Look up?

James_Lai

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Hello.

The other day I was listening to a great sermon, so powerful and insightful. At one point the preacher said, “let’s lift our holy hands up to heaven”…

Is it really up? Isn’t it a mistake to look up? Our round rock of a planet is constantly spinning and flying around the Sun and the Sun is flying around the centre of the Milky Way galaxy and so on.

Should we not look into our hearts? Isn’t it where the depths of God are hidden?

Otherwise, “up” is a grave misconception and dangerous error? As there’s no such thing as “up”, it’s nothing but a flat-earth optical illusion…
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Up is like the opposite vector of gravity, and heaven is an old word meaning the sky, outerspace.

There is a heaven beyond the heaven we see, this is where God is.

So when heaven is spoken of, it's probably that dimension.
 
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James_Lai

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Up is like the opposite vector of gravity, and heaven is an old word meaning the sky, outerspace.

There is a heaven beyond the heaven we see, this is where God is.

So when heaven is spoken of, it's probably that dimension.

How to access it? Isn’t the vector pointing to the outside physical world “somewhere up there high up” is totally misleading generations upon generation? As I don’t see that God is actually there. If we can access the spiritual realm where God is, it’s only achievable through within the heart
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Hello.

The other day I was listening to great preaching, so powerful and insightful. At one point the preacher said, let’s lift our holy hands up to heaven.

Is it really up? Isn’t it a mistake to look up? Our round rock of a planet is constantly spinning and flying around the Sun and the Sun is flying around the centre of the Milky way galaxy and so on.

Should we not look into our hearts? Isn’t it where the depths of God are hidden?

Otherwise, Up is a grave misconception and dangerous error? As there’s no such thing as “up”, it’s nothing but a flat-earth optical illusion…
"Up" is a metaphor as in above the "earthly". The Kingdom of God is in our midst, within us and all around us. But where do we focus our attention? Everywhere? Within? Up? I think it depends on our needs at the time.

Kind of like where is the quantum realm? Well, it is everywhere but it is in deeper.
 
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James_Lai

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"Up" is a metaphor as in above the "earthly". The Kingdom of God is in our midst, within us and all around us. But where do we focus our attention? Everywhere? Within? Up? I think it depends on our needs at the time.

Kind of like where is the quantum realm? Well, it is everywhere but it is in deeper.

Okay, but do you think directing people to Look Up is a bad mistake? Coz that’s definitely not where God is at all.

Jesus said, “the kingdom of God is within you”, not outside…

So it has nothing to do with the physical dimension of space
 
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angelsaroundme

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The people of the Old Testament recognized God's handiwork within the stars.

"He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names." - Psalm 147:4

"He who made the Pleiades and Orion, and turns deep darkness into the morning and darkens the day into night, who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the surface of the earth, the Lord is his name..." - Amos 5:8

Even if we disregard the idea that many, if not almost all, believed God was literally above them, the physical heavens were like a love letter from God. The sun's warmth, the rain for their crops, the constellations to determine the seasons, it was fundamental to their lives in ways we can't appreciate as fully now because we have electricity and such.
 
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James_Lai

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The people of the Old Testament recognized God's handiwork within the stars.

"He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names." - Psalm 147:4

"He who made the Pleiades and Orion, and turns deep darkness into the morning and darkens the day into night, who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the surface of the earth, the Lord is his name..." - Amos 5:8

Even if we disregard the idea that many, if not almost all, believed God was literally above them, the physical heavens were like a love letter from God. The sun's warmth, the rain for their crops, the constellations to determine the seasons, it was fundamental to their lives in ways we can't appreciate as fully now because we have electricity and such.

I understand. However, knowing reality about spiritual world, isn’t it a mistake to say Look Up?
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Okay, but do you think directing people to Look Up is a bad mistake? Coz that’s definitely not where God is at all.

Jesus said, “the kingdom of God is within you”, not outside…

So it has nothing to do with the physical dimension of space
Maybe so since people tend to take things too literally. I like the "Cave of the Heart" metaphor better...and "you are that temple".
 
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angelsaroundme

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I understand. However, knowing reality about spiritual world, isn’t it a mistake to say Look Up?
I think reality is complex. There are different levels of spirituality. For some a simple faith is all they need.
 
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Sketcher

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Hello.

