Discussion on the 5th Seal

[Bob_1000]

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The way I see it “the alter” is the cross where the blood of the Lamb was shed. “Under the alter” would be the heart of the earth (Abraham’s bosom) where the Old Testament souls were. The white robes is the righteousness of Christ given to those in Abraham’s bosom.

Does anyone have a better explanation for what the alter is, who the souls under the alter are and what the white robes are?

 

[miamited]

Hi @Bob_1000

I'd never considered that the altar was the cross. That actually makes some sense. That would also mean that the 5th seal has already been opened.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Rachel20]

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

The idea of an "avenger of blood" is an Old Testament one pertaining to the Jews. So I see that as a clue who these souls are.

Blood-Avenger

 

[3 Resurrections]

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This is not the first time in scripture that we read about this same group crying for vengeance. In Luke 18:7-8's parable about the unjust judge, Christ spoke about God avenging His own elect, which were crying day and night unto Him. Jesus said that God was going to avenge them "speedily" when the Son of Man came back.

The "white robes" given to this group of souls under the altar were robes of perfected righteousness for resurrected saints (Revelation 19:8). These under the altar were the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints, raised from the dead on the same day as Christ. In Revelation 6:11, these begging for vengeance were told to "rest for a little season". In other words, they remained on earth in their resurrected state (during the "little season" when Satan was loosed on earth in AD 33 at Christ's ascension). They were to wait on earth in their resurrected state until their brethren which were "about to be killed as they were should be fulfilled".

From the time that the resurrected group of Matthew 27:52-53 were raised from the dead with Christ, there were going to be many like themselves persecuted and martyred for the word of God in those years leading up to the AD 70 resurrection at Christ's return. The Jewish leadership was responsible for much of this persecution and murder of believers, with many dying because of Saul / Paul before his conversion.

The symbolism of the "altar" where this group of souls was begging for vengeance was pinpointing the blame for their murder on the Jewish religious leadership that presided over the altar in Jerusalem's temple. Jesus had once said that Jerusalem was responsible for killing the prophets and stoning those sent unto her. After Christ ascended, Jerusalem's religious leaders would continue to kill and crucify the prophets, wise men and scribes sent to them by God (Matthew 23:34-37). Jerusalem's rulers would scourge the believers in the synagogues, and persecute them from city to city, so that the blood of all shed upon the earth from Abel onward would be required of that generation who had betrayed and murdered Christ.

Jesus was merely waiting for that "little season" of time to pass after AD 33, so that the rulers of the Jews would "fill ye up then the measure of your fathers". That was the point when He "speedily" brought vengeance upon that generation and Jerusalem during those "Days of Vengeance" - the "Great Tribulation" lasting from AD 66- AD 70.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The idea of an "avenger of blood" is an Old Testament one pertaining to the Jews. So I see that as a clue who these souls are

Yes, exactly so. The rule was set forth in Numbers 35:33. "So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are; for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it."

Since Jerusalem even from ancient days had shed the blood of the prophets and servants of God, (Matthew 23:34-37), Christ said that Jerusalem itself would pay the price for this shedding of innocent blood, even as far back as the blood of Abel slain by his brother. In the AD 70 conflict, the blood that was shed in Jerusalem symbolically reached the depth of a horse's bridle (Revelation 14:20).

Because Jerusalem and its religious leadership presiding over the altar had been the betrayers and murderers of Christ, they were equally guilty of killing anyone who was IN CHRIST.

If a representative diplomat coming from another country is slain, the offense is as bad as if the entire country had been attacked. Christ is the representative of every one of the children of faith. When the Jewish leadership of that generation murdered Jesus their Messiah, it was the same as if they had murdered everyone that He represented.

 

[Bob_1000]

The idea of an "avenger of blood" is an Old Testament one pertaining to the Jews. So I see that as a clue who these souls are.

Blood-Avenger

Great input. The avenger of blood would be avenging the blood of the Old Testament believers.

 

[Rachel20]

Great input. The avenger of blood would be avenging the blood of the Old Testament believers.

So whether you see them as Old Testament believers, or Jews killed during a future Great Tribulation, depends on your eschatology, which will depend on your approach to Biblical interpretation. I tend to interpret scripture more literally (except where allegory is reasonably indicated), so I tend to see these as Jews murdered during a future Great Tribulation.

 

[Bob_1000]

This is not the first time in scripture that we read about this same group crying for vengeance. In Luke 18:7-8's parable about the unjust judge, Christ spoke about God avenging His own elect, which were crying day and night unto Him. Jesus said that God was going to avenge them "speedily" when the Son of Man came back.

