Which of these eschatology houses will get washed away suddenly?

[parousia70]

copy @DavidPT
@parousia70 While that metaphor you point out is true, in my opinion, (I'm not personally sure about whether or not it applies to what Peter was saying, but the rest is true), you however offer no indication whatsoever in your post as to whether or not you believe that what Peter spoke about has already come, i.e the destruction of what was still the system at the time Peter wrote, and its replacement with a new heavens and new earth.

I ask this because you cannot have the one without the other, unless you want to place a gap of thousands of years between the destruction of the system Peter was talking about, and its replacement with the new heavens and new earth Peter stated is going to replace it.

Thanks for asking.

I concur with:
C.H. Spurgeon On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354)

As noted previously, The hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone. The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

I understand the passing of Heavens and Earth as it was used by the OT prophets, Jesus and the writer of Hebrews in the Context of God's Judgment Comings. We can see that Jesus (& therefore Peter) didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom, which all can agree is a present fulfilled reality that we aren’t still waiting for.

 

[Zao is life]

Thanks for asking.

I concur with:
C.H. Spurgeon On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354)

As noted previously, The hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone. The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

I understand the passing of Heavens and Earth as it was used by the OT prophets, Jesus and the writer of Hebrews in the Context of God's Judgment Comings. We can see that Jesus (& therefore Peter) didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom, which all can agree is a present fulfilled reality that we aren’t still waiting for.

Neither can anyone say it is not true, if that is what is meant by the heavens and the earth and the shaking of it. But the "yet once more" statement in Hebrews 12:26 plus the obvious meaning and context of Peter's words tells us unambiguously that Peter expected it to occur yet once more:

2 Peter 3
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now [03568 nŷn], by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

νῦν nŷn, noon
a primary particle of present time;
"now" (as adverb of date, a transition or emphasis); also as noun or adjective present or immediate:--henceforth, + hereafter, of late, soon, present, this (time).
See also 3569, 3570.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for [04328 prosdokáō] and hasting [04692 speúdō] unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for [04328 prosdokáō] such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

04328
προσδοκάω prosdokáō, pros-dok-ah'-o
from 4314 and dokeuo (to watch);
to anticipate (in thought, hope or fear); by implication, to await:--(be in) expect(-ation), look (for), when looked, tarry, wait for.

04692
σπεύδω speúdō, spyoo'-do
probably strengthened from 4228;
to "speed" ("study"), i.e. urge on (diligently or earnestly); by implication, to await eagerly:--(make, with) haste unto.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Peter is not teaching the readers of his epistle that the "yet once more" "shaking of the heavens and the earth" had already happened, any more than Paul was teaching the readers of His epistles that the resurrection to take place at Christ's perousia had already happened.

So while I accept that the heavens and the earth were shaken by the death and resurrection of Christ (they most certainly were), and the shadow of Christ and of the New that was contained in the Law, along with that system was gone forever, and the new had come, yet in the sense of the shaking of the heavens and the earth (Isaiah 13:10, etc etc), it had happened before and would happen again "yet once more".

I think to change the plain and unambiguous meaning of Peter's words and to change the meaning of Paul's words when he spoke about the resurrection from the dead at the time of Christ's perousia, and to drag into the first century the time for the fulfillment of the resurrected, ascended Christ's words when He promised His coming will be suddenly, swiftly and without delay when its time comes, is to change the meaning of scripture to suit a doctrine.

Does God approve, do you think, of the apostles' teaching and the words they chose in their epistles, which words far more than strongly imply that the "yet once more" shaking of the heavens and the earth, and the burning up of the elements of the current heavens and earth, the resurrection of the dead and the return of Christ, are what we all, in the words of the apostle Peter, should be and ought to be:

"Looking for [04328 prosdokáō] and hasting [04692 speúdō] unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for [04328 prosdokáō] such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:12-14).

You speak critically to those who do all the above about the lack of a "pastoral message" for all generations of Christians regarding the Olivet Discourse and the messages to the seven churches, but your doctrine denies a pastoral message in respect of all the above, because in terms of your doctrine, it's simply not necessary.

@parousia70 And while Peter teaches all the saints to "look for [04328 prosdokáō] and haste [04692 speúdō] unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat", you have also said something which is tantamount to falsely accusing those who teach the saints to do what Peter told all Christians to do, of being false prophets:

8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near. Therefore do not go after them.

