for anyone to claim that all of Matthew 22:1-14 is already fulfilled.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

correct, I believe this fulfilled, as stated multiple times now.

jesus predicted that “WHEN these things begin to occur, they would know their redemption is drawing near” prior to his crucifixion

When do you believe "these things" began to occur and what thing or things in particular marked the beginning of "these things" occurring? If you answer that, then it could clear up some of the confusion that's going on as it relates to how you understand things.

You've made it clear that you didn't ever mean that their redemption was drawing near at the time Jesus was speaking and I get that. But, I'm trying to see at what point exactly do you think their redemption would first draw near?

 

[grafted branch]

As to the wedding itself, until it is fully furnished with guests first, the wedding is not going to precede that since that is the point of the wedding, that it involves guests being present first, thus going out to find the guests.

Matthew 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good : and the wedding was furnished with guests

And if this what I have underlined is still ongoing, as we speak, the wedding hasn't taken place yet, because this is meaning once all of the guests are gathered. Your position is not entirely clear to me. You and I seem to be in agreement about some of these things, while some of it I'm not certain if we are or not.

Great post, David. Matthew 22:9-10 has to do with the gospel going out to the Gentiles after it first went out to the Jews and, obviously, that is still going on today, as you said. So, it makes no sense whatsoever for anyone to claim that all of Matthew 22:1-14 is already fulfilled.

I can’t remember where, but I saw a debate once on whether the body of Christ is the bride of Christ. This parable was used as part of the argument that the Gentiles are not the bride because they are invited (the same as those that were not worthy) but they are guests not the bride. I don’t remember what verses were used but it was argued that Israel is the bride and Gentiles are the body.

I’m just wondering if either of you think the bride of Christ is not the body of Christ.

 

[claninja]

As to the wedding itself, until it is fully furnished with guests first, the wedding is not going to precede that since that is the point of the wedding, that it involves guests being present first, thus going out to find the guests.

Matthew 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good : and the wedding was furnished with guests

And if this what I have underlined is still ongoing, as we speak, the wedding hasn't taken place yet, because this is meaning once all of the guests are gathered. Your position is not entirely clear to me. You and I seem to be in agreement about some of these things, while some of it I'm not certain if we are or not.

It’s important to understand that the ancient wedding process is not the same as modern weddings.

The wedding feast occurred after the groom returned for the bride and consummated the marriage.

i can absolutely agree that the servants being sent out to gather the good and the bad is still ongoing following the destruction of the original wedding guests, just as Christ sent his angels to gather the elect following the destruction of Israel.

 

[claninja]

That is not true!

Jesus said Luke 21:25-28, 36: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh [Gr. eggizō - present active indicative] … Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall (or mello or hereafter) come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

In the last post (we spoke about Luke 21:25-28, 36), through your own words and attached quotes, you intimated that the redemption drawing near refers to Jesus coming in power and glory in AD70. In one breath, you argue that the time between AD30-AD70 is near or close, and in the next breath, it is "a long time" (Matthew 25:14, 19-30). Your posts are confusing! Which is it?

My argument has been that the PERFECT tense of “has drawn near”, such as found in James 5:8-9 and 1 peter 4:7, means literally soon. Such is consistent with helps-word studies definition:

“eggízō (from 1451 /eggýs, "near") – properly, has drawn close (come near). 1448 (eggízō) occurs 14 times in the Greek perfect tense (indicative mood) in the NT which expresses "extreme closeness, immediate imminence – even a presence ('It is here') because the moment of this coming happened (i.e. at the beginning of Jesus' ministry)" (J. Schlosser).”

1 peter 4:7 and James 5:8-9 were written only a few years prior to, if not during, 66-70ad. Thus, again, the PERFECT tense of eggizo means literally soon.

You've made it clear that you didn't ever mean that their redemption was drawing near at the time Jesus was speaking and I get that. But, I'm trying to see at what point exactly do you think their redemption would first draw near?

When the disciples were to see “these thing beginning to occur, then they would know their redemption is drawing near”

so what are “these things”? The events of the entire discourse or just the events of the destruction of Jerusalem?

after looking at verse 36, I don’t think it involves the entire discourse. In vs 36, jesus states “watch and pray that you may be worthy to escape all these things”.

1.) That, then, doesn’t seem like it can include persecution because the apostles rejoiced at being “worthy” to suffer for Christ.

Acts 5:41 41Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name

2.) the coming of false prophets to claim “the time has drawn near” in the PERFECT tense and wars and rumors of wars prior to the destruction of Jerusalem did not indicate the end would come all at once.

Luke 21:8-9 And he said, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them. 9And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once.”

3.) additionally, the only part of the discourse where Jesus mentions fleeing is in regards to the armies surrounding Jerusalem to destroy it. It seems this where they should be wanting to be worthy of escaping Judea:

Luke 21:21 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it,

thus, i would argue “when ‘these things’ begin to occur”, refers to the beginning of the Jewish Roman war.