The "white robes" given to this group of souls under the altar were robes of perfected righteousness for resurrected saints (Revelation 19:8). These under the altar were the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints, raised from the dead on the same day as Christ. In Revelation 6:11, these begging for vengeance were told to "rest for a little season". In other words, they remained on earth in their resurrected state (during the "little season" when Satan was loosed on earth in AD 33 at Christ's ascension). They were to wait on earth in their resurrected state until their brethren which were "about to be killed as they were should be fulfilled".

From the time that the resurrected group of Matthew 27:52-53 were raised from the dead with Christ, there were going to be many like themselves persecuted and martyred for the word of God in those years leading up to the AD 70 resurrection at Christ's return. The Jewish leadership was responsible for much of this persecution and murder of believers, with many dying because of Saul / Paul before his conversion.

The symbolism of the "altar" where this group of souls was begging for vengeance was pinpointing the blame for their murder on the Jewish religious leadership that presided over the altar in Jerusalem's temple. Jesus had once said that Jerusalem was responsible for killing the prophets and stoning those sent unto her. After Christ ascended, Jerusalem's religious leaders would continue to kill and crucify the prophets, wise men and scribes sent to them by God (Matthew 23:34-37). Jerusalem's rulers would scourge the believers in the synagogues, and persecute them from city to city, so that the blood of all shed upon the earth from Abel onward would be required of that generation who had betrayed and murdered Christ.

Jesus was merely waiting for that "little season" of time to pass after AD 33, so that the rulers of the Jews would "fill ye up then the measure of your fathers". That was the point when He "speedily" brought vengeance upon that generation and Jerusalem during those "Days of Vengeance" - the "Great Tribulation" lasting from AD 66- AD 70.

Where is the “AD 70 resurrection at Christ's return” found in the Bible?

 

[Bob_1000]

So whether you see them as Old Testament believers, or Jews killed during a future Great Tribulation, depends on your eschatology, which will depend on your approach to Biblical interpretation. I tend to interpret scripture more literally (except where allegory is reasonably indicated), so I tend to see these as Jews murdered during a future Great Tribulation.

Agree there are different views on this but one thing that makes it a past event in my opinion is because the souls were in a state of not having the righteousness of Christ on them (the white robes) and the only people that could fit that category would be people who died before Christ atoned for their sins. Any Jew that died from the cross forward would have died covered in the righteousness of Christ.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Where is the “AD 70 resurrection at Christ's return” found in the Bible?

Daniel's 1,335th day (Daniel 12:11-13) was to be a resurrection in which he himself would participate at the end of those 1,335 days. That resurrection would come 1,335 days after the abomination that made desolate had been set up (which was "Jerusalem surrounded by armies", as in Luke 21:20). According to Daniel 12:11, this AOD would happen in conjunction with a season when a daily sacrifice had been taken away. That season was in AD 66 when Eleazar the Temple governor halted the daily sacrifice for Rome and the emperor. This broke the agreement that the Jews had made with Rome to offer this daily sacrifice for Rome and the emperor in order to practice Judaism freely as a "religio licita" with Rome's permission.

This rebellion against Rome resulted in the Roman legion under Cestius Gallus being sent to surround Jerusalem and begin a battle inside the city with the Zealot armies in October of AD 66. Those 1,260 days later when Passover in AD 70 had already begun, Titus came and again surrounded Jerusalem with the Roman armies. Then 45 days after that on the 1,335th day (Pentecost Day in AD 70), Christ returned just at evening to the Mount of Olives, and the angels with Him, as Zechariah 14:4-7 had predicted.

This AD 70 resurrection had been referred to by Paul, who knew that a resurrection would be happening soon in his future, as he told Felix, those on Mars Hill, and Timothy.

Acts 24:15 "...And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there is about to be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

Acts 17:30-31 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he is about to judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

2 Timothy 4:1 "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;"

Christ Himself gave several confirmations of the timing of this resurrection and His return in that generation - the one which had been given the sign of Jonah. This return would happen before Christ's generation had passed away, and before His disciples would have personally finished evangelizing the cities of Israel. His return would also happen while there were still those specific "secret chambers" of the Temple still standing, and while there was still an eastern gate of the Temple in existence for the returning "Prince". Christ's return would also take place at a time when there were still "kings of the earth" / high priests around that were opposing the gospel. Every mention of "kings of the earth" in Revelation shows us that those events were taking place while there were still high priests around to perform those activities, which high priesthood stopped when the Temple was burned in AD 70 and torn down to the last stone.