How many people today, just in this message board alone, are saying "the time is near"!?
Yet Jesus is clear in His instruction that we are to NOT go after them.

So the question in my mind that I MUST ask myself is, whose teaching does God approve of: The apostles plain and unambiguous teaching, or yours?

My mind is made up with the teaching of the apostles, because both the text and the context of the text containing their teaching unambiguously teaches us all -- in Paul's statements regarding the resurrection of the dead at the perousia of Christ; and in Peter's statements in the above passage; and in the many other New Testament passages which state the same things -- to look for and hasten the return of Christ and the resurrection of the body.

 

[Zao is life]

As to this verse it is perfectly reasonable why it's not meaning suddenly. As for the time is at hand, why can't that involve a long period of time over all? If someone said in the end of the first thousand years of AD that the time is at hand for the next millennium, none of that can involve the entire 2nd millennium but must only involve a few short days or a few short years of the 2nd millennium?

Isn't that the same as taking the literal meaning of chilioi (a thousand) in Revelation 20 and stretching it out over thousands of years?

 

[Zao is life]

So you would agree that just because Peter was still waiting for it to take place, doesen't necessitate it be literal?

His future expectation for sure does not negate the preterist understanding of it arriving a few short years after Peter wrote his epistles.

Neither does it negate the futurist understanding of it arriving thousands of years after Peter wrote his epistles, especially in light of the fact that in its library the Catholic Church has volumes of history and writings by the earliest Christians that are not found in the scriptures, and there is absolutely nothing in either church or secular history to validate the Preterist claims.

 

[Zao is life]

copy @parousia70

The Greek word "mello" does not always mean "about to be" or "on the very point or precipice of happening". The word is used in Matthew 11:14.

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for (mello) to come.

Elijah (Elias), which turned out to be John the Baptist, didn't come until about 400 years after Malachi prophesied about his coming in Malachi 4. You're trying to say that the word can only refer to something that is about to happen soon, but here is a case where it is used to describe something that happened 400 years later after it was prophesied to happen.

Acts 26
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should [03195 méllō] come:
23 That Christ should [03195 méllō] suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

When the prophets wrote about the things that Christ should suffer, Christ was not about to suffer those things.

Romans 5
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was [03195 méllō] to come.

Christ was about to come since the death of Adam.

Romans 5:14 alone proves that the use of the word [03195 méllō] does not demand that it means something that was to happen within a very short period of time after it was spoken.

Thanks SJ. Your post prompted me to go searching through verses that use that word.

 

[Zao is life]

You missed the point here. It was stated by "Fullness of the Gentiles" that some preterists believe the new heavens and new earth were ushered in on the day of Pentecost in the sense that it made believers new creations or creatures in Christ. So, all David was doing was refuting that belief by referencing 2 Peter 3:13 which indicates that the new heavens and new earth was still something believers were looking forward to as of the time Peter wrote that verse, which obviously was after the day of Pentecost.

copy @DavidPT
Well, you work out what @parousia70 actually means below (especially in the parts of his statement which I highlighted in red), which he posted after he agreed with you that it's a straw man:

Thanks for asking.

I concur with:
C.H. Spurgeon On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354)

As noted previously, The hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T.

For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone.

The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

I understand the passing of Heavens and Earth as it was used by the OT prophets, Jesus and the writer of Hebrews in the Context of God's Judgment Comings. We can see that Jesus (& therefore Peter) didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom, which all can agree is a present fulfilled reality that we aren’t still waiting for.

If that isn't tantamount to saying the present heavens and earth referred to the heavens and the earth that existed before A.D 70, and we are now living in the new heavens and new earth, then I don't know what he means.

In any case, it's insulting to Christ and to the the blood He shed to say that "Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70."

All those who have a healthy appreciation for the cost of the New Covenant bought by Christ in His blood will disagree with the above statement, because we know that the passing away of the Old Covenant came in A.D 30 when Christ died (not in A.D 70 when that building was destroyed). The building meant nothing from the time that the veil was torn in two.

* Please understand that in this thread I want any valid points that Preterism either has, or may have, to come to light, and any fallacies to come to light also, so pointing out the things that I have pointed out is not done in order to attack, but because it's necessary to point them out, in order to bring to light whether these points are valid or not.

 

[parousia70]

the Catholic Church has volumes of history and writings by the earliest Christians that are not found in the scriptures, and there is absolutely nothing in either church or secular history to validate the Preterist claims.

