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SDA Basic Belief 27: God Will Give the Earth to Satan’s Angels

Adventist Dissident

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What are the doctrinal differences between your version of SDA and the other SDA's in the thread?
1. the 1000 year on earth. Sabbath as a sign of that
2. Soul sleep & conditional immortality - Scripture teaches there is a soul and for the person who accepts Christ the soul Goes to heaven upon death and that Christ brings it back with him. For the unbeliever it perishes and Goes to sleep, in an unconcious state.
3. the 2300 day ending in 1844 - this conclusion can not be sustained by the current method. A new method must be found, new answers must be looked for. some new answers are currently being discovered
4.Last Generation Theology - is a Lie - and needs to be discarded.
5. Advent/Rapture : Church goes to heaven to the marriage supper of the lamb and then returns to the earth for the 1000 year reign.
6. Sunday law : I have found a better way to explain it.
7. Sanctuary doctrine: I take G.K. Beal's view the Garden of Eden = Holy place = Church = Garden of Eden
8. Perfection: not possible this side of heaven. not possible apart from union with Christ.

That is all i can thing of right now.
 
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tall73

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Nothing there indicates this is not on Earth - everything there seems to have immediate access to Earth.

As even your own summary noted they impact things when they come out of the pit. Things comes up from the abyss, and then have access to the earth.

My point was that we see Earth desolated for that 1000 years and saints taken to haven so as Rev 20 says that leaves satan in a condition with no access to "the nations" here on Earth. Give it any name you like. It's the same point.

Your point was to change something already described, as the abyss was a pit that held things.

Now I already stated that your view that the earth is desolate is not dependent on the definition of the abysss. But that is why it makes even less sense that you have to redefine the already spelled out abyss that was present in the earlier texts. Except of course that you want to defend the Adventist position which ignores the earlier context.

It was described as a pit, that things come out of, that has a key, etc. And now he is bound in the abyss, there is seen again a key, he is thrown into the abyss, and it is sealed over him. This is still talking about the same pit described in Rev. 9, 11, 17, etc.

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
 
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tall73

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In "that part" of the chapter..



Which is pretty much a "bust" for the idea that in the vs 23-26 context "people are still there"



I already show how this works as in the example for Zech 9 where vs 10 is 'immediately following" vs 9.

Bob, it is not a new context in this case because it goes on to say "for thus..." which is related to the verses immediately before.

He looks and sees no humans and the cities destroyed because it goes on to say that they fled to hide and left the cities at the approach of the horseman, etc.

Jer 4:23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, and all the hills moved to and fro.
Jer 4:25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, and all the birds of the air had fled.
Jer 4:26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a desert, and all its cities were laid in ruins before the LORD, before his fierce anger.
Jer 4:27 For thus says the LORD, “The whole land shall be a desolation; yet I will not make a full end.
Jer 4:28 “For this the earth shall mourn, and the heavens above be dark; for I have spoken; I have purposed; I have not relented, nor will I turn back.”
Jer 4:29 At the noise of horseman and archer every city takes to flight; they enter thickets; they climb among rocks; all the cities are forsaken, and no man dwells in them.


 
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tall73

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In no second coming passage is there a global slaughter of mortal people.

How do you interpret the following?

2Th 1:6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Can you explain the tradition view and the newer view?
the traditional way:
1. assume the Catholic Church as the Anti-Christ or the Beast from Rev with no explination
2. link it to Daniel 7 and the little horn that speaks blasphemous things, and changes God times and Laws.
3. show Catholic Church changed the Sabbath.
4. Assume Sunday came from the pagans and is apostasy.
5. pridict the Catholic church with the help of the Protestants will gain political power and force people to worship a false version of God. Thus provoking the God and recieving the mark of the beast.