 

[Bob_1000]

Daniel's 1,335th day (Dan. 12:11-13) was to be a resurrection in which he himself would participate at the end of those 1,335 days. That resurrection would come 1,335 days after the abomination that made desolate had been set up (which was "Jerusalem surrounded by armies", as in Luke 21:20). This AOD would happen in conjunction with a season when a daily sacrifice had been taken away. That season was in AD 66 when Eleazar the Temple governor halted the daily sacrifice for Rome and the emperor. This broke the agreement that the Jews had made with Rome to offer this daily sacrifice for Rome and the emperor in order to practice Judaism freely as a "religio licita" with Rome's permission.

This rebellion against Rome resulted in the Roman legion under Cestius Gallus being sent to surround Jerusalem and begin a battle inside the city with the Zealot armies in October of AD 66. Those 1,260 days later when Passover in AD 70 had begun, Titus came and again surrounded Jerusalem with the Roman armies. Then 45 days after that on the 1,335th day (Pentecost Day in AD 70), Christ returned just at evening to the Mount of Olives, and the angels with Him, as Zechariah 14:4-7 had predicted.

This AD 70 resurrection had been referred to by Paul, who knew that a resurrection would be happening soon in his future, as he told Felix, those on Mars Hill, and Timothy.

Acts 24:15 "...And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there is about to be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

Acts 17:30-31 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he is about to judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

2 Timothy 4:1 "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;"

Christ Himself gave several confirmations of the timing of this resurrection and His return in that generation - the one which had been given the sign of Jonah. This return would happen before Christ's generation had passed away, and before His disciples would have personally finished evangelizing the cities of Israel. His return would also happen while there were still those specific "secret chambers" of the Temple still standing, and while there was still an eastern gate of the Temple in existence for the returning "Prince". Christ's return would also take place at a time when there were still "kings of the earth" / high priests around that were opposing the gospel. Every mention of "kings of the earth" in Revelation shows us that those events were taking place while there were still high priests around to perform those activities, which high priesthood stopped when the Temple was burned in AD 70 and torn down to the last stone.

I believe the abomination that left Jerusalem desolation was the Jews murdering Jesus. That abomination was set up here 2 days before Passover:

Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.
Mat 26:3 Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,
Mat 26:4 And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him.

1335 days - 1290 days = 45 days. 45 days plus the 2 days before the feast of Passover, the day the abomination of desolation was set up, is 47 days. 47 days plus the 3 days Jesus was in the heart of the earth is 50 days.... 50 days later was the day of Pentecost.

It would be hard to change my mind on this view.

 

[jamiec]

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The way I see it “the alter” is the cross where the blood of the Lamb was shed. “Under the alter” would be the heart of the earth (Abraham’s bosom) where the Old Testament souls were. The white robes is the righteousness of Christ given to those in Abraham’s bosom.

Does anyone have a better explanation for what the alter is, who the souls under the alter are and what the white robes are?

The Altar is part of the furniture of the Heavenly Liturgy, of which the Temple Liturgy on Earth was an inadequate and faint copy.

 

[Derf]

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The way I see it “the alter” is the cross where the blood of the Lamb was shed. “Under the alter” would be the heart of the earth (Abraham’s bosom) where the Old Testament souls were. The white robes is the righteousness of Christ given to those in Abraham’s bosom.

Does anyone have a better explanation for what the alter is, who the souls under the alter are and what the white robes are?

The altar is where sacrifices were offered. The blood of the sacrifices would drip under the altar. The imagery here is that there are martyrs that have sacrificed themselves for Christ, but their number isn't complete, until the next chapter. As Christ promised to the church of Sardis:
[Rev 3:4-5 KJV] 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
But they are still dead--they haven't been resurrected yet, so they are told to stay dead (resting) until their number is complete. The robes are given as a symbol that they are loved and a reminder they will walk with Jesus in white (purified of sin). But the reminder is not for the dead, but for John's readers, who will be subjected to similar treatment.

 

[Bob_1000]

The Altar is part of the furniture of the Heavenly Liturgy, of which the Temple Liturgy on Earth was an inadequate and faint copy.

I agree that the earthly altar was a foreshadow of the heavenly altar but I think the Heavenly altar is the place where the Heavenly Lamb's blood was slain which would be the cross. I know there are some that believe Jesus shed his blood in heaven also but I don't see it that way.

 

[Bob_1000]

The altar is where sacrifices were offered. The blood of the sacrifices would drip under the altar. The imagery here is that there are martyrs that have sacrificed themselves for Christ, but their number isn't complete, until the next chapter. As Christ promised to the church of Sardis:
[Rev 3