Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[sovereigngrace]

I wasn't attacking you at all. What I said to you is not personal against you or against what you believe in any way, shape or form. I was only trying to tell you why I think it's pointless me debating further with you because we are in a stalemate as can now also be seen by the fact that you took my post up personally and as an ad hominem attack.

I know you have never used the words "'the fallacy and preposterous nature' of the whole idea of this literal millennium and 'how unbiblical it is'." I was trying to let you understand that I know and understand where you are coming from and why you don't let it go once you've reached a stalemate with someone. It's obvious (because of your many posts about it) that to you, the whole idea of a millennium is preposterous, and the fact that you post so much about this one topic means that it must upset you that people believe the millennium is literal.

I was being 100% empathetic with your position and belief about the subject and I told you I don't have a problem with the above. I told you I'm 100% okay with what you believe and how you feel about the idea that the millennium is literal. When I said I'm glad you're a believer saved by grace, and I'm thankful for your salvation too I was being 100% honest. I meant what I said. I means: I don't have a problem with what you believe or with the fact that you disagree with me but I don't see the point in us continuing to debate it, because we just argue forever and I'm sure the cows must be really sick of all the noise we make. It makes them want to go back out to pasture.

I was neither insulting you nor trying to insult you. It was not a personal attack or an ad hominem attack. All I was telling you was that I understand how you feel about it and about the fact that people (from your perspective) hang onto this idea of a literal millennium which (from your perspective) is preposterous (because you've stated over and over why you believe it's unbiblical by quoting scriptures over and over which (from your perspective) negates the arguments of Pre-millennialists.. Bad words to choose on my behalf because you took it up personally.

Thanks for your clarification. Appreciate! Blessing!

 

[sovereigngrace]

That is the return when every eye will see Him.

Not the same event

The Rapture only gathers the living and those who died in Christ. That should tell us it is not the same event

Really? At what stage are you going to produce actual Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7-year tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming of Christ? You have been ducking around this throughout this thread. You obviously have nothing. All you have is personal opinion. This is your pattern.

Great, they will be here in the Trib. Count on it.

Never heard of such millennial scoffers.

It actually says they will be suddenly destroyed. But it seems that you have a difficulty at taking Scripture literally!

The destruction and wrath does get total in the end. That doesn't help you.

Again, no Scripture. You're just repeating what you have been taught. The text says total and absolute destruction. There is no one left to end into some so-called 7-year-trib or future thousand years (that enjoys no biblical foundation).

Yes we will be Raptured and that day will have arrived. This is news?

False it tells us when the earth is burned, not the moment He arrives! You made that up. The bible clearly tells us what happens after He arrives. The fire bit is much later

Yes, and then the earth and the wicked are destroyed suddenly. That is what the text says. You reject that. You duck around that.

Scripture? The wicked are all destroyed. Please see here: “the coming of the Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same climactic day. This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

Elsewhere in Scripture, we discover that death is the last, final or end enemy, and that it is defeated at the second coming. Paul confirms the validity of this truth and the finality of that day, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then (or eita or thereupon) cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down (or katargeésee or abolished) all rule and all authority and power.”

The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

Jesus says of His coming in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-12, 2:1-7 shows that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs at “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” It states: “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed [Gr. apokalupsis] from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our ‘gathering together’ [Gr. episunagoge– originating from episunago] unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [rendered “the day of the Lord” elsewhere in the New Testament] is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth (or restraineth) that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (or restraineth) will let, until he be taken ‘out of the way’ [Gr. ek mesos]. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming [Gr. parousia].”

Once again “the coming of our Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same concluding day of time. Paul is encouraging the Church here to remain strong and steadfast as they await the coming of the day of the Lord. This day, that comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night, will catch the wicked unprepared. He tells the Thessalonians not to be “soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us.” This would suggest that there would be times of trial and tribulation to endure before this great climactic event. What is more, it is an approaching event that the Church was to prepare for, because: “the day of the Lord is at hand (or enistemi meaning impending).”

We should carefully note that this is the time when the Church is gathered unto the Lord. The coming (parousia) of the Lord witnesses the gathering of the saints – dead and alive. The dead in Christ are resurrected; the alive in Christ are caught up. The phrase “gathering together” is taken from the Greek word episunagoge proving that the Church isn't raptured until the one final coming of Christ at the day of the Lord.