That is the traditional method in a nut shell
the traditional view does not doa good job at identifying 666, they use numbers and language to draw that conclusion. well it dose not work. the new view takes a clear Biblical-Theology approach.

the new view

1. uses 666 to identify the beast.
2. OT: 666 , 3 time 2x with Solomon is Kings and 2nd Chron & 1 time with tribe in. Ezra
3. show that Solomon is God's man, his represenative
4. God rep disobeys God by breaking his laws in order to obtain the blessing promised by God.
5. show Solomon linked himself to worldly kings in order to be wealthy(prosper)
6 Show the Catholic Church is God represenative
7. Show that the Catholic Church linked itself polotically to the kings of the world
8. So the Catholic Church promotes breaking the commandments
9. Show that the Catholicis still the same and is trying to do it again.
10. thus provoking God and recieving the mark of the beast
 
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ewq1938

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How do you interpret the following?

2Th 1:6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.


Do you see this as on the day of His coming, or after a time of judgment?


A bit of both. IMO verse 9 is parenthetical, a statement outside of the surrounding context. The rest is the second coming. Still not a global slaughter
 
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The Liturgist

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Not deleted but fulfilled and replaced with something even greater.


Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The Sabbath was one of many things that were shadows of things to come which means they would be fulfilled and replaced with something much greater.

Absolutely. This is an essential component of the Gospel. @ewq1938 and I come from very different approaches to theology, and so when we agree, its a bit like when the premillennial dispensationalist commentary in my KJV study bible agrees with my Lutheran Study Bible or my Orthodox Study Bible, meaning that this is the prevailing interpretation.
 
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The Liturgist

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the new view

1. uses 666 to identify the beast.
2. OT: 666 , 3 time 2x with Solomon is Kings and 2nd Chron & 1 time with tribe in. Ezra
3. show that Solomon is God's man, his represenative
4. God rep disobeys God by breaking his laws in order to obtain the blessing promised by God.
5. Show that the Catholic Church did this.
6. Show that the Catholic is trying to do it again.

Are these your differences?

I would propose that to avoid anti-Catholicism, you make a distinction between the Roman Catholic Church after the tenth century, when it went into schism with the Eastern Orthodox over papal infallibility, then say it fixed the problem in response to the Protestant reformation, but now it is at risk of happening again. If you adopted that approach, you could easily win over traditionalist Catholics who are troubled by many decisions made by Pope Francis. Especially if you permitted the traditional Latin mass.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Are these your differences?

I would propose that to avoid anti-Catholicism, you make a distinction between the Roman Catholic Church after the tenth century, when it went into schism with the Eastern Orthodox over papal infallibility, then say it fixed the problem in response to the Protestant reformation, but now it is at risk of happening again. If you adopted that approach, you could easily win over traditionalist Catholics who are troubled by many decisions made by Pope Francis. Especially if you permitted the traditional Latin mass.
the differences are what I have come up with. since I researched the new view i would say they are what I have observed.

As far as the problems inside the Catholic Church I am not aware of them and do not understand them. a little more explination would be helpful.

As far as the time period we would say that the corruption started at Constantine, but really devloped from 508 ad to 1798 ad with the fulfillment of the 1290 prophecy of Daniel 12. that is a hard view of the Catholic chruch, the schism is the result of that absloute power of the RCC. it's desire to set its self up and rule the world. Augustine's view guides Catholic teaching and it's desire to regain Jerusalem and rule from there as the go between between God and man. in other words God won't bless you and you can't prosper unless you go through us. This is Daneil 11. 40-45
 
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SabbathBlessings

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What are the doctrinal differences between your version of SDA and the other SDA's in the thread?
This what what SDA’s believe when they accept membership.

What do Seventh Day Adventists Really Believe? - Adventist.org

We can’t control when others go away from these beliefs systems but yet want to still be called SDA, but I do see how that can be confusing for non-Adventists with the varying beliefs, which is why its important to look for official church statements like I posted above and not go off of individuals.
 
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The Liturgist

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the differences are what I have come up with. since I researched the new view i would say they are what I have observed.

As far as the problems inside the Catholic Church I am not aware of them and do not understand them. a little more explination would be helpful.