Maybe no individual ECF held that ALL Eschatology was fulfilled in 70AD However, when we accumulate all the individual prophesies that any given ECF on their own DID believe to be fulfilled in 70AD, and put them together, we arrive very near a consistent preterist position, even if they were personally inconsistent on their application thereof.

For certain, the greatest number of the earliest Christians believed that a number of, if not all, prophecies of the Olivet Discourse were fulfilled in the first century destruction of Jerusalem. The challenge, in fact, is to find even one early Christian that didn't teach the Preterist interpretation of Matthew 24. The earliest and most significant writers were in unanimous agreement, proclaiming the fulfillment of these prophecies in the time of the AD70 destruction of the Jewish city, temple and nation.

Here's a snippet:

Origen - Against Celsus | John | Matthew "I challenge anyone to prove my statement untrue if I say that the entire Jewish nation was destroyed less than one whole generation later on account of these sufferings which they inflicted on Jesus. For it was, I believe, forty-two years from the time when they crucified Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem."

Chrysostom - Homilies on Matthew 24 "Was their house left desolate? Did all the vengeance come upon that generation? It is quite plain that it was so, and no man gainsays it."

Chrysostom - St. Chrysostom's Liturgy "Having in remembrance, therefore, this saving commandment and all those things which have come to pass for us: the Cross, the Grave, the Resurrection on the third day, the Ascension into heaven, the Sitting at the right hand, and the second and glorious Coming"

The ECFs recognized:

(1) that the great tribulation is past, transpiring at AD 66-70
(2) that AD 70 involved a coming of Jesus Christ in judgment

So, while they did not establish a biblically consistent preterism, they were far more preteristic in their understanding of eschatology than most modern futurists. The fact is that the ECFs had their hands full with formulating a consistent Christology (the nature of Christ and the Trinity), and didn't spend as much time formulating an orthodox, systematic eschatology. We know that the ECFs had mostly assigned Matthew 24 to the past, and the Protestant Reformers had a majority view that all Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the first century.

Classical preterism (i.e. The Catholic Preterism of the likes of James Aiken, Scott Hahn, St Cryssostom, St Thomas Aquinas, Eusebius, etc...) sees AD 70 as a temporal judgment of God/Christ.

St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, St. Eusebius all understood this basic principle of bible eschatology, and we really ought to take their words to heart.

As St. Thomas Aquinas taught:
The signs of which we read in the gospels, as Augustine says, writing to Hesychius about the end of the world, refer not only to Christ's [future] coming to judgment, but also to the time of the sack of Jerusalem, and to the coming of Christ in ceaselessly visiting His Church. So that, perhaps, if we consider them carefully, we shall find that none of them refers to the coming advent, as he remarks: because these signs that are mentioned in the gospels, such as wars, fears, and so forth, have been from the beginning of the human race (Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica, Supplement Question 73, Article 1)

And even St. Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa (AD 336-395)
"Do we romance about three Resurrections? Do we promise the gluttony of the Millennium? Do we declare that the Jewish animal-sacrifices shall be restored? Do we lower men's hopes again to the Jerusalem below, imagining its rebuilding with stones of a more brilliant material? What charge like these can be brought against us, that our company should be reckoned a thing to be avoided?"

 

[parousia70]

Neither can anyone say it is not true, if that is what is meant by the heavens and the earth and the shaking of it. But the "yet once more" statement in Hebrews 12:26 plus the obvious meaning and context of Peter's words tells us unambiguously that Peter expected it to occur yet once more:

2 Peter 3
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now [03568 nŷn], by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Excellent scripture.
Let’s look at the Context of 2 Peter as it relates to Heaven and Earth.
The context is the Flood.
Peter says that the pre flood world consisted of heaven and earth, and that they were destroyed by water and perished.

We know that the LITERAL substance of neither heaven or earth was destroyed, but it was the evil men that were destroyed, God brought "the flood upon the world of the ungodly" (2 Peter 2:5). Peter makes a distinction between the heaven and earth of Noah's day which were destroyed, and the heaven and earth that existed then which were to be destroyed by fire. The literal visible fabric of heaven and earth were the same after the flood as they were before the flood. Demonstrably, The destruction of heaven and earth refers to the civil and religious state, and the men of them.