This is sudden, climactic and totally destructive. It sees God rescuing His elect and destroying the wicked.

 

[jeffweedaman]

The fires that happen then are not global. The new earth and the fire that destroys this earth are at the end of the 1000 years. That will be sudden also!

The Lord himself teaches the when of this earth and heaven will pass away.

Matt 24
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

Lk 21
33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
34 “Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. 36 But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”


Jesus then goes into detail about what happens at his coming and what kind of judgment it is in Matt 25.
It good to listen to the Master.

Rev 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them.

 

[power1]

What are you talking about and who are you talking about? If you mean sovereigngrace, he does not believe the last 7 years before Christ's return is the wrath of God, so I don't know where you're getting that from. You are so terribly confused and I think the reason is that you've never studied these things for yourself and are just sharing what you've been taught. If you studied these things for yourself you'd be able to back up your opinions with scripture. But, you are strongly coming across that you're just reciting what you've been taught and that's it.

post 1951 "Of course it's God's wrath. That isn't what is being debated here"

So if you claim that that period or wrath known as the Tribulation is not God's wrath, prove it.

 

[power1]

Yes, the global sudden destruction that will come down on unbelievers at the second coming of Christ is God's wrath. Why is that something to "admit"? It's obvious.

The issue is before that. The Tribulation. Is that the wrath of God?

It's foolish to think that no one could escape fire coming down upon the entire earth? Really?

Yes. Only the saints of that day will be spared.

Where does Peter indicate that in 2 Peter 3? Where does Paul indicate that in 1 Thessalonians 5? I'm talking about the wrath that comes down when Jesus returns and takes vengeance on His enemies (Matt 24:37-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, 1 Thess 5:2-3, etc.). That will not take years.

I am talking about the wrath in the last years before He comes.

I'm talking about the destruction that Peter talks about in 2 Peter 3 and Paul talks about in 1 Thessalonians 5. What they talked about is global destruction occurring on the day Christ returns.

I think there is a name for those that make the same mistakes over and over and over and over. Anyhow, once again you ignore that fact that a lot happens in that period referred to as the day of the Lord. There is no global destruction until the 1000 years are over. You conflate all events into a few moments of time. I assume that is because the day of the Lord uses the word day, and you thought that meant 12 hours or whatever. Impossible since we know when the earth is burned up and etc.

None of the wicked will survive that and the righteous will all be "changed" and have immortal bodies at that time.

You thought immortals died? No. The folks in the millennium can die.
Once again you are very confused.

 

[power1]

Really? At what stage are you going to produce actual Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7-year tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming of Christ?

We miss the wrath. That is the Tribulation period. That means Rapture. No idea what a third coming is supposed to mean.

It actually says they will be suddenly destroyed. But it seems that you have a difficulty at taking Scripture literally!

Look who it is talking about.

The text says total and absolute destruction

That is at the end of the 1000 years as the Scripture I gave shows, and which you probably knew anyhow.

. There is no one left to end into some so-called 7-year-trib or future thousand years (that enjoys no biblical foundation).

False. There are those who can die at a hundred years old. There are lions, wolves, children, etc. There are nations to rule. Where did you think all these lived, on Mars?

Scripture? The wicked are all destroyed. Please see here: “the coming of the Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same climactic day.

Nope. The day of the Lord is more than just the hour Jesus returns.

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord”

That is a period. A time period in which Jesus returns on one of the days, in that day of the Lord. I hope I don't hear you parrot this again.

as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

The wicked gather to fight Him. They get creamed. Anything else?

Elsewhere in Scripture, we discover that death is the last, final or end enemy, and that it is defeated at the second coming. Paul confirms the validity of this truth and the finality of that day, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then (or eita or thereupon) cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down (or katargeésee or abolished) all rule and all authority and power.”

Of course eternal life means no death. Was there a point to this latest coloured verse spamming?

The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

That does not all happen over lunch break, sorry. These are things that happen in that day. If Jesus killed all life on earth when He returned, how would He restore the saved Israel? How would He rule and who is left to rule?

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

Of course He will rule with a rod of iron then. The wicked who attack saints at the end of that millennium are not put down before most of the people there are even born!