As far as the time period we would say that the corruption started at Constantine, but really devloped from 508 ad to 1798 ad with the fulfillment of the 1290 prophecy of Daniel 12. that is a hard view of the Catholic chruch, the schism is the result of that absloute power of the RCC. it's desire to set its self up and rule the world. Augustine's view guides Catholic teaching and it's desire to regain Jerusalem and rule from there as the go between between God and man. in other words God won't bless you and you can't prosper unless you go through us. This is Daneil 11. 40-45

So the problems inside the Catholic Church is that Pope Francis has really upset many of my traditional Catholic friends, like @Michie , @Fenwick and @chevyontheriver , first by putting a traditionalist Franciscan order in Italy that celebrated the Traditional Latin Mass under review, which meant that members of the order could not visit their families, unless they resigned, and this process took a very long time. Then there was Amoris Laetitia, which relaxed the firm stance on sexual morality that had characterized Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. Then, there was the Amazonian synod, which was extremely controversial, and I will let my Catholic friends if they are interested provide the details. Now, he has reversed the directives of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, Ecclesia Dei and Summorum Pontificum respectively, which combined with new regulations from the Vatican organization in charge of worship, has the effect of banning the traditional Latin mass in nearly all circumstances. This is a situation that is worse than anything experienced by traditional Catholics since the 1970s.

Now, regarding the 508-1798 timeline, one of the main reasons why I don’t accept the writing of EGW is that timeline doesn’t make sense. If she shifted it about 110 years so as to begin after the death of Pope Gregory the Great, who was a pious Christian, universally venerated by Catholics and Eastern Orthodox to this day, it would correspond with the beginning of political interference in the Roman episcopate which led to the Papal States, and the end of the Papal States. While I wish more churches had sovereign territory for their headquarters, the Papal States, in my opinion, with apologies to my Roman Catholic friends, were not well-governed either in terms of civil government or military defense, with Rome being sacked in 1520 by German mercenaries hired by Leo X to defend it. Excessive reliance on mercenaries caused problems, and the Papal States were continually reliant on ever shifting alliances with other Italian duchies and city states, such as Florence, Milan and Venice, and also with Spain, France and the Holy Roman Empire, for support.

However, even Rome during this period is not convincing as a supervillain, which it is made out to be in The Great Controversy, unless we consider converting the Aztecs and Incas to Christianity and ending human sacrifice religion in Latin America, and also spreading the Gospel to Scandinavia, ending the barbaric Nordic Paganism, and parts of Eastern Europe, where together with Eastern Orthodoxy, when the churches were still in communion, they successfully worked to convert the practitioners of the horrifying Pagan religion known as Rodnovery, and centuries later, Catholic missionaries converted the Filipinos and many Africans, as well as Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis outside of Malankara, where Christianity had been established since the martyrdom of the apostle Thomas in 53 AD, but due to Hindu persecution, expansion outside of the Malabar Coast was not possible prior to European colonization. And the Catholics who attempted to convert the Japanese were brutally martyred, as well as many who worked in China.

If you really want to reform Adventism, I would drop criticism of Roman Catholicism, and refocus the 1290 years on Islam. Islam has resulted in so many severe persecutions, in which tens of millions of Christians - Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant and Adventist, have been brutally butchered. Islam seeks to prohibit Saturday worship; for Islam Friday is the Holy Day, and Thursday and Friday comprise the Muslim holy week. In fact, Sunday and Saturday worship does not really happen in Oman, the UAE, Qatar, and other Gulf states where Christians expatriates work (largely because the profits of oil production are paid to the Gulf Arabs in something like a universal income scheme, disincentivizing them from working; this trend is only been reversed in recent years, but even now, expats from Christian countries, especially English speaking countries like the US, Australia, the UK, Canada and New Zealand, perform the majority of white collar jobs.

Blue collar jobs are largely performed by Indian migrants, some of them Christian, who are treated like dirt, especially if they are Christian.

Actually, the video advertising Oman for Western expatriates openly declares the country’s religious tolerance, showing various Christian denominations worshipping on Friday.

