Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Der Alte]

I too prefer words like refine, purify, bring to fulfillness, make whole again rather than punish because they imply a positive end result. You can punish someone forever but you can't correct or purify someone forever - at some point the correction or purification is achieved and the process comes to an end. All we know about the process is that it is lasting, and that it may be uncomfortable, just like counselling is inevitably painful to some extent while. you're undergoing it.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church from its inception 2000 years +/-, ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible know the meaning of the Greek words in the NT.

EOB Matthew 25 45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”[1]​

Link: [EOB online]

[1] Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 25:45–46). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.

 

[Saint Steven]

I too prefer words like refine, purify, bring to fulfillness, make whole again rather than punish because they imply a positive end result. You can punish someone forever but you can't correct or purify someone forever - at some point the correction or purification is achieved and the process comes to an end. All we know about the process is that it is lasting, and that it may be uncomfortable, just like counselling is inevitably painful to some extent while.you're undergoing it.

Exactly.
And this stands in stark contrast to the pointlessness of ECT. To what end? (no end, obviously) The problem of sin going on forever, without end or resolution. Madness!

 

[Der Alte]

* * *

Exactly. And this stands in stark contrast to the pointlessness of ECT. To what end? (no end, obviously) The problem of sin going on forever, without end or resolution. Madness!

And he huffed and he puffed but he couldn't blow the house down.
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the NT?

EOB Matthew 25 45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”[1]
1cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2o11). The Eastern/Greek orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 25:45-46). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

Link: [EOB online]

 

[Servus]

GIGO. FYI neither Charles nor Andy, his son, Stanley are the be all, end all, authority on the Bible.
Unlike you and other UR-ites I don't just look for something said by someone, somewhere that supports my assumptions/presuppositions I review multiple sources.

Vincent Word Studies Hebrews 10:30​

We know him that hath said (οἴδαμεν γὰρ τὸν εἰπόντα)
The retribution (τιμωρία) is certain, because assured by the word of God in Scripture.
Vengeance (ἐκδίκησις)
An unfortunate translation, since it conveys the idea of vindictiveness which does not reside in the Greek word. It is the full meting out of justice to all parties. The quotation is an adaptation of the lxx of Deu_32:35. The second citation is literally from lxx of Deu_32:36.

Where does that say a born again Christian can lose their salvation?

Robertson Word Pictures in the NT
Hebrews 10:30
We know him that said (oidamen ton eiponta). God lives and is true to his word. He quotes Deu_32:35 (cf. Rom_12:19). For ekdikēsis see Luk_18:7. God is the God of justice. He is patient, but he will punish.
And again (kai palin). Deu_32:36.

Where does that say a born again Christian can lose their salvation?

It seems I often find myself having to ask you, "where's the beef?".

 

[Servus]

Perhaps that combines the healing I suggested and the education @Hmm suggested. ???

I'm not sure. I just thought I'd throw that out there. He used the word "chastisement" in his translation of Matthew 25:46. And indeed according Strong's:

"κόλασιν (kolasin) 2851: correction. Definition: correction. Usage: chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation."

 

[Der Alte]

***

Where does that say a born again Christian can lose their salvation?
Where does that say a born again Christian can lose their salvation?
It seems I often find myself having to ask you, "where's the beef?

".

What does Hebrews say they would be punished for? A sorer punishment than death without mercy. Both sources affirm that those who trampled on the blood of Jesus would receive that sorer punishment than death without mercy. Not just loss of some benefits as Stanley said. You are not seeing because you are not even looking. Should I quote a few more sensible scholars for you to ignore?

 

[Servus]

What does Hebrews say they would be punished for? A sorer punishment than death without mercy. Both sources affirm that those who trampled on the blood of Jesus would receive that sorer punishment than death without mercy. Not just loss of some benefits as Stanley said. You are not seeing because you are not even looking. Should I quote a few more sensible scholars for you to ignore?

The whole "a sorer punishment than death without mercy" bit is all you so far. Neither Vincent nor Robertson back you up on that in what you posted. The fact that I'm not seeing what's not there, does not mean that I'm ignoring what's being said. It means you are seeing things that aren't there. Which is why I often find myself asking you "where's the beef?". Go ahead and find a really good cherry pick. But the source is going to have to say something that matches "sorer punishment than death without mercy" to qualify. And you're going to have to stick with Hebrews 10:30. Sorry if you see that as "cyber bullying" you.

 

[Hmm]

Exactly.
And this stands in stark contrast to the pointlessness of ECT. To what end? (no end, obviously) The problem of sin going on forever, without end or resolution. Madness!

Does the idea of God punishing anyone make sense anyway? Doesn't He forgive us without punishing us first because that was remitted for us on the cross?

Don't we all get a "free pass" on punishment because we're justified by Christ's blood? And as we're all sinful, why won't those who turn to Jesus in the next age receive the same remittance as those who kneel and confess in this age?

Lots of question marks there for some reason but you can treat them as rhetorical if you like!