 

[sovereigngrace]

My argument has been that the PERFECT tense of “has drawn near”, such as found in James 5:8-9 and 1 peter 4:7, means literally soon. Such is consistent with helps-word studies definition:

“eggízō (from 1451 /eggýs, "near") – properly, has drawn close (come near). 1448 (eggízō) occurs 14 times in the Greek perfect tense (indicative mood) in the NT which expresses "extreme closeness, immediate imminence – even a presence ('It is here') because the moment of this coming happened (i.e. at the beginning of Jesus' ministry)" (J. Schlosser).”

1 peter 4:7 and James 5:8-9 were written only a few years prior to, if not during, 66-70ad. Thus, again, the PERFECT tense of eggizo means literally soon.




When the disciples were to see “these thing beginning to occur, then they would know their redemption is drawing near”

so what are “these things”? The events of the entire discourse or just the events of the destruction of Jerusalem?

after looking at verse 36, I don’t think it involves the entire discourse. In vs 36, jesus states “watch and pray that you may be worthy to escape all these things”.

1.) That, then, doesn’t seem like it can include persecution because the apostles rejoiced at being “worthy” to suffer for Christ.

Acts 5:41 41Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name

2.) the coming of false prophets to claim “the time has drawn near” in the PERFECT tense and wars and rumors of wars prior to the destruction of Jerusalem did not indicate the end would come all at once.

Luke 21:8-9 And he said, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them. 9And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once.”

3.) additionally, the only part of the discourse where Jesus mentions fleeing is in regards to the armies surrounding Jerusalem to destroy it. It seems this where they should be wanting to be worthy of escaping Judea:

Luke 21:21 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it,

thus, i would argue “when ‘these things’ begin to occur”, refers to the beginning of the Jewish Roman war.

As I thought, you would rewrite the narrative to fit your error. You always do. You have to! That is why it is impossible to take your teaching serious. You just manipulate the text to take the focus off Christ and His future return and unto Titus and AD70.

 

[claninja]

As I thought, you would rewrite the narrative to fit your error. You always do. You have to! That is why it is impossible to take your teaching serious. You just manipulate the text to take the focus off Christ and His future return and unto Titus and AD70.

cool. Great generic response that doesn’t explain how or why my understanding is “manipulating” the text. Really, 5 stars.


Nothing i have presented is outside Orthodoxy nor exclusive to preterism, as demonstrated by commentaries I previously posted.


So how did i specifically manipulate the text?

 

[sovereigngrace]

cool. Great generic response that doesn’t explain how or why my understanding is “manipulating” the text. Really, 5 stars.


Nothing i have presented is outside Orthodoxy nor exclusive to preterism, as demonstrated by commentaries I previously posted.


So how did i specifically manipulate the text?

Real simple! The signs preceding the return of Christ, and the redemption of His people, include nation rising against nation, kingdom against kingdom, great earthquakes in divers places, famines, pestilences, fearful sights and great signs from heaven. It involves intense persecutions. Of course, this has been ongoing since Jesus died.

Because this (like every subject we touch) exposes your paradigm, you remove the persecutions part from the equation because that would force you to acknowledge a lengthy period of time, thus exposing your thesis of "soon" and "near." You say: "That, then, doesn’t seem like it can include persecution because the apostles rejoiced at being 'worthy' to suffer for Christ."

This sums up what your theology is: manipulating the text to prove your bias and mistaken narrative. This is called eisegesis not exegesis. Text, context and co-text do not seem to matter to you.

 

[DavidPT]

3.) additionally, the only part of the discourse where Jesus mentions fleeing is in regards to the armies surrounding Jerusalem to destroy it. It seems this where they should be wanting to be worthy of escaping Judea:

Luke 21:21 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it,

thus, i would argue “when ‘these things’ begin to occur”, refers to the beginning of the Jewish Roman war.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


And in that same context having to do with---“when ‘these things’ begin to occur”---there is also verses 34-36. Should one really think verse 34 sounds like it fits verse 20 and 21?

Verse 34 mentions drunkeness of all things. And that is relevant to what happened in 70 AD exactly how?

drunkeness
methe
meth'-ay
apparently a primary word; an intoxicant, i.e. (by implication) intoxication:--drunkenness.

This Greek word is only used 3 times in the NT.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness(methe), and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

Romans 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness(methe), not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness(methe), revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Also in Luke 21:34 is this word---unawares.

unawares
aiphnidios
aheef-nid'-ee-os
from a compound of a - a 1 (as a negative particle) and fainw - phaino 5316 (compare 1810) (meaning non-apparent); unexpected, i.e. (adverbially) suddenly:--sudden, unawares.

That Greek word is used in only 2 passages in the NT.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares(aiphnidios).