What was it that really perished in the flood? Look at verse 6; "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished." It was the world that perished, right? Now what does the word "world" mean? It is the orderly arrangement of society, it wasn't the dirt. Now how do you go from an ungodly society that was destroyed to the destruction of the entire universe? The literal earth was not destroyed. What was to be destroyed in Peters passage is the ungodly nation of Israel. Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that the physical creation will be destroyed.

Notice what God said after the flood of Noah's day in Genesis 8:21.
Genesis 8:21, "And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."

Now, folks will say that the Lord destroyed the earth by water one time and He'll destroy it by fire the next time. Is God's promise here to just change his method of destroying everything? Is there comfort in being destroyed by fire instead of water? Or is he promising not to destroy the earth again?

God said the literal heaven (Psalm 148:4-6) and the literal earth (Psalm 104:5) will never pass away. Psalms 78:69, "...the earth which he hath established for ever." In Genesis 8:21, God said he would never again destroy every living thing. God can be trusted, He keeps his word.

The earth abideth for ever" (Ecclesiastes 1:4). And remember Isaiah 9:7, "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end." If the earth is to be destroyed, then that would be the end of the increase of Christ's government.

Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jeremiah 4:22-30) and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon (Ezekiel 32:2-8).
How does the literalist explain away those passages?

The Literalist is in essence calling God a LIAR when he claims God will destroy this present earth in our future and replace it whith a materially different "new" one, because we see above that God promised to NEVER destroy the Literal Earth, and He also promised to "NEVER AGAIN CURSE THE GROUND, and NEVER AGAIN Smite every living thing.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;

Notice that Christ PROMISES His thiefs coming would befall actuall living, breathing first century peoples:

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

What were those at Sardis to think if this in fact did not come to pass for them? That Christ issues empty threats?

 

[parousia70]

Does God approve, do you think, of the apostles' teaching and the words they chose in their epistles, which words far more than strongly imply that the "yet once more" shaking of the heavens and the earth, and the burning up of the elements of the current heavens and earth, the resurrection of the dead and the return of Christ, are what we all, in the words of the apostle Peter, should be and ought to be:

"Looking for [04328 prosdokáō] and hasting [04692 speúdō] unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for [04328 prosdokáō] such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:12-14).

Does God approve of countless "at hand" "near" and "soon" statements from the N.T. that always speak of reliable shortness of human time?

And not only does the bible say the events were at hand, it says they would ALL take place in their generation (Matt 24:33-34) and by the time of the fall of Jerusalem (Luke 21:20-22). Christ was to return before the apostles had all died (John 21:21-22; Matthew 16:27-28). The Thessalonians and Philipians would even be preserved in their human bodies unto that time (1 Thess 5:23; Phil 1:6,10).

 

[parousia70]

My mind is made up with the teaching of the apostles

He're are 101 teachings of Jesus and the Apostles My mind is made up with.

1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)

2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)

3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)

4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)

5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)

6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)

7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

8. "....the age about to come." (Matt. 12:32)

9. "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27)

10. "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)

11. "'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)

12. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)

13. "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69)

14. "The kingdom of God is at hand." (Mk. 1:15)

15. "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. ....They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them." (Mk. 12:9,12)

16. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Mk. 13:30)

17. “Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?” (Lk. 3:7)

18. “The axe is already laid at the root of the trees. " (Lk. 3:9)

19. "His winnowing fork is in His hand…." (Lk. 3:17)

20. “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” (Lk. 10:9)

21. “The kingdom of God has come near.” (Lk. 10:11)

22. “What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." …The scribes and the chief priests …understood that He spoke this parable against them.” (Lk. 20:15-16,19)

23. “These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Lk. 21:22)

24. "This generation will not pass away until all things take place.” (Lk. 21:32)

25. "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'” (Lk. 23:28-30; Compare Rev. 6:14-17)

26. "We were hoping that He was the One who is about to redeem Israel.” (Lk. 24:21)

27. "I will come to you. …In that Day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.' …'Lord, what then has happened that You are about to disclose Yourself to us, and not to the world?'" (Jn. 14:18,20,22)

28. "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" (Jn. 21:22)

29. “This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days…'” (Acts 2:16-17)

30. “He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness…” (Acts 17:31)

31. “There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.” (Acts 24:15)

32. “As he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come…" (Acts 24:25)

33. “Not for [Abraham's] sake only was it written, that [faith] was reckoned to him [as righteousness], but for our sake also, to whom it is about to be reckoned.” (Rom. 4:23-24)

34. “If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die.” (Rom. 8:13)