Also, almost since the inception of Islam, Babylon, the actual city (which relocated a short distance due to the shifting of the Euphrates, becoming Seleucia-Cstesiphon, but was still popularly called Babylon, and then the river shifted again, and Baghdad was built partially on top of Babylon), has been under Islamic control since the 7th century.

When we consider the increase in the Islamic population, and the decrease in the Roman Catholic population, as well as the good things Rome did for Christianity during the 1290 years outlined by EGW as being a period of evil dominion by it, which I enumerated above, it just seems to me much more likely that if those 1290 years are interpreted literally, which itself seems dubious, given the large amount of Gematria numeric encoding in scriptural prophecy (for example, 666 translates to “Nero Caesar” and the Hellenic form of the name Muhammed, and Nero and Muhammed are each responsible for initiating the two worst genocides of Christianity in history (the Communist persecution was bad, but the Soviet Union and other communist states realized they had to put up with Christianity; only in Albania and North Korea was it completely outlawed, but in Albania, there survived a catacomb church, which combined with Albanian Catholic and Orthodox expatriates, led to Christianity recovering to its former size in Albania in remarkably little time. Also Albanian Christianity has the distinction of two of the most pious Christians of the 20th century being members of it, one being the expatriate Orthodox bishop Fan Noli, and the other being the Albanian Catholic Mother Theresa.

So, 666 translates to Nero Caesar and Maometis, the Greek form of the name Muhammed (compare the remarkably similar Turkish form Mehmet), the initiators of the initial mass persecution of Christians, and the second and bloodiest mass persecution.

I think EGW erred in associating various prophecies of dark futures with the Roman Catholic Church; it was a mistake, because Islam is far more dangerous to Christianity, and it will force Christians to worship on Friday. Not Saturday, in the case of the Adventists, or Sunday, in the case of everyone else.

So if you really want to reform Adventism, and if you are really indifferent to EGW, focus on Islam rather than Roman Catholicism. With the exception of certain sects of Sufi Islam (which appear to be crypto-Christian), Islam has posed a continual threat to Christianity since its inception, and as of the 1915 Turkish genocide against Armenians, Pontic Greeks, and Aramaic-speaking Christians, and indeed, before that, the 12th century genocide of Tamerlane against the Assyrian Church of the East (which at the time was actually larger than the Roman Catholic Church in terms of geographical size and number of adherents) which exterminated all the Christians in China, Tibet, Mongolia and Central Asia, and before that, the 8th and 9th century extermination of all North African Christians west of Egypt, more Christians have received crowns of martyrdom from Muslims than from any other group, including the Roman Empire.
 
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The Liturgist

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Amen! In fact as ChristianityToday pointed out in its Jan 2015 article, the SDA church is the 5th largest Christian denomination in the World - and fastest growing.

And I debunked that claim; the SDA is actually one of the smaller denominations. If we go by international communions, which are denominations spread across multiple countries which are in full communion with each other, at present, The World Methodist Council is the fifth largest denomination. The Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox, the the Anglican Communion, the Lutheran World Federation, the World Methodist Council, the Assemblies of God, the Oriental Orthodox, the Baptist World Alliance, the World Communion of Reformed Churches, and the Calvary Chapel are all larger.

These numbers are not even the total for all Baptist, Reformed, Anglican or Lutheran churches, because there are smaller communions of traditional churches, for example, the Continuing Anglican Communion. If we counted those, the figures would be even more shifted away from the SDA.

Going strictly on the basis of individual churches within these denominations, the Roman Rite of the Roman Catholic Church, the Russian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate), the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church, the Church of Christ in Congo, the Church of England, the Calvary Chapel, and the Assemblies of God in Brazil, are all larger, and the SDA is only slightly larger than the reported membership of the Southern Baptist Convention, which is known to be underreported, because baptists do not include children in their membership statistics; other sources I have read place the SBC as being larger than the SDA, and I consider this highly probable.

