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Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

Timtofly

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The last trump is the time when “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” This is the last trump, which is after the thousand years. It the time when the righteous expressly receive their “reward” and when Christ will “destroy” the wicked. For those that refuse to bow the knee to Christ it will be a time of “wrath.” We see here that there are two parties standing before the same throne receiving two diverse sentences.
This is the time the living unrighteous are judged, and the church awarded in Paradise. At the Second Coming the church is glorified in Paradise. The unrighteous are judged on earth.

And the nations were angry (those left after the final harvest), and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead (living unrighteous), that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints (the church glorified in Paradise), and them that fear thy name, small and great(the church glorified in Paradise) ; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth (42 months given to Satan or the winepress in Revelation 14).

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Armageddon is waiting at the end of the 42 months.
 
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Timtofly

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Isaiah also speaks of the resurrection of the dead, in Isaiah 26:19-21:1, and also identifies it with the time and events that surround the end of the millennium, saying, Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon.”

The passage declares, “behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.” The Hebrew word used here for slain is ‘harag’ meaning to destroy out of hand, kill, and put to death. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore assuredly happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly advanced as the time when Satan is finally slain.
Don't forget to interpret this from the NT.

The first resurrection happened at the Cross, with Christ's resurrection. Matthew 27:52-53.

We know there has already been 1991 years between the first resurrection and the judgment on Satan and the living unrighteous at the Second Coming.

Still not the GWT with the physically dead unrighteous over 1000 years from now.

1 Corinthians 15:23-28

"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits (the OT at the Cross); afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (rapture of living redeemed). Then cometh the end (after the 1000 year reign), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

The OT prophets saw the whole 3000 years as 1 singular event. Even the fulness of the Gentiles would be instantaneous. They saw through the glass very darkly. Even more so than Paul in the NT.
 
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Timtofly

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The last day off the last days is the second coming. This is when the living and the dead will stand at the great white throne an account for the lives. Job will be among that number. There is no where it says it is "the Last Day of the OT Covenant." You conveniently become a Preterist when it suits your purposes. Your arguments are self-contradictory.
Those in the OT saw through a darker glass. I don't think that works well 1991 years after the Cross.
 
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sovereigngrace

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This is the time the living unrighteous are judged, and the church awarded in Paradise. At the Second Coming the church is glorified in Paradise. The unrighteous are judged on earth.

And the nations were angry (those left after the final harvest), and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead (living unrighteous), that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints (the church glorified in Paradise), and them that fear thy name, small and great(the church glorified in Paradise) ; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth (42 months given to Satan or the winepress in Revelation 14).

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Armageddon is waiting at the end of the 42 months.

Are you serious? The text says this is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged” and you try to argue "this is the time the living unrighteous are judged." This is typical of how you try to make the Scriptures say the opposite to what they say. You make the judgment of all the dead the judgment of the living. That is ridiculous. You then add another clause to Scripture to support your false teaching - by restricting it to the living unrighteous. This is messed up. You are (once again) fighting with the Bible.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Those in the OT saw through a darker glass. I don't think that works well 1991 years after the Cross.

What? So, you are rejecting the OT inspired witness now because it exposes your error?
 
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Timtofly

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You are telling us that Gog and Magog are the redeemed dead who are "beheaded for not taking the mark" who populate your sin-cursed death-blighted corrupt millennial earth and then suddenly decide en-masse (in their glorified bodies) to turn on Christ and embrace Satanism. You then reward them for this great betrayal of Jesus by not allowing Jesus to judge them or destroy them.

Personally, I never heard anything so absurd in my life. This is totally ridiculous. This should be rejected by every sound evangelical. It is pure nonsense.
Nope!

30 generations and 900 years later is when the population rate sky rockets. It only took 300 years to go from millions to billions in the current sin cursed earth. Remove sin, death, and war and those resurrected millions will have trillions of offspring. No one will be concerned about over population, because there will be no crime or violence for 1000 years.

Those on the earth are not glorified. The church in Paradise is glorified. Where does it claim in Revelation 20:4-6, those beheaded are glorified? For at least the last 4000 years all humans could do is just conquer, kill or enslave people. All we have really known is war and conquest.
 
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Timtofly

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And where exactly is Jerusalem mentioned in Revelation 20? You have sidestepped that to add to the list of avoided questions you have to ducked.
They rule and reign with Christ. Do you have a better city to rule from? What is the "beloved city"?
 
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Timtofly

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Are you serious? The text says this is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged” and you try to argue "this is the time the living unrighteous are judged." This is typical of how you try to make the Scriptures say the opposite to what they say. You make the judgment of all the dead the judgment of the living. That is ridiculous. You then add another clause to Scripture to support your false teaching - by restricting it to the living unrighteous. This is messed up. You are (once again) fighting with the Bible.
They are dead spiritually. The quick and dead are not the physically alive or physically dead. They are the righteous in Christ quickened. Or the spiritually dead outside of Christ.