 

[Servus]

Does the idea of God punishing anyone make sense anyway? Doesn't He forgive us without punishing us first because that was remitted for us on the cross?

Don't we all get a "free pass" on punishment because we're justified by Christ's blood? And as we're all sinful, why won't those who turn to Jesus in the next age receive the same remittance as those who kneel and confess in this age?

Lots of question marks there for some reason but you can treat them as rhetorical if you like!

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12:4-11

 

[Lazarus Short]

The online lexicon I linked to works with the KJV too. You could check to see if a word in the KJV is mistranslated or not.

Well, it doesn't work with my Ubuntu 20.4.

 

[Servus]

Well, it doesn't work with my Ubuntu 20.4.

You might need to switch over to Windows XP.

 

[Hmm]

God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness

That's pretty conclusive, there is discipline, but it's for our own good, that we may share in God's holiness. Which rules out ECT of course because that is not discipline towards this end but mindless punishment for the sake of it.

 

[Servus]

That's pretty conclusive, there is discipline, but it's for our own good, that we may share in God's holiness. Which rules out ECT of course because that is not discipline towards this end but mindless punishment for the sake of it.

Hmm... could be.

 

[Hmm]

Hmm... could be.

Fair enough, we don't know for sure. But we do know whether or not we would still worship God if ECT was a reality. I know I wouldn't. But fortunately I find the scriptual evidence for universal reconciliation overwhelming so I can keep my faith.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm not sure. I just thought I'd throw that out there. He used the word "chastisement" in his translation of Matthew 25:46. And indeed according Strong's:

"κόλασιν (kolasin) 2851: correction. Definition: correction. Usage: chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation."

Yes, I thought it was a great suggestion.
It has a more loving restorative edge to it that simple punishment. More corrective than vindictive. Not sure we have found the perfect word yet, but we are moving in the right direction. Thanks.

We should pull @Shrewd Manager into this. He has quite the impressive vocabulary.

 

[Saint Steven]

Does the idea of God punishing anyone make sense anyway? Doesn't He forgive us without punishing us first because that was remitted for us on the cross?

Don't we all get a "free pass" on punishment because we're justified by Christ's blood? And as we're all sinful, why won't those who turn to Jesus in the next age receive the same remittance as those who kneel and confess in this age?

Lots of question marks there for some reason but you can treat them as rhetorical if you like!

While reading your post I was overtaken by a mental image of a marathon race finish line. Jesus was carrying my unconscious body in his arms across the finish line. He looked as though he had just come down from the cross, yet he was carrying me.

There was no one else in the race. I imagine he put me down and went to get the next one.

 

[Hmm]

Not sure we have found the perfect word yet, but we are moving in the right direction.

How about "redintegrate"

Verb, transitive
to make whole or complete again; restore to a perfect state; renew

Word origin
C15: from Latin redintegrāre to renew, from red- re- + integer complete

We should pull @Shrewd Manager into this. He has quite the impressive vocabulary.

@Shrewd Manager where are you!

 

[Saint Steven]

Does the idea of God punishing anyone make sense anyway? Doesn't He forgive us without punishing us first because that was remitted for us on the cross?

Don't we all get a "free pass" on punishment because we're justified by Christ's blood? And as we're all sinful, why won't those who turn to Jesus in the next age receive the same remittance as those who kneel and confess in this age?

Lots of question marks there for some reason but you can treat them as rhetorical if you like!

Okay. Now I can respond to your post. I had to get that image in text while it was fresh.

Questions are good. We don't question things enough, from my perspective.

Yes, "punishment" makes no sense. The standard dogma says we should be punished for being born in Adam's race. Even though we had no choice in the matter. The death penalty hung over us before we were even capable of sin on our own. However, the price had already been paid on the cross. The benefit of which we can receive now, or in the afterlife. Who God chooses to call now, and who he chooses to redeem later is a great mystery. Why not one or the other?

 

[Hmm]

While reading your post I was overtaken by a mental image of a marathon race finish line. Jesus was carrying my unconscious body in his arms across the finish line. He looked as though he had just come down from the cross, yet he was carrying me.

There was no one else in the race. I imagine he put me down and went to get the next one.

Great image. I liked the detail that it wasn't a competitive race with the consequent losers that that would entail. Artistic perception!

 

[Saint Steven]

How about "redintegrate"

Verb, transitive
to make whole or complete again; restore to a perfect state; renew

Word origin
C15: from Latin redintegrāre to renew, from red- re- + integer complete



@Shrewd Manager where are you!

Ooo... I like that. Especially the definition. Spot on.
Initially I thought you had misspelled "reintegrate". - lol
That one works as well, but not as well as "redintegrate". Thanks.

reintegrate
rē-ĭn′tĭ-grāt″
transitive verb

1. To restore to a condition of integration or unity.
2. To renew with regard to any state or quality; to restore; to bring again together into a whole, as the parts off anything; to reestablish.