The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

No, it does not say right away. If there was no earth how does He rule it!

Once again “the coming of our Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same concluding day of time. Paul is encouraging the Church here to remain strong and steadfast as they await the coming of the day of the Lord.

That day of the Lord includes more than the few hours when Jesus returns. Stop making the same mistake and spamming verses that don't apply and that you obviously do not begin to comprehend.

This day, that comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night, will catch the wicked unprepared.

Great. And so?

He tells the Thessalonians not to be “soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us.” This would suggest that there would be times of trial and tribulation to endure before this great climactic event. What is more, it is an approaching event that the Church was to prepare for, because: “the day of the Lord is at hand (or enistemi meaning impending).”

That period is impending. Part of that is when We get taken in the air. There are many parts to the day of the Lord. Stop making the same mistake over and over and over.

We should carefully note that this is the time when the Church is gathered unto the Lord. The coming (parousia) of the Lord witnesses the gathering of the saints – dead and alive.

He separates the goats from the sheep. Each get gathered. However when we are gathered in the sir, no wicked are included. You conflate events.

The dead in Christ are resurrected; the alive in Christ are caught up.

At the Rapture the dead in Christ do rise first.

The phrase “gathering together” is taken from the Greek word episunagoge proving that the Church isn't raptured until the one final coming of Christ at the day of the Lord.

That proves nothing.

This is sudden, climactic and totally destructive. It sees God rescuing His elect and destroying the wicked.

It comes suddenly. The total destruction of earth is not suddenly after Jesus returns though. Otherwise no child is there to die at a hundred years old, no one comes to worship at Jerusalem etc.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

disregard

 

[power1]

The Lord himself teaches the when of this earth and heaven will pass away.

Matt 24
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

Heaven and earth will not pass away until after the millennium. The actual day when Jesus will return was not known. The time when heaven and earth passes is known! That is 1000 years after He returns.

Jesus then goes into detail about what happens at his coming and what kind of judgment it is in Matt 25.
It good to listen to the Master.

Rev 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them.

The detail is that this is after the 1000 years and I already gave the verses for that.

 

[power1]

What period known as "the Tribulation" are you talking about exactly? I'm trying to talk about God's wrath that comes down when Jesus returns. Do you have some kind of problem with talking about that? Why are you changing the subject that I was talking about?

Too bad. I am talking about His wrath that is before that and includes that!

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

See, His wrath is in the Tribulation.

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

As we see here, the wrath is also when those at the battle of Armageddon get dealt with

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

We also see that the vials poured out in the Trib are the wrath of God

Revelation 15:7
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

We are delivered from that wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


And here we see that that time when nations come against Israel in the end, that is wrath.

18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.

19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord God: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the Lord.

After Jesus returns, rest assured, no one will be coming up against Israel! So that the wrath of God includes the Tribulation period.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The issue is before that. The Tribulation. Is that the wrath of God?

It depends on what you consider to be "The Tribulation", so what exactly do you consider to be "The Tribulation"? Give me some scripture for once so I can know for sure what you're talking about.

Yes. Only the saints of that day will be spared.

Right and they will be changed to have immortal bodies on that day which your false pre-trib belief prevents you from seeing. That leaves no mortals to populate an earthly millennial kingdom.

I am talking about the wrath in the last years before He comes.

Where does scripture talk about wrath in the last years before He comes?

I think there is a name for those that make the same mistakes over and over and over and over. Anyhow, once again you ignore that fact that a lot happens in that period referred to as the day of the Lord.

Give me scripture to back that up then. How many times do I have to tell you that your opinions are worthless without any scripture to back them up?

There is no global destruction until the 1000 years are over.

I agree. And that is when Christ returns - after the thousand years are over.

You conflate all events into a few moments of time.

Such as? Stop being so vague and give me scripture to back up your claims for once. Or are you not capable of doing that?

I assume that is because the day of the Lord uses the word day, and you thought that meant 12 hours or whatever. Impossible since we know when the earth is burned up and etc.

What else do Peter and Paul say happens on the day of the Lord besides the second coming of Christ and what accompanies that such as the catching up of believers to meet Christ and the destruction of the wicked?

You thought immortals died? No. The folks in the millennium can die.
Once again you are very confused.