35. “I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us.” (Rom. 8:18)

36. "It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand." (Rom. 13:11-12)

37. “The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.” (Rom. 16:20)

38. “The time has been shortened.” (I Cor. 7:29)

39. “The form of this world is passing away.” (I Cor. 7:31)

40. “Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)

41. “We shall not all fall sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.” (I Cor. 15:51-52)

42. "Maranatha!" [The Lord comes!] (I Cor. 16:22)

43. "...not only in this age, but also in the one about to come.” (Eph. 1:21)

44. “The Lord is near.” (Phil. 4:5)

45. "The gospel …was proclaimed in all creation under heaven." (Col. 1:23; Compare Matt. 24:14; Rom. 10:18; 16:26; Col. 1:5-6; II Tim. 4:17; Rev. 14:6-7; cf. I Clement 5,7)

46. “…things which are a shadow of what is about to come.” (Col. 2:16-17)

47. “…we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord… …We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds… …You, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief.” (I Thess. 4:15,17; 5:4)

48. “May your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Thess. 5:23)

49. “It is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.” (II Thess. 1:6-7) [published by PreteristArchive.com]

50. “Godliness …holds promise for the present life and that which is about to come.” (I Tim. 4:8)

Continued....

 

[parousia70]

Continuing....

51. “I charge you …that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Tim. 6:14)

52. “…storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for that which is about to come, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.” (I Tim. 6:19)

53. “In the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self… …Avoid these men. For of these are those who enter into households and captivate weak women… …These also oppose the truth… …But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all…” (II Tim. 3:1-2,5-6,8-9)

54. “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and the dead…” (II Tim. 4:1)

55. “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.” (Heb. 1:1-2)

56. “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?” (Heb. 1:14)

57. “He did not subject to angels the world about to come.” (Heb. 2:5)

58. “…and have tasted …the powers of the age about to come.” (Heb. 6:5)

59. "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near a curse, and it's end is for burning.” (Heb. 6:7-8)

60. “When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” (Heb. 8:13)

61. “The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way of the [heavenly] Holy Places has not yet been revealed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.” (Heb. 9:8-10; Compare Gal. 4:19; Eph. 2:21-22; 3:17; 4:13)

62. “But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 9:11)

63. “Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin.” (Heb. 9:26)

64. “For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 10:1)

65. “…as you see the Day drawing near.” (Heb. 10:25)

66. “…the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries.” (Heb. 10:27)

67. “For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37)

68. “For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the one that is about to come.” (Heb. 13:14)

69. "Speak and so act, as those who are about to be judged by the law of liberty." (Jms. 2:12)

70. “Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. …It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!” (Jms. 5:1,3)

71. “Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.” (Jms. 5:7)

72. “You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.” (Jms. 5:8)

73. “…salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (I Peter 1:6)

74. “He …has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.” (I Peter 1:20)

75. “They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.” (I Peter 4:5)

76. “The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)

77. "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God.” (I Peter 4:17)

78. “…as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is about to be revealed.” (I Peter 5:1)

79. “We have the prophetic word …which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.” (II Peter 1:19)

80. “Their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (II Peter 2:3)

81. “In the last days mockers will come. …For this they willingly are ignorant of…” (I Peter 3:3,5)

82. “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God.” (II Peter 3:10-12)

83. “The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.” (I Jn. 2:8)

84. “The world is passing away, and its desires.” (I Jn. 2:17)

85. “It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)

86. “Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18; Compare Matt. 24:23-34)

87. “This is that of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.” (I Jn. 4:3; Compare II Thess. 2:7)

88. “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation. …About these also Enoch …prophesied, saying, 'Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly…'” (Jude 1:4,14-15)

89. “But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, 'In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.' These are the ones who cause divisions…” (Jude 1:17-19)

90. “…to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 1:1)

91. “The time is near.” (Rev. 1:3)

92. “Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.” (Rev. 2:25)

93. “I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world.” (Rev. 3:10)

94. “I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 3:11)

95. “And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.” (Rev. 12:5)

96. "And in her [the Great City Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." (Rev. 18:24; Compare Matt. 23:35-36; Lk. 11:50-51)

97. “…to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 22:6)

98. "Behold, I am coming quickly. " (Rev. 22:7)

99. "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:10; Compare Dan. 8:26)

100. "Behold, I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 22:12)

101. "Yes, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:20)

 

[DavidPT]

5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)

6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)

Is there a difference between being at hand and being nigh at hand?