The other day I was listening to a great sermon, so powerful and insightful. At one point the preacher said, “let’s lift our holy hands up to heaven”…

Is it really up? Isn’t it a mistake to look up? Our round rock of a planet is constantly spinning and flying around the Sun and the Sun is flying around the centre of the Milky Way galaxy and so on.

Should we not look into our hearts? Isn’t it where the depths of God are hidden?

Otherwise, “up” is a grave misconception and dangerous error? As there’s no such thing as “up”, it’s nothing but a flat-earth optical illusion…
The omnipresence of God makes all of this moot. He was talking about posturing ourselves before God in a way that is honoring to him.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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How to access it? Isn’t the vector pointing to the outside physical world “somewhere up there high up” is totally misleading generations upon generation? As I don’t see that God is actually there. If we can access the spiritual realm where God is, it’s only achievable through within the heart
The first humans had an alive spirit, so they could converse with God.

However, because of the ingesting of the knowledge of good and evil, they died in that spiritual sense. The bodies lived on and many children with dead spirits were born.

The access was made possible again through Jesus Christ who makes our spirits alive again when we are born again through the Holy Spirit.

The access is through trust or faith in Jesus Christ who died on the cross to blot out the effect of the ancestral sins, so we could be in community with Father God once again.
 
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Martinius

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Hello.

The other day I was listening to a great sermon, so powerful and insightful. At one point the preacher said, “let’s lift our holy hands up to heaven”…

Is it really up? Isn’t it a mistake to look up? Our round rock of a planet is constantly spinning and flying around the Sun and the Sun is flying around the centre of the Milky Way galaxy and so on.

Should we not look into our hearts? Isn’t it where the depths of God are hidden?

Otherwise, “up” is a grave misconception and dangerous error? As there’s no such thing as “up”, it’s nothing but a flat-earth optical illusion…
You are correct. We have no need to look anywhere but within ourselves (I bolded that part of your post). God cannot be in any place, since that would make God a finite being. Our soul, which is within us, is our direct connection to God. We are created body and soul, and since we know the body to be a finite, physical entity with a limited lifespan, our soul, which is spirit and is eternal, is the part of us that's in the "image" of God.

The concept of God above us is from the early view of a limited universe with earth at the center. The idea of a globe with people living on the opposite side, with their up as our down, was inconceivable.

But the idea of raising our eyes, or our hands, to heaven, is ingrained into our cultures. Think of it not as "up" but as outward, to some place beyond our human reality.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Hello.

The other day I was listening to a great sermon, so powerful and insightful. At one point the preacher said, “let’s lift our holy hands up to heaven”…

Is it really up? Isn’t it a mistake to look up? Our round rock of a planet is constantly spinning and flying around the Sun and the Sun is flying around the centre of the Milky Way galaxy and so on.

Should we not look into our hearts? Isn’t it where the depths of God are hidden?

Otherwise, “up” is a grave misconception and dangerous error? As there’s no such thing as “up”, it’s nothing but a flat-earth optical illusion…

It's equally as problematic to look inside ourselves as it is to think God exists "somewhere up in the sky". The reality is God is everywhere at all times, He is everywhere and fills all things. But the ancient idea of "the heavens" as the domain of the divine is extremely old, and the Bible frequently employs this language. It's why we read of Jesus ascending into the heavens, or speak of Christ being seated in heaven, etc.

So that language of "heavens" as corresponding to the divine is pretty strong in human imagination and thinking in many diverse cultures. As long as we don't confuse this with God literally being somewhere in outer space, this is fine.

As far as the lifting up of holy hands, that refers to a very ancient and very common posture of prayer in the ancient world. Both Jews and Pagans used it, and so Christians also prayed this way. Hence why St. Paul mentions it when he instructs men to "lift up holy hands in prayer" (1 Timothy 2:8). The proper term for this prayer-posture is known as the orans, from the Latin word for "prayer".

The most common time the traditional orans is seen is in traditional churches (e.g. Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran). Though it has also become very popular among modern Pentecostal and Charismatic groups as well in the last several decades.

The point of prayer posture (of any kind) is to exercise the body in prayer; hence why traditional Christian worship often includes kneeling, prostrating, and other bodily activity. The body is part of the liturgy. We look with our eyes, we smelll the scents of the incense, we sing and pray with our voices, we kneel, we prostrate, we stand, we hear the sounds. Traditional Christian worship is about engaging all of ourselves, as we come together for the public activity (the meaning of the word "liturgy" is "public work" or "activity of the people") of worship. We gather around Word and Sacrament, every article of liturgical dress, such as the vestments of the pastor/priest, the liturgical colors adorning the altar. Icons or maybe stained glass, or other iconic depictions of Christ, scenes from the Bible, or the saints.

