Is the church on earth during the tribulation

[Rachel20]

Maybe you could actually give us the clear Scripture to support Pretrib. Many of us have found it to be a man-made theory. I am sure if you have strong Scripture you would be happy submitting it.

Where in Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7-year tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming of Christ?

There are some good studies on the subject by John Walvoord of the Dallas Theological Seminary. You can access many of his articles on the internet. He also authored multiple books on the subject. I'm not interested in debating this topic for the reason already given. I only posted on this thread because I had the impression the OP might be a new Christian just wanting to be made aware of the different views. I think I was mistaken as it now appears it's more about confirmation of pre-existing view.

 

[jgr]

There are some good studies on the subject by John Walvoord of the Dallas Theological Seminary. You can access many of his articles on the internet. He also authored multiple books on the subject. I'm not interested in debating this topic for the reason already given. I only posted on this thread because I had the impression the OP might be a new Christian just wanting to be made aware of the different views. I think I was mistaken as it now appears it's more about confirmation of pre-existing view.

Walvoord contradicts the more than 17 centuries of recognized Church historical orthodoxy prior to the 19th century.

 

[Rachel20]

Walvoord contradicts the more than 17 centuries of recognized Church historical orthodoxy prior to the 19th century.

And two resurrections contradict the entire Old Testament! Not to mention the two appearances of the Messiah.

 

[jgr]

And two resurrections contradict the entire Old Testament! Not to mention the two appearances of the Messiah.

So are you agreeing or disagreeing with your post #5?

 

[Jamdoc]

The main views - pretrib, midtrib, prewrath, and posttrib - view them separately. Even posttrib. with its almost-simultaneous rapture/2nd coming, see the rapture as occuring first.

actually post trib and pre wrath both see the the Second coming and Rapture to be inseparable.

Now if you want to say we see Revelation 19 as a different event from Revelation 14 or Revelation 6:12-17, then yes.
Pre wrath would say those are 2 different events. However pre wrath will call them both the second coming because a foundation of pre wrath is that the Parousia is more than the arrival, but rather the enduring presence, so the second coming STARTS with the rapture, but also includes Armageddon.

Just like the first coming was not just His birth or even just His arrival in Jerusalem, but included His death, burial, resurrection, all the way up to His ascension. Time passed in His first coming so time will also pass in His second coming.

I don't know of many mid trib.. I've never personally talked to one and have only seen one on these forums. So I don't know what their stance is.

But it's only pre trib that has a hard line of there's the rapture, and then there's the second coming at Revelation 19

Pre trib completely misses Revelation 6 at the 6th seal, and Revelation 14.
Somehow they don't see how Jesus is involved there. I don't understand how they miss Jesus in the pages of Revelation but they do. They only seem to see Him in Revelation 5, and Revelation 19, and some see Him in Revelation 12 (and I wish I could say they all do there too but I've seen some try to claim the man child was a symbol of the church.... )
Post trib sees it but thinks it's just a retelling of the same thing as Revelation 11:15 and Revelation 19. They see ALL appearances of Jesus in Revelation as being Revelation 19 just retold in different ways.
Pre wrath sees duplication of Revelation 6 and Revelation 14, and another duplication between Revelation 11:15, Revelation 16:15, and Revelation 19.. but sees the Revelation 6 and 14 events as being different from Revelation 19 because of the details given are different and character and nature of it is different.

In Revelation 6 and 14, it's the beginning of the wrath of God, while Revelation 11:15, Revelation 16:15, and Revelation 19 are all at the end of the wrath of God.

Pre trib will see Matthew 24:29-31 as being the same as Revelation 19 even though they have nothing alike whatsoever.... but rather Revelation 6 is most like Matthew 24.

 

[sovereigngrace]

There are some good studies on the subject by John Walvoord of the Dallas Theological Seminary. You can access many of his articles on the internet. He also authored multiple books on the subject. I'm not interested in debating this topic for the reason already given. I only posted on this thread because I had the impression the OP might be a new Christian just wanting to be made aware of the different views. I think I was mistaken as it now appears it's more about confirmation of pre-existing view.

I wasn't expecting you to furnish me with hard Scripture, because Pretrib does not have that. Walvoord has been repeatedly refuted in regards to his teaching. You obviously have no Scripture to bring to the table. Instead of pointing us to the inspired text you point us to man That is Pretrib in a nutshell. That is classic Pretrib. I recommend you note the climactic detail pertaining to the coming of Christ which forbids Pretrib.