These numbers are either self-reported or come from the Pew Research Group, whose periodicals I subscribe to (a hobby of mine is tracking the size of denominations). They can also be verified on various online sources, for example, the Wikipedia articles listing Christian denominations by size, and Protestant denominations by size.

I have not seen the ChristianityToday article; I have not been able to source it so perhaps if @BobRyan posts a link I can ascertain the specific error in their calculation, because clearly, they are either working from a flawed dataset or their statistical methodology is mathematically erroneous.

Also, if I recall there was criticism of the Roman Catholic Church for being the largest. I would think that on that basis, talking about the size of the SDA as a major selling point would be self-contradictory.
 
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BobRyan

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The SDA church is doing just fine.

Amen! In fact as ChristianityToday pointed out in its Jan 2015 article, the SDA church is the 5th largest Christian denomination in the World - and fastest growing.

And I debunked that claim;

Not true at all. You never could prove that ChristianityToday did not make that point. You merely made our own claim that you do not "agree with ChristianityToday" - which is very different from my claim that ChristianityToday did make that statement.

Notice that I don't say "ChristianityToday made xyz claim AND Liturgist agrees with ChristianityToday"

details matter.

I have not seen the ChristianityToday article; I have not been able to source it

That's pretty obvious since you are not aware that this was a statement comparing world wide denominations.

1. Here is how one can "source" Christianitytoday Adventist January 2015... put it in google or bing...

2. Read the actual article before claiming you "debunked it"
Adventists: Can Ben Carson's Church Stay Separatist?

3. read their own statement about its world wide presence back in 2014

"In 2014, for the 10th year in a row, more than 1 million people became Adventists, hitting a record 18.1 million members. Adventism is now the fifth-largest Christian communion worldwide, after Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and the Assemblies of God."

One "wonders" how long someone can claim to have "debunked an article they admit they never read"
 
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BobRyan

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That isn't possible. The pit is in the Earth and satan will be locked inside of it.

Regardless of how far you suppose one can insert Satan in the ground -- you are leaving him "on Earth" even in your view with no access to humans.

Jer 4 and Rev 19 already point out that God arranges the 1000 years so there are "no humans" on Earth for that 1000 years - so regardless of how much dirt you may suppose him to be under during that time - he would still have no access to humans since we have these two irrefutable Bible facts already posted on this area of the forum --

Saints are taken to heaven at the Rev 19 appearing of Chris
Nothing but a "desolate Earth" left after the appearing of Christ
 
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BobRyan

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The section follows right after the other, and similarly relates the effects of the judgment the Lord carried out on the nations at that time. And there are people there.

In "that part" of the chapter..

You pointed out the following:
DESOLATE Earth with hills "moving" and cities left in ruins
Jer 4:
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;

And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,

And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down

Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

Which is pretty much a "bust" for the idea that in the vs 23-26 context "people are still there"

Explain how the above section is separate context

I already show how this works as in the example for Zech 9 where vs 10 is 'immediately following" vs 9.

BTW I already agree that the prophetic texts in the OT occur in chapters that can later switch context to a different point in time as we saw with Zech 9 already.

Zech 9:
9 Rejoice greatly, daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is righteous and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey
.
10 And I will eliminate the chariot from Ephraim
And the horse from Jerusalem;
And the bow of war will be eliminated.
And He will speak peace to the nations;
And His dominion will be from sea to sea,
And from the Euphrates River to the ends of the earth.

a lot of Bible students here will admit that
1. NT writers point out that vs 9 applies to Christ's first coming... palm Sunday
2. But vs 10 events did not happen at Christ's first coming. obviously

Bob, it is not a new context in this case because it goes on to say "for thus..."

"for thus says the Lord" is mentioned in a great many places and does not require that the events describe happen at the same moment.