You are the one mixing your metaphors up.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Nope!

30 generations and 900 years later is when the population rate sky rockets. It only took 300 years to go from millions to billions in the current sin cursed earth. Remove sin, death, and war and those resurrected millions will have trillions of offspring. No one will be concerned about over population, because there will be no crime or violence for 1000 years.

Those on the earth are not glorified. The church in Paradise is glorified. Where does it claim in Revelation 20:4-6, those beheaded are glorified? For at least the last 4000 years all humans could do is just conquer, kill or enslave people. All we have really known is war and conquest.

The plot thickens.

You previously told us that Gog and Magog are the redeemed dead who are "beheaded for not taking the mark" who populate your sin-cursed death-blighted corrupt millennial earth. Obviously, these are glorified saints! They have resurrected bodies. Now you are telling us that Gog and Magog are the "trillions of offspring" from those "beheaded for not taking the mark" that somehow procreate in their resurrected bodies.

Please set the record straight: are Gog and Magog the redeemed dead who are "beheaded for not taking the mark" and their offspring?

Where are you getting your info from? Where is your Scripture that teaches this?

What is more, you are saying that there are 2 types of resurrected believer that are separated at the second coming and have 2 different homes - (1) glorified believers in Paradise (the Church) and (2) those who are "beheaded for not taking the mark" who populate your sin-cursed death-blighted corrupt millennial earth?
 
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sovereigngrace

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They are dead spiritually. The quick and dead are not the physically alive or physically dead. They are the righteous in Christ quickened. Or the spiritually dead outside of Christ.

You are the one mixing your metaphors up.

Not so, quite the opposite. You are! Anything that interferes with your teaching is rewritten to fit your narrative. All sensible commentators acknowledge the meaning of description and the meaning of the original Greek.

The word zaō in the Greek simply means to live.
The word nekros in the Greek simply means dead and refers to a corpse.

Again: the text says this is “the time of the dead [Gr. nekros], that they should be judged” and you try to argue "this is the time the living unrighteous are judged."

What is more, these are judged at the second coming, not 1000 years+ later as you first claimed.
 
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sovereigngrace

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They rule and reign with Christ. Do you have a better city to rule from? What is the "beloved city"?

Revelation 11:8 explicitly states, the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”

This description was definitely not intended to be a commendation of Jerusalem but to describe it for exactly what it was/is. Many modern pro-Israel commentators today would probably throw the charge of anti-Semitic at such a charge, however, this charge comes from Christ.

Of course, this portrayal is in full keeping with what Paul taught of the earthly Jerusalem in Galatians 4:22-31, where he said, “For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”

We see the two Jerusalems compared and contrasted here, representing two different distinct peoples – the saved and the lost. The earthly city is a symbol of bondage, whereas the heavenly city is used as a picture of freedom. Unfortunately, Premils concentrate their eyes upon the wrong Jerusalem and elevate the wrong Israel. Many today have their eyes on the wrong Jerusalem and places hopes upon it that are in clear conflict with Scripture. They seem to forget, the old temporal earthly type has been replaced by the new heavenly eternal reality.
 
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sovereigngrace

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They are dead spiritually. The quick and dead are not the physically alive or physically dead. They are the righteous in Christ quickened. Or the spiritually dead outside of Christ.

You are the one mixing your metaphors up.

It doesn't matter whichever way you twist it, it still says the same thing. All mankind is judged when Jesus comes (“the righteous in Christ” or “the spiritually dead outside of Christ”). Mankind is found in one of these 2 camps.

This contradicts your previous statement:

The dead only stand in judgment once. They only stand before the GWT once. If you claim they are called out of their graves, obviously they do come out of the sea, sheol, and even Death, but as dead. The dead remain physically dead, and end up in the Lake of Fire dead dead, or twice dead.
 
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Timtofly

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The plot thickens.

You previously told us that Gog and Magog are the redeemed dead who are "beheaded for not taking the mark" who populate your sin-cursed death-blighted corrupt millennial earth. Obviously, these are glorified saints! They have resurrected bodies. Now you are telling us that Gog and Magog are the "trillions of offspring" from those "beheaded for not taking the mark" that somehow procreate in their resurrected bodies.

Please set the record straight: are Gog and Magog the redeemed dead who are "beheaded for not taking the mark" and their offspring?

Where are you getting your info from? Where is your Scripture that teaches this?

What is more, you are saying that there are 2 types of resurrected believer that are separated at the second coming and have 2 different homes - (1) glorified believers in Paradise (the Church) and (2) those who are "beheaded for not taking the mark" who populate your sin-cursed death-blighted corrupt millennial earth?
I have always stated that Gog Magog are the offspring of those resurrected.