 

[Rachel20]

I wasn't expecting you to furnish me with hard Scripture, because Pretrib does not have that. Walvoord has been repeatedly refuted in regards to his teaching. You obviously have no Scripture to bring to the table. Instead of pointing us to the inspired text you point us to man That is Pretrib in a nutshell. That is classic Pretrib. I recommend you note the climactic detail pertaining to the coming of Christ which forbids Pretrib.

If you're sincere, I'll have that debate with you. But the moment it becomes argumentative or insulting, I'm out. I have no interest in converting anyone to pretrib, so have nothing to gain in exchange for the time I'll be putting into it.

I suggest you start a new OP and lay down the ground rules for debate.

 

[sovereigngrace]

If you're sincere, I'll have that debate with you. But the moment it becomes argumentative or insulting, I'm out. I have no interest in converting anyone to pretrib, so have nothing to gain in exchange for the time I'll be putting into it.

I suggest you start a new OP and lay down the ground rules for debate.

Ok. Sounds good. I will start an Op.

 

[sovereigngrace]

If you're sincere, I'll have that debate with you. But the moment it becomes argumentative or insulting, I'm out. I have no interest in converting anyone to pretrib, so have nothing to gain in exchange for the time I'll be putting into it.

I suggest you start a new OP and lay down the ground rules for debate.

Ok, here is the link. Let's start a discussion.

Amil or Pretrib - which is biblical?

 

[JulieB67]

And I believe scripture indicates that Paul believed in the imminency of the rapture, but not the second coming. In fact, it's for this very reason that some top Biblical text scholars view 2 Thess as a forgery! They fail to take into account that Paul may have viewed the rapture as distinct in timing from the second coming that occurs at the end of the GT.

I know you're not up for a debate but just wanted to say I was once too a pretribber but after much study did not find it biblical at all.

And I believe scripture indicates that Paul believed in the imminency of the rapture

Upon my study when I never saw any scripture that would indicate imminency. Paul was totally clear in all his teachings that Christ returns at the last trump (farthest out in the Greek) which is the 7th and trump of God. He gave out warnings very much the same way Christ did as well. They say do not be deceived by any means on this subject. It's very important.

And Paul names the very event on which we gather back to him. Remember, there are no chapters in the manuscripts so we have to continue reading to not lose context,

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."
I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

This is the very same day he talks about in 2nd Thes.

And then of course later on chapter 5 he says that it only comes as a thief for those "not watching".

 

[Jamdoc]

I know you're not up for a debate but just wanted to say I was once too a pretribber but after much study did not find it biblical at all.



Upon my study when I never saw any scripture that would indicate imminency. Paul was totally clear in all his teachings that Christ returns at the last trump (farthest out in the Greek) which is the 7th and trump of God. He gave out warnings very much the same way Christ did as well. They say do not be deceived by any means on this subject. It's very important.

And Paul names the very event on which we gather back to him. Remember, there are no chapters in the manuscripts so we have to continue reading to not lose context,

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."
I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

This is the very same day he talks about in 2nd Thes.

And then of course later on chapter 5 he says that it only comes as a thief for those "not watching".

Paul was not referring to a book that wouldn't be written for decades yet and just telling the Corinthians to wait for John to write Revelation...
In Paul's day all they really had was the old testament, and maybe the gospel account of Matthew.

But let's look at some details within Revelation shall we?

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Jesus returns in the clouds, and 2 harvests are performed. One.. the details are not given what happens to them, the second, are put through the wrath of God.
But importantly... Jesus is there before the wrath of God begins.

Revelation 15

1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

So the 7 last plagues, the vials.. are the wrath of God. This is clear... and in case it's not clear enough, we have Revelation 16:1 saying the same thing

Revelation 16

1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

So there's no way of getting around that and saying the vials are just tribulation, they're not the wrath of God.

Now continuing

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Here He comes at the END of the vials, which are the wrath of God.

So.. you have an appearance before the wrath of God, and an appearance at the end of the wrath of God, or you have a contradiction if you try to claim they are the same thing.

 

[JulieB67]

Paul was not referring to a book that wouldn't be written for decades yet and just telling the Corinthians to wait for John to write Revelation...

Paul was a second witness to Christ's teachings that his return would be after the tribulation. We aren't privy to every conversation, teachings etc that went on in the NT and that includes Paul. We only have select letters/manuscripts. We are privy to this fact though:

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Telling us that the Thessalonians themselves were already taught the times and the seasons to look for. Probably from Paul at another time.