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden(aiphnidios) destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

And finally let's look at where Jesus basically placed some of Luke 21:34 in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken(methuo)
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

drunken
methuo
meth-oo'-o
from another form of meqh - methe 3178; to drink to intoxication, i.e. get drunk:--drink well, make (be) drunk(-en).

methuo is also used in these following passages, but not only these, yet these appear to be the most relevant in regards to the Discourse, so I'm only going to submit two of them for now.

1 Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken(methuo) in the night.

Revelation 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk(methuo) with the wine of her fornication.

It seems to me then, just from this alone, Luke 21:34 and the day one should hope doesn't come up upon them unawares, this is meaning the day of the Lord since that is what 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is referring to. Galatians 5:21 then tells us---Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like--that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Matthew 24:49-51 then tells us--- But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If---And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrite---does not equal this---that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God---which then means Not Once Saved Always Saved, since the context involving Matthew 24:49-51 is pertaining to His professed servants---but instead involves events pertaining to 70 AD, that indicates I'm just wasting my time trying to understand what is being meant above since I will never be able to understand it if what is being meant above is involving 70 AD somehow.

I can not accept that any of the above, other than Luke 21:20-21, is involving anything pertaining to 70 AD. Therefore, if any of the above is indeed involving 70 AD, I will never be able to understand any of the above Scriptures properly since my mind won't allow me to accept that any of the above, other than Luke 21:20-21, is involving anything pertaining to 70 AD.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I can’t remember where, but I saw a debate once on whether the body of Christ is the bride of Christ. This parable was used as part of the argument that the Gentiles are not the bride because they are invited (the same as those that were not worthy) but they are guests not the bride. I don’t remember what verses were used but it was argued that Israel is the bride and Gentiles are the body.

I’m just wondering if either of you think the bride of Christ is not the body of Christ.

No, they are the same.

 

[claninja]

Real simple!

so simple you couldn’t just do it the first time…

The signs preceding the return of Christ, and the redemption of His people, include nation rising against nation, kingdom against kingdom, great earthquakes in divers places, famines, pestilences, fearful sights and great signs from heaven. It involves intense persecutions. Of course, this has been ongoing since Jesus died.

don’t forget the destruction of Jerusalem, which started the entire olivet discourse.

Luke 21:6-7 As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” 7And they asked him, “Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?”

has the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem by Roman armies been ongoing since jesus died too?

Luke 21:20-22 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

Because this (like every subject we touch) exposes your paradigm, you remove the persecutions part from the equation because that would force you to acknowledge a lengthy period of time, thus exposing your thesis of "soon" and "near." You say: "That, then, doesn’t seem like it can include persecution because the apostles rejoiced at being 'worthy' to suffer for Christ."

i guess I’m not understanding your counter argument.

Jesus indicated there would be false prophets and wars and rumors of war, BUT the end would not yet be. According to Luke 21:12, the persecutions would begin occurring BEFORE the false prophets and rumors of wars and earthquakes and famines and pestilence.

Luke 21:8-9 8And he said, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them. 9And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once.”

Luke 21:12 12But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors

Matthew 24:4-6 5For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.

1.) Do you believe one has to be worthy in order to escape persecution?

Luke 21:36 36But stay awake at all times, praying that you may be counted as worthy to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

2.) how can “the end not yet be” following persecutions, false prophets, and wars, and yet redemption is near?

luke 21:28 When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

This sums up what your theology is: manipulating the text to prove your bias and mistaken narrative. This is called eisegesis not exegesis. Text, context and co-text do not seem to matter to you.

This is ironic. The context is set in Luke 21:6-7, which is about the destruction of the temple and the signs it is going to occur. Why would you leave that out?

 

[sovereigngrace]

so simple you couldn’t just do it the first time…




don’t forget the destruction of Jerusalem, which started the entire olivet discourse.

Luke 21:6-7 As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” 7And they asked him, “Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?”

has the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem by Roman armies been ongoing since jesus died too?

Luke 21:20-22 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.




i guess I’m not understanding your counter argument.

Jesus indicated there would be false prophets and wars and rumors of war, BUT the end would not yet be. According to Luke 21:12, the persecutions would begin occurring BEFORE the false prophets and rumors of wars and earthquakes and famines and pestilence.

Luke 21:8-9 8And he said, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them. 9And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once.”

Luke 21:12 12But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors

Matthew 24:4-6 5For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.

1.) Do you believe one has to be worthy in order to escape persecution?

Luke 21:36 36But stay awake at all times, praying that you may be counted as worthy to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

2.) how can “the end not yet be” following persecutions, false prophets, and wars, and yet redemption is near?

luke 21:28 When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”




This is ironic. The context is set in Luke 21:6-7, which is about the destruction of the temple and the signs it is going to occur. Why would you leave that out?

I know, I know, I know, anything that takes you away from the coming of Titus and AD 70 is reprehensible and unworthy of conversation. What a very very sad doctrine.