Zech 9:
9 Rejoice greatly, daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is righteous and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey
.
10 And I will eliminate the chariot from Ephraim
And the horse from Jerusalem;
And the bow of war will be eliminated.
And He will speak peace to the nations;
And His dominion will be from sea to sea,
And from the Euphrates River to the ends of the earth.

a lot of Bible students here will admit that
1. NT writers point out that vs 9 applies to Christ's first coming... palm Sunday
2. But vs 10 events did not happen at Christ's first coming. obviously
 
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The Liturgist

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Amen! In fact as ChristianityToday pointed out in its Jan 2015 article, the SDA church is the 5th largest Christian denomination in the World - and fastest growing.



Not true at all. You never could prove that ChristianityToday did not make that point. You merely made our own claim that you do not "agree with ChristianityToday" - which is very different from my claim that ChristianityToday did make that statement.

Notice that I don't say "ChristianityToday made xyz claim AND Liturgist agrees with ChristianityToday"

details matter.



That's pretty obvious since you are not aware that this was a statement comparing world wide denominations.

1. Here is how one can "source" Christianitytoday Adventist January 2015... put it in google or bing...

2. Read the actual article before claiming you "debunked it"
Adventists: Can Ben Carson's Church Stay Separatist?

3. read their own statement about its world wide presence back in 2014

"In 2014, for the 10th year in a row, more than 1 million people became Adventists, hitting a record 18.1 million members. Adventism is now the fifth-largest Christian communion worldwide, after Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and the Assemblies of God."

One "wonders" how long someone else claim to have "debunked an article they admit they never read"

Firstly, I debunked the claim, not the source for that claim, by using independent data, which is a valid statistical technique (when someone makes a claim, a statistician can always evaluate known reliable data to determine its veracity, without needing to see the data they used for their claim, which is irrelevant, unless one wants to determine how they reached a faulty conclusion, so that’s a bit of a strawman.

That said, on reading the article, their error is immediately apparent and fairly dramatic since it ignores the existence of several Christian communions which are larger than the SDA, including the Oriental Orthodox with 60 million, the Methodist World Federation with 60-80 million, the Baptist World Federation with 40 million, and the Calvary Chapel with 25 million.

Basically, the only way you get to the no. 5 spot is if you pretend those communions do not exist (but I also measured on the basis of denomination), and the raw data I used is available for all to see, on Pew Research and Wikipedia.

As far as the article is concerned, it raises a valid point: the SDA should become more evangelical and less separate. However, neither the author nor the editor did their homework in terms of denominational sizes, given that with the stroke of a pen the author just deleted from existence the communions my friends @ViaCrucis @dzheremi @bekkilyn @hedrick and @Der Alte .
 
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Adventist Dissident

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There is so much to respond to this post. it would take for ever

1. concerning pope francsis, the internal issues seem to be minor, what language to celebrate the mass in, seems juenivile. as far sa the rest of it an article summed up the problem as Francis not being as sophistiated as the previous popes and grounded in reality for being a pastor rather then a theologian.h

If i took your Advice on the Catholic Church, and accepted the reforms, they would neither be Adventist nor Protestant and would cease to be what it is. so no. The 1260, 1290, & 1335 all have major events connected to them if you start them at 508 ad

As far as the Muslims, I believe the Muslims fulfill Rev 9 the locust and are a punishment on the church for it's evil and disobediance. The church is to represent God on earth and the Catholic Church and later the Orthodox Church did not do that, Muslims exist to force obediance to God. they are his laws enforcement agency and the protectors of the Abrahamic Covenant. In other words it is the fault of the the RCC and the Orthodox that the Muslims exist. so go back and obey and the cease to be a problem.
 
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BobRyan

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Firstly, I debunked the claim, not the source for that claim,

you have free will of course and can claim anything you wish.

I point to ChristianityToday's claim about Seventh-day Adventist's growth to the point of being the 5th largest Christian communion world wide since it is an independent source from the Seventh-day Adventist church.

by using independent data, which is a valid statistical technique

I am glad we can agree on something.

Basically, the only way you get to the no. 5 spot is if you pretend those communions do not exist

Turns out - I don't pretend and I do not write for ChristianityToday... If you would like them to change their article -- I suggest you contact them.
 
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