We can also ascertain that Paul does himself know that Christ returns at the last trump. Whether or not Revelation had been written or not matters not to that point.

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."


Yes, there are two harvests, but both happen at Christ's return, as well as God's wrath.

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

We don't gather back until the day of the Lord, Paul just taught this in 1sThes 4:17 -5:5
Second confirmation 2nd Thes

But we see in verse two that with the Day of the Lord also brings "sudden destruction" that is God's wrath.

 

[Jamdoc]

Paul was a second witness to Christ's teachings that his return would be after the tribulation. We aren't privy to every conversation, teachings etc that went on in the NT and that includes Paul. We only have select letters/manuscripts. We are privy to this fact though:

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Telling us that the Thessalonians themselves were already taught the times and the seasons to look for. Probably from Paul at another time.

We can also ascertain that Paul does himself know that Christ returns at the last trump. Whether or not Revelation had been written or not matters not to that point.

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."


Yes, there are two harvests, but both happen at Christ's return, as well as God's wrath.

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

We don't gather back until the day of the Lord, Paul just taught this in 1sThes 4:17 -5:5
Second confirmation 2nd Thes

But we see in verse two that with the Day of the Lord also brings "sudden destruction" that is God's wrath.

But He appears before the wrath
and after the wrath.
That's the contradiction if you hold it's the same thing.
Furthermore the 6th seal, people want to be hidden from he who sits on the throne. That is Jesus.
and this appearance happens before the wrath of God, which is declared in Revelation 6:17

Also Revelation 6:12-13, according to Jesus, are happening after the Tribulation.....
but the wrath of God doesn't start until Revelation 6:17.
and the 7th seal is the 7 trumpets, which if you say it's all 1 return at the 7th trumpet
you have another contradiction, of Jesus showing up after Tribulation but before wrath, and showing up at the end of the wrath.

These details do not reconcile in a single appearance because it has timing contradictions.

You have those contradictions
based on the assumption that the second coming is an instantaneous one and done event, and based on the idea that Paul wrote to the Corinthians and expected them to read a book that wouldn't be written for decades, and they wouldn't have access to (as Corinth was not one of the churches John wrote to directly) for perhaps decades still, when the people who Paul was writing to at Corinth would likely have died.. to explain what Paul was talking about.

The Corinthians that Paul was writing to, would have 0 way of knowing what Paul was talking about if it was the 7th trumpet of God's Wrath that Paul was referring to.
Because those 7 trumpets are not referred to anywhere in old testament.

It is a modern day lenses fallacy to make the assumption that Paul was referring to Revelation.

 

[JulieB67]

But He appears before the wrath
and after the wrath.
That's the contradiction if you hold it's the same thing.
Furthermore the 6th seal, people want to be hidden from he who sits on the throne. That is Jesus.
and this appearance happens before the wrath of God, which is declared in Revelation 6:17

Also Revelation 6:12-13, according to Jesus, are happening after the Tribulation.....
but the wrath of God doesn't start until Revelation 6:17.
and the 7th seal is the 7 trumpets, which if you say it's all 1 return at the 7th trumpet
you have another contradiction, of Jesus showing up after Tribulation but before wrath, and showing up at the end of the wrath.

Off to work but wanted to post real quickly,

Many people assume the 7 seals are actions that play out and they are not. The very word means "stamp impressed" Just like some have the seal of God in their foreheads. Having a stamp/signet impressed on us is what the seals mean. It's knowledge we need to impress/seal in our minds of what's going to transpire. First seal being of course being that fake rider on the white horse.

Trumps are have always been a call to action, not seals.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The main views - pretrib, midtrib, prewrath, and posttrib - view them separately. Even posttrib. with its almost-simultaneous rapture/2nd coming, see the rapture as occuring first.

People who believe in post-trib, and probably pre-wrath as well, would say that the rapture is part of the second coming and would not describe the rapture and second coming as entirely different events.

 

[Jamdoc]

Off to work but wanted to post real quickly,

Many people assume the 7 seals are actions that play out and they are not. The very word means "stamp impressed" Just like some have the seal of God in their foreheads. Having a stamp/signet impressed on us is what the seals mean. It's knowledge we need to impress/seal in our minds. First seal being of course being that fake rider on the white horse.

Trumps are have always been a call to action, not seals.

