Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[power1]

You're calling me confused when you are the one who didn't even know what Satan's little season is and you claimed that Jesus doesn't descend from heaven at the rapture even though Paul plainly said that He will? You are clearly the one who is confused.

Since he also has but a short time in the Trib, you need to be clear.

 

[power1]

What are you talking about? You have no proof text. You have zero authority to accuse anyone else of confusion. Present biblical evidence instead of constant personal opinion. This is getting old.

I am talking about you stuffing hundreds of years worth of prophesies into one day.

 

[power1]

What clear refutation are you talking about? You can't claim to have clearly refuted something with just your opinions and no scriptural support.

Well, to start you can prove how all those prophesies including the 1000 years, new earth, etc etc all fit into the day Jesus returns?

 

[power1]

I have Bolded the question above.

According to your rapture beliefs ,are those raptured glorified ?

yes, I think so. How would it not be glorified to have eternal bodies and be with Him where He is forever?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Since he also has but a short time in the Trib, you need to be clear.

I said "little season", not "short time". And I already said that I don't see them as being the same thing. So, with that in mind, why would you not know what I was referring to?

 

[power1]

What are you talking about? When did I say something about ruling out the rapture?

I am talking about the Rapture where Jesus and us meet in the air. That one.
Not the return to earth of Christ.

Again, obviously. But, what you apparently are missing is that the wrath they experience will be global and will result in all of the wicked being killed.

That does not happen in the Tribulation.

So, with all believers having immortal bodies and all the wicked being killed, what mortals does that leave to populate the earth for 1000 years?

No. The untold millions who got saved in that Tribulation are not in spirit bodies! Israel who all get saved are not in spirit bodies. Who knows but that maybe God does not consider some Japanese or folks in some nations that never really heard the gospel as wicked also?

 

[power1]

This is typical of Pretrib. They have plainly no answer to the truth of God's Word which forbids their error so they run to Pretrib websites that also do not have an answer to the sacred text and hide behind their teachers beliefs (who cannot be challenged because their theories are extra-biblical and they forbid debate which might expose their teaching). Your cut-and-pastes exposes the fragility of your position and how you have no answer to the biblical truth presented. No wonder Pretrib is in free-fall today and is getting pummeled all over the internet at the moment. Your constant avoidance and failure to provide any Scripture of evidential worth to support your theory reinforces what we all know - Pretrib is extra-biblical.

So, vague accusations and nothing to say. OK.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Well, to start you can prove how all those prophesies including the 1000 years, new earth, etc etc all fit into the day Jesus returns?

Are you even trying to understand what I believe? When did I ever say that the thousand years fit into the day Jesus returns? I believe the 1000 years as well as Satan's little season precede His return. You clearly have no clue about what Amils believe.

 

[power1]

Where is your supposed future millennium mentioned here? Nowhere.

That all depends when these things happen. Where is a child playing with lions today?

Tribulationsigns totally dismantled and refuted your interpretation of these in a previous post and your dumping of unrelated passages into your so-called future millennium.

My condolences if you actually believed that.
Try to lose gracefully.

 

[power1]

Are you even trying to understand what I believe? When did I ever say that the thousand years fit into the day Jesus returns? I believe the 1000 years as well as Satan's little season precede His return. You clearly have no clue about what Amils believe.

Well do state what you believe. I have answered so many from the few other posters that do say this, I guess you need to be clear how you differ with them.

 

[Timtofly]

That is all mere opinion. Better to quote Scripture, because it negates Premil. In Luke 20:34-36, Jesus basically compares the temporal imperfect state of this present age/world to the glory of the age/world to come. Jesus says: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy (or kataxioō) to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

This couldn’t be any clearer. Whilst the “children of this age marry, and are given in marriage” (according to Christ in Luke 20:34-36), Jesus presents the future age as a glorified place that is earned by those alone who are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” These people are shown to be the glorified saints alone. This could never refer to the unsaved, mortals of any kind, or the nations that come against Jerusalem as some suggest. These would all obviously eventually die. Such people are expressly barred from the age to come. This is speaking about immortal glorified believers only.

Premil has countless heathens populating the new earth in their corrupt mortal bodies. They have all the vice of our day prospering in their millennial age. They have all the sin and debauchery and rebellion of our day continuing in that day. Contrary to what Jesus says, Premil has millennial mortals continuing to “marry, and are given in marriage” – just like “the children of this age.” They render millions of unregenerate unsaved worthy to inherit the new earth. They are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” However, the words of Christ negate such a belief.

To argue that the age to come is not the Cross is ignoring the age Israel was in when Jesus gave His answer.

If you argue your own logic, you would be saying the age after the age to come. The age to come was the age that started at the Cross, not the one that starts at the Second Coming.

If the Cross was not the age to come, which age after which resurrection? Jesus was explaining Paradise was when they would be like the angels, and no procreation. That does not literally mean they had no physical bodies. That means they were no longer genetically disposed, since God separating Adam into Eve, literally changed procreation. You may or may not agree, but God could have provided two people at the start of the Garden, instead of one and then creating a woman from Adam, or instead of introducing a female not taken from Adam.