You are the most confused person in this thread if you think that I believe that immortals can die. Where in the world did you get that ridiculous idea? I said no such thing. Not even close.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Too bad. I am talking about His wrath that is before that and includes that!

And where is your evidence that the wrath that occurs before the return of Christ lasts for several years? Why do we have to ask you repeatedly to back up your claims with scripture? I can only conclude that you are unable to do so since you still aren't doing that after being asked to do so many times now. It seems that you just believe whatever you've been taught and you've never studied these things for yourself. If you did then you should have no trouble backing them up with scripture.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Heaven and earth will not pass away until after the millennium. The actual day when Jesus will return was not known. The time when heaven and earth passes is known! That is 1000 years after He returns.

So, you don't believe that Satan's little season will happen before heaven and earth pass away? Or did you somehow forget about Satan's little season which says a lot about your (lack of) attention to detail?

 

[Guojing]

All who are saved are in the body of Jesus. They promises of them being gathered to the land after He returns are all over the bible. Why, have you verses that say they won't?

True Israel is "in Christ" but they are not "in the Body of Christ".

 

[power1]

It depends on what you consider to be "The Tribulation", so what exactly do you consider to be "The Tribulation"? Give me some scripture for once so I can know for sure what you're talking about.

The Great Tribulation only starts when the abomination of desolation gets placed in the holy place. However, the whole seven years is a time of wrath also. It simply gets a lot worse as we progress.

Right and they will be changed to have immortal bodies on that day which your false pre-trib belief prevents you from seeing. That leaves no mortals to populate an earthly millennial kingdom.

What day? The kid dies at a hundred. That means they are human. If anything changed they would not die!

Where does scripture talk about wrath in the last years before He comes?

See my last post

I agree. And that is when Christ returns - after the thousand years are over.

?
No. First He has to come to rule for 1000 years before that 1000 years can begin! Elementary.

What else do Peter and Paul say happens on the day of the Lord besides the second coming of Christ and what accompanies that such as the catching up of believers to meet Christ and the destruction of the wicked?

Who cares? We do not get all events of the day of the Lord in a few verses! In those few verses you conflate events as it is!

You are the most confused person in this thread if you think that I believe that immortals can die.

Did you not say there are no humans that die on earth after Jesus returns? Be clear.

 

[power1]

True Israel is "in Christ" but they are not "in the Body of Christ".

Well, if they are in Christ they go up in the air if saved before the Rapture!

 

[power1]

So, you don't believe that Satan's little season will happen before heaven and earth pass away? Or did you somehow forget about Satan's little season which says a lot about your (lack of) attention to detail?

Of course if you mean when he is loosed for a bit after the thousand years. Hopefully you are not conflating that with the time he was cast to earth and had a short time in the last seven years!?

 

[power1]

True Israel is "in Christ" but they are not "in the Body of Christ".

No? So a saved Jew today is...where? Not part of the body of Christ?

 

[Guojing]

Well, if they are in Christ they go up in the air if saved before the Rapture!

The Body of Christ was a mystery that began with the apostle Paul. He is the first member of that Body (1 Timothy 1:16)

But there are others who were in Christ before Paul (Romans 16:7).

So those who are in Christ are not the same as those who are in the Body of Christ.

Only the Body of Christ will be raptured into the heavens. Those who are in Christ belongs to the nation Israel and they will be on the Earth during the millennial reign.

 

[Guojing]

No? So a saved Jew today is...where? Not part of the body of Christ?

A Jew that believes in Paul's gospel of grace now will be in the Body of Christ, like any gentile.

In the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor gentile (Galatians 3:28)

 

[jeffweedaman]

Heaven and earth will not pass away until after the millennium. The actual day when Jesus will return was not known. The time when heaven and earth passes is known! That is 1000 years after He returns.

Your millennium is clearly miss placed, as Jesus didnt guess as to when the H/E pass away. He said it would at his coming and that is clearly after the millennium lol.

[The detail is that this is after the 1000 years and I already gave the verses for that.]

Yes it is after the millennium and you have been furnished with plenty of scriptures by Jesus , Paul and Peter that clearly suggest the millennium must be now. They cannot be wrong so you must be and you need to deal with it , lest you continue to make them look like fools.

God bless.