We can agree that the Trumpets represent direct actions by God, where the seals do not.
The seals are things that mankind has always wanted to do, but being sealed, God has restrained the worst of it. Up until the 6th seal, all the events that happen are things that mankind does.
the 6th seal is where God intervenes.

But you still did not address the real contradiction your system has (one has details about Christ coming before the wrath of God, the other details about Christ coming at the end of the wrath of God)

There's just no way to handwave and say they are the same thing.
the 5th trumpet lasts 5 months
there's no way to claim it all happens on the same day, either.

 

[Timtofly]

Ok, here is the link. Let's start a discussion.

Amil or Pretrib - which is biblical?

Ironic that Amil have the Millennium starting pre-trib. The Cross was definitely before the church entered any tribulation.

 

[JulieB67]

We can agree that the Trumpets represent direct actions by God, where the seals do not.
The seals are things that mankind has always wanted to do, but being sealed, God has restrained the worst of it. Up until the 6th seal, all the events that happen are things that mankind does.
the 6th seal is where God intervenes.

But you still did not address the real contradiction your system has (one has details about Christ coming before the wrath of God, the other details about Christ coming at the end of the wrath of God)

There's just no way to handwave and say they are the same thing.
the 5th trumpet lasts 5 months
there's no way to claim it all happens on the same day, either.

Sorry, still not seeing the contradictions. The seals are knowledge of the play by play of what will happen all leading up to the day of the Lord. As for the trumps, we really don't know the complete time span of all but I do know that Christ doesn't return until the 7th. Revelation also is not in chronological order. Especially chapter 12 which is another play by play if you will even going back further into the past.

As for the 5 month period in chapter 9, I'm of the belief that this is our clue to how much the time has been shortened to that Christ aludes to. I know many believe it's 3 years or whatever but Christ says it will be just like in the days of Noah and I believe the time is just one aspect of how it will be like that. He pretty much implied even the elect would be not be saved if the time hadn't been shortened.

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

We can see he is very upset that the time has been shortened.

3 and half years is not a short time where he is concerned especially once he's on earth. 5 months is a very short time.

 

[Jamdoc]

Sorry, still not seeing the contradictions. The seals are knowledge of the play by play of what will happen all leading up to the day of the Lord. As for the trumps, we really don't know the complete time span of all but I do know that Christ doesn't return until the 7th. Revelation also is not in chronological order. Especially chapter 12 which is another play by play if you will even going back further into the past.

As for the 5 month period in chapter 9, I'm of the belief that this is our clue to how much the time has been shortened to that Christ aludes to. I know many believe it's 3 years or whatever but Christ says it will be just like in the days of Noah and I believe the time is just one aspect of how it will be like that. He pretty much implied even the elect would be not be saved if the time hadn't been shortened.

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

We can see he is very upset that the time has been shortened.

3 and half years is not a short time where he is concerned especially once he's on earth. 5 months is a very short time.

I think you went off the rails there trying too hard.

The contradiction is in Revelation 14 vs Revelation 16.
In Revelation 14 Jesus is in the clouds just prior to the wrath of God.
in Revelation 16 Jesus is coming at the end of the wrath of God.

if it is a singlular appearance.
then which is it? and do we declare the other scripture to be wrong?

 

[JulieB67]

The Corinthians that Paul was writing to, would have 0 way of knowing what Paul was talking about if it was the 7th trumpet of God's Wrath that Paul was referring to.
Because those 7 trumpets are not referred to anywhere in old testament.

It is a modern day lenses fallacy to make the assumption that Paul was referring to Revelation.

The thing is like I pointed out in another post, we aren't privy to every discussion or teaching that went on. We are only given samples, etc enough that the Father preserved for us. So we have 0 way of knowing what everything they were taught. But we are privy to the fact that they were indeed taught that Christ returns at the last trump. Which of course we know ourselves is the 7th trump. But it doesn't take away from that fact that the last trump is the 7th.

And what exactly your point about Paul's teachings? He taught that Christ returns at the last trump. By even bringing up that he comes at the last trump, we can assume that there was teachings on the trumps. Again, we are only given Paul's letters. Not his actual teachings within the crowds in person. I'm sure many questions were asked. Why would Paul even bring up "last trump"? Since he does bring up the word "last" I think we can safely assume that the people knew there were more than one. Why would Paul confuse them on this?

Revelation (to reveal) gives us the entire complete picture but to say that no knowledge of the trumps were known before then is a reach.