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

I would think, chronologically speaking, Mark 1:15 is meaning before Luke 21:31 is meaning. And that I believe we should not assume Luke 21:31 has already been fulfilled.

 

[Timtofly]

So you would agree that just because Peter was still waiting for it to take place, doesen't necessitate it be literal?

His future expectation for sure does not negate the preterist understanding of it arriving a few short years after Peter wrote his epistles.

Are you not trying to make local prophecy global, so you can turn around and make global prophecy only local, and thus your own interpretation, instead of what is actually described as global?

Comparing the judgment of the whole earth to the destruction of Israel or Egypt, is misleading. Was not Israel destroyed and held captive for 70 years? Are you saying that did not happen? Was Egypt decimated by the Babylonians? The symbolic language did have an historical and literal event attached. It did literally happen. In Noah's Day heavens and earth were literally changed and destroyed by water. It did literally happen. So when Peter and John claim literal destruction of heaven and earth, even using symbolic words, you can rest assured, heaven and earth will be destroyed, and all will know it happens when it happens. It will be global not local. That did not happen in the first century.

If the argument is that God should have told all then it would happen in 2000 years instead of using words to describe it happening immediately, how is accepting the fact it has been 2000 years, our fault, and disbelief?

God did not say it would happen in 40 years either.

"And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness. After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. I the Lord have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die."

Where in the NT did God declare a 40 year period before Jerusalem would be destroyed? 40 years was not immediate or soon either. In this case 40 years is the same as 2000. 70AD did not come any sooner as you declare the text claims, than 2022. 70AD was at least 2 generations after the Cross. A generation begins every 20 years.

"Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me."

God did not hold accountable any under 20 years of age. 40 years later those 20 year olds would be 60, and considered old. There would have been another generation of fighting men 40 years old, and another generation almost 20 years old as well in 40 years.

The logic would demand Jerusalem had been destroyed within a few years and no later than 33AD, if God had destroyed Jerusalem to preterist demands. God gave no time period, not even 40 years.

 

[parousia70]

All those who have a healthy appreciation for the cost of the New Covenant bought by Christ in His blood will disagree with the above statement, because we know that the passing away of the Old Covenant came in A.D 30 when Christ died (not in A.D 70 when that building was destroyed). The building meant nothing from the time that the veil was torn in two.

Scripture is abundantly clear that the Mosaic Law was still in effect long after the crusifixion and resurrection:

Hebrews 8:13
In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The writer of Hebrews is clear. The Old covenant, the Law of Moses, was at the time the book was penned several decades AFTER the cross, was in a state of "Growing old" and "Becoming obsolete", but had not yet vanished as you assert.

1 Corinthians 9:20
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

Paul is also clear that in the 50's AD, there were still Jews who were "under the Law", which poses a real problem for folks who would say no one was under the law at that time.

The Temple being destroyed was physical confirmation of the spiritual reality of Jews being excommunicated out of Covenant with God, but it's destruction was punishment metered out by the provisions of the Mosaic Law, (Deuteronomy 18) therefore the Mosaic Law was required to be in effect and functioning, otherwise God is shown to be unjust because He would be metering out a covenantal punishment upon people who are not bound by the terms of the covenant.

Thankfully, God is Just, and the Jews of 66-70AD were under the Law and thus subject to it's consiquences for not following it. The Law ended with the temple's destruction, not at the cross.

The Law of Moses was still a living code being practiced in the Nation and entangling the Church (Gal 4:1-5:5) long after the Veil was torn (and repaired).

The Old Covenant was still present in the Nation and Christians were entangled in it (Heb 8:13; 2 Cor 3:6-12; Gal 4:24-25; Gal 4:1-5:5).

The Law Covenant was not yet vanished as of the 60s AD (according to Hebrews 8:13) and all followers of Jesus who were not walking according to the Spirit were cursed UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES according to Paul. Those Christ-rejectors were about to be judged by the Law of Moses at AD 70 (Romans 2:12; 1 Thess 2:14-16; Acts 13:40; Acts 17:31; 2 Tim 4:1; Matthew 23:33-38; Luke 21:20-22; 1 Peter 4:17). Millions of those jews who refused to seek the righteousness which is by faith were violently destroyed at AD 66-70, Under the terms of the LAW.