All of this stuff isn't there just to make things look "churchy". Everything has meaning and function. Everything to help facilitate drawing the attention of the assembled Faithful toward God's Word, to Christ Himself who gives Himself in His Word, in the Sacraments. We pray together, we meet one another in peace, we come to the Table of Christ together, we hear the word of God together. And so together we are built up, united in faith, in hope, in love, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Eloy Craft

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But the ancient idea of "the heavens" as the domain of the divine is extremely old, and the Bible frequently employs this language. It's why we read of Jesus ascending into the heavens, or speak of Christ being seated in heaven, etc.
Are you saying that the Apostles didn't really see Jesus ascend, they just said that to keep with cultural norms?
 
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Are you saying that the Apostles didn't really see Jesus ascend, they just said that to keep with cultural norms?

I think they did see Jesus ascend. But does that mean that Jesus is floating somewhere in the material universe? No, I don't think that's what Jesus' ascension means, that's not what it meant two thousand years ago and it's not what we mean today.

The Ascension is about the Enthronement of the Messiah, whose Throne is at the right hand of the Father "in heaven". So we confess and believe that Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father. But it would be incredibly errant to think God is seated on a literal chair "somewhere up there".

To that end the most important meaning of "heaven", is that it signifies the power, reality, and authority of God. So we read, "The heavens are My throne, and the earth is My footstool" in Isaiah 66:1. We see that "heaven" is used to signify God, such as where the terms "kingdom of God" and "kingdom of heaven" are the same.

So the point of Jesus' Ascension, His ascension into the heavens, is about His taking His seat at the right hand of the Father. It's about the exalting of the Christ, such as we read, "So God has highly exalted Him and given Him the name that is above every other name". Such also that we read in the Acts of the Apostles that God has made Jesus "both Lord and Christ". It's what we read about in the vision of Daniel concerning the Son of Man taken up in clouds before the Ancient of Days and being given power and everlasting kingdom.

Did the disciples see Jesus physically taken up? Yeah. What exactly did they see, what precisely this all looked like, we don't know. But Jesus was taken out of their sight, and then is seated in glory. Any attempts to speculate beyond this gets us into all kinds of unnecessarily wacky and near certainly wrong ideas.

I confess that the Incarnate Son of God, Jesus Christ--body, soul, and divinity--lives and reigns at the right hand of the Father and fills all things, and whenever the Church comes together to receive the Holy Eucharist, Here that same Jesus is really, truly, literally found. So that the bread and wine is truly, physically and spiritually, the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. The same body that was conceived in Mary, that was crucified, that died, and that came out of the tomb, is the body of He who fills all things. How can this be? Only God knows, and yet yielding my conscience to the word of God I am compelled by Christian faith to confess this--and this I do joyfully and believing fully in these mysteries.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Albion

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Hello.

The other day I was listening to a great sermon, so powerful and insightful. At one point the preacher said, “let’s lift our holy hands up to heaven”…

Is it really up? Isn’t it a mistake to look up?
Of course you are technically correct. However, there are a number of references in Scripture that associate God and or heaven with "up" so I can understand any preacher using that wording.

As others here have said, consider the Ascension of Christ. See Luke 24:50-51 and Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11
 
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James_Lai

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"Up" is a metaphor as in above the "earthly". The Kingdom of God is in our midst, within us and all around us. But where do we focus our attention? Everywhere? Within? Up? I think it depends on our needs at the time.

Kind of like where is the quantum realm? Well, it is everywhere but it is in deeper.

What is kingdom of God for you?
 
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James_Lai

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The people of the Old Testament recognized God's handiwork within the stars.

"He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names." - Psalm 147:4

"He who made the Pleiades and Orion, and turns deep darkness into the morning and darkens the day into night, who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the surface of the earth, the Lord is his name..." - Amos 5:8

Even if we disregard the idea that many, if not almost all, believed God was literally above them, the physical heavens were like a love letter from God. The sun's warmth, the rain for their crops, the constellations to determine the seasons, it was fundamental to their lives in ways we can't appreciate as fully now because we have electricity and such.

Where is God for you?
 
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