Not sure how one can resolve the contradiction between day 6 and when God later put Adam to sleep. I guess it is another one of those "post" and "pre" arguments. There were males and females on day six. Eve came months later, or years later, or even 1000 years later. We just do not know how much time actually passed between Day 6, and the post Garden creation of Eve, much later in history, when Eve was taken from Adam.

So the age to come, ie the Cross, and Paradise put humans physically back to the point Adam was in before he "met Eve". At least after physical death, and bodily resurrection. All we know is that it will be different from present biology, even though they were expecting Paradise or the resurrection to be the same ole same ole. Paul declares a permanent incorruptible physical body not made by human "hands" (current biological genetics).

Certainly the coming 1000 years after the Resurrection in Revelation 20:4 will not be the same nor the same as Jesus explained Paradise after the Cross. Yes, all those from the OT (the age they all were in when the question was asked and answered) have experienced that next age in Paradise. The rest of the dead were not resurrected, and are still waiting 1991 years later. So your age to come is not a future event, not even post Second Coming. Your example is not even about Revelation 20. You are forcing your theology into Revelation 20, and not even a compatible explanation. They have not had babies in Paradise. They will have babies in the coming Millennium. The last time I checked, they have an estimate on the population, but no estimate on the sand of the sea shore. For all we know, there could be trillions of babies in the age to come, because your age to come started 1991 years ago. The next age to come does have procreation and they are not like the angels. Because Jesus' answer and that age to come was already fulfilled. Another reason Revelation 20 is not about the Here and Now. Even though your "age to come" is the here and now, only in Paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

You deny repeated NT truth here, and avoid the other evidence that exposes Pretrib. That is because there is nothing here about some called future rapture followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming. There is nothing!

Why do you avoid the $64,000,000 question? Where does it say the Church is removed at or before Rev 4?

Where in Revelation does it mention a Second Coming at all? Or the earth being burned up? Or the judgment seat of Christ?

 

[Timtofly]

Using Pretrib logic a large portion of the entire New Testament doesn't apply to the church today.

Using first century logic does not either. I doubt that is really a good point to base one's ideology on.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So, vague accusations and nothing to say. OK.

Stop avoiding! Where in Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7-year tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming of Christ?

 

[sovereigngrace]

That all depends when these things happen. Where is a child playing with lions today?

My condolences if you actually believed that.
Try to lose gracefully.

Again, nothing but personal opinion. That is all you have, apart from the Left Behind novels. By your avoidance you are pushing people into the Amil camp.

It symbolically depicts the peace that Christ has introduced through the new covenant and which will be literally realized in the new heavens and new earth. The one thing it does not speak of is some supposed sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted future millennial kingdom.

 

[Timtofly]

This totally demolishes Pretrib. Your reasoning does stand up to scrutiny.

The reality is: this 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.

Lacunza wrote this book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible, as your avoidance has proved. You have zero biblical evidence, only speculations and theories.

The Second Coming is pre-trib, whatever "trib" means. Which definition of Tribulation do we go with? Where is the Second Coming found, because those words are just as fabricated, no?

Rapture and Second Coming are still understandable with out all the other rhetoric of this whole issue of the future.

Who cares what human theology is out there. This rabbit trail is not even on topic. Perhaps the term "pre-tribber" is just a provocation which is against forum rules?

Why not do a study comparing the parables about a harvest leaving angels out, and parables about a harvest that add angels? Perhaps then you can see a harvest of the church, and a harvest post the church harvest?

If the church is harvesting now, when do the angels take over, and why?

 

[power1]

Stop avoiding! Where in Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7-year tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming of Christ?

For the third or fourth time, the Rapture must be before the wrath since we are not going through that

 

[Timtofly]

And where does it say they are gone?

That is an interesting question. Where in Revelation does it state any one is gone? Seems they are always coming or cast out, but never when any one leaves earth. Perhaps context is helpful?

 

[power1]

It symbolically depicts the peace that Christ has introduced through the new covenant and which will be literally realized in the new heavens and new earth. The one thing it does not speak of is some supposed sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted future millennial kingdom.

There we have it. All the child lying with lions, and dying at a hundred years old, and etc etc according to you is just depicting something else. Nice doctrine.

 

[jeffweedaman]

yes, I think so. How would it not be glorified to have eternal bodies and be with Him where He is forever?

Thankyou Power1.

Exactly , when he appears we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:2

Jesus comes in the glory of his Father and we are glorified accordingly in him.

I want you to notice what Paul teaches in his second letter to the Thessalonians regarding the Lords appearing and our Glorification. Paul includes himself in this process... highlighted in red.,


5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed are suffering. 6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—because our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will consider you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, in accordance with the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul also takes part in this glorious event associated with his appearing....and look what happens to the unGodly on that day .

There is only one Glorious appearing to glorify his own.....all who have believed.