The Old Covenant Laws ALL had to be obeyed note for note by God's people. The curses and blessings of the Law are entirely dependent on the obedience of its subjects to the code. The judgments of the Law are what happened to Israel when the Babylonians destroyed them (read Lamentations). The judgments of the Law are what happened when the Romans destroyed them. Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 are the judgments of the Law, and could only be metered out to people who are UNDER THE LAW at the time.

Finally, If you Believe the Law is over, you must also believe this is now fulfilled, and Sin has no power today:
1 Cor 15:54-56
"then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; Where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O HADES is thy victory?' And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW

Indeed, All those who have a healthy appreciation for the cost of the New Covenant bought by Christ in His blood ought agree.

 

[Timtofly]

Since, as you know, I hold the thousand years of Revelation as a typological reference to the 1000 year Length of the Davidic Monarchy, which began with David and was completed in the generation of Jesus Christ a thousand years later, I'd have to answer "yes" to your question.

Technically a "no". It was soon "before" John wrote, not "after" John wrote.

How was Christ's resurrection, that first resurrection, typical of David being made king over Israel?

 

[Timtofly]

@parousia70 @Spiritual Jew @DavidPT
@EVERYONE else
My apologies. I have in the back of my mind that someone who is a Preterist said or implied that, and maybe whoever it was never even meant that. I may have misunderstood him and from then on believed that that was what Preterists believe.

It was not a deliberate straw man.

When did the NT church start according to many? At the Cross or Pentecost, in Antioch?

Any who claim the New Jerusalem is the NT church should not be offended at the specifics of when the NT church started, as no one really agrees on that point, or so it seems.

 

[Zao is life]

Scripture is abundantly clear that the Mosaic Law was still in effect long after the crusifixion and resurrection:

The above assertion falls outside the boundary of Christian doctrine. Just because it was still being practiced by the Jews does not mean it was still in effect.

Also, you keep mentioning the fact that A.D 70 was THE fulfillment of the Lord's words recorded in Matthew 23:38 and Matthew 24:1 (and the parallels in Mark 13 and Luke 21). It's not news to any Christian living in the 21st century. It never was news to any Christian of any generation. It was obvious.

You can't use the obvious fact I mentioned again above as a support for your claims that the resurrection mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Thessalonians 4 has already taken place, or that Paul's prophecy in 2 Thessalonians 2 has already taken place, or that Peter's statement regarding the end of the present heavens and earth has already taken place, or the the Lord returned when He "returned in judgment" of Judea and Jerusalem in A.D 70.

 

[parousia70]

Is there a difference between being at hand and being nigh at hand?

Not according to most futurists.

According to most futurists, terms like "soon, shortly, at hand, nigh at hand, about to take place, in a very little while, without delay, etc..." are either meaningless, or mean the exact opposite of what they say, which essentially renders them meaningless, undecipherable terms that are useless to men.

 

[parousia70]

The above assertion falls outside the boundary of Christian doctrine. Just because it was still being practiced by the Jews does not mean it was still in effect.

Paul must not have gotten that memo:
1 Corinthians 9:20
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

When choosing which of these two polar opposite claims to hold as true and correct, that the divinely inspired 1st century apostle Paul, and that of random 21st century internet guy @Fullness of the Gentiles, My money is on the Apostle being right and you being wrong.

I'm sorry but I won't be discussing these things with you anymore, or answering your posts anymore, because the statement you made above has made me realize that you don't have the basics of Christianity right, so whatever you say about scripture is going to be highly questionable.

You're welcome to take your ball and leave the sandbox if you wish. I certainly won't try to stop you. Sounds like the Kitchen is getting too hot for you anyway.
And I'm certain our readers have seen enough information from our exchange up to this point to come to their own conclusions on which of us doesn't have the basics of Christianity right.

 

[Zao is life]

When did the NT church start according to many? At the Cross or Pentecost, in Antioch?

Any who claim the New Jerusalem is the NT church should not be offended at the specifics of when the NT church started, as no one really agrees on that point, or so it seems.

I believe the birth of the church was on the Day of Pentecost. The church was born of the Holy Spirit in power and great glory on the Day of Pentecost, 10 days after Jesus ascended into heaven, and from then on through the Lord's chosen apostles (including Paul, who was added to the 12 later), the church was established with power and great glory through the testimony and miracles of the apostles. This is why the apostles are metaphorically speaking the foundation of the church, New Jerusalem, and Christ the Chief corner stone.