That is what happens on earth when humans multiply and fill the earth. They have offspring. After 1000 years, lots of offspring. Read Genesis 5

"And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:"

This is repeated over and over again. They did not stop having offspring the first try. They had offspring for all the years they lived. They begat sons and daughters for the time listed.

In the 1000 year reign of Christ, they never die, so they have offspring for the whole 1000 years. Their offspring have offspring for hundreds of years. 30 generations of offspring having offspring. That is how to do multiplication to fill the earth.

Then Satan comes along and probably convinces them overpopulation will destroy the earth. Let's get rid of tens of billions. Satan does not let them know it is the ones protesting that get consumed by fire. Not a very compelling speech:

"Join me and you will be consumed by fire from heaven."

Obviously he lies to them.
 
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Timtofly

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LOL. Anything in Scripture that exposes your theories is immediately dismissed. Isn't that convenient?
What was dismissed?

The majority of your replies have been condescending dismissive nonsense.
 
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Timtofly

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Not so, quite the opposite. You are! Anything that interferes with your teaching is rewritten to fit your narrative. All sensible commentators acknowledge the meaning of description and the meaning of the original Greek.

The word zaō in the Greek simply means to live.
The word nekros in the Greek simply means dead and refers to a corpse.

Again: the text says this is “the time of the dead [Gr. nekros], that they should be judged” and you try to argue "this is the time the living unrighteous are judged."

What is more, these are judged at the second coming, not 1000 years+ later as you first claimed.
God sees dead people. Do you argue with that? If they are not in Christ, they are dead. Dead is how God sees them. You are literally a dead corpse, filthy rags to God, no? If you crucify the flesh daily, what other word would be used for that corpse?
 
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sovereigngrace

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I have always stated that Gog Magog are the offspring of those resurrected.

That is what happens on earth when humans multiply and fill the earth. They have offspring. After 1000 years, lots of offspring. Read Genesis 5

"And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:"

This is repeated over and over again. They did not stop having offspring the first try. They had offspring for all the years they lived. They begat sons and daughters for the time listed.

In the 1000 year reign of Christ, they never die, so they have offspring for the whole 1000 years. Their offspring have offspring for hundreds of years. 30 generations of offspring having offspring. That is how to do multiplication to fill the earth.

Then Satan comes along and probably convinces them overpopulation will destroy the earth. Let's get rid of tens of billions. Satan does not let them know it is the ones protesting that get consumed by fire. Not a very compelling speech:

"Join me and you will be consumed by fire from heaven."

Obviously he lies to them.

There was no one resurrected in Genesis procreating. No one defeated the grave until Jesus did at the first resurrection. This is a non-sensical, absurd and irrelevant comparison. How do resurrected immortal and incorruptible people procreate? Where does Scripture teach this?
 
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sovereigngrace

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God sees dead people. Do you argue with that? If they are not in Christ, they are dead. Dead is how God sees them. You are literally a dead corpse, filthy rags to God, no? If you crucify the flesh daily, what other word would be used for that corpse?

It doesn't matter whichever way you twist it, it still says the same thing. All mankind is judged when Jesus comes (“the righteous in Christ” or “the spiritually dead outside of Christ”). Mankind is found in one of these 2 camps.
 
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Timtofly

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Revelation 11:8 explicitly states, the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”

This description was definitely not intended to be a commendation of Jerusalem but to describe it for exactly what it was/is. Many modern pro-Israel commentators today would probably throw the charge of anti-Semitic at such a charge, however, this charge comes from Christ.

Of course, this portrayal is in full keeping with what Paul taught of the earthly Jerusalem in Galatians 4:22-31, where he said, “For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”

We see the two Jerusalems compared and contrasted here, representing two different distinct peoples – the saved and the lost. The earthly city is a symbol of bondage, whereas the heavenly city is used as a picture of freedom. Unfortunately, Premils concentrate their eyes upon the wrong Jerusalem and elevate the wrong Israel. Many today have their eyes on the wrong Jerusalem and places hopes upon it that are in clear conflict with Scripture. They seem to forget, the old temporal earthly type has been replaced by the new heavenly eternal reality.
So you change the topic?

What is the answer based on a future 1000 years?

I already know the difference between living on earth and living in Paradise. In fact I hold they are currently enjoying permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They are experiencing the fullness of Paradise. Unlike souls literally "floating" around heaven, or under a literal alter. There is a reality behind the symbolism.

Pretending the reality of the here and now replaces a whole chapter in the book of Revelation, is based on human opinion known as recapitulation. I am not having a discussion about the here and now, even though you are right about the here and now. The reality is the future after the Second Coming. You have yet to convince me, God will never honor the promises made in Daniel 9:24. The 70 weeks are not over until the Second Coming. So according to you, the promises of the 70 weeks do not even apply to current reality. They only apply to the NHNE. Then it will not even matter. The end of the 70 weeks would be the end of time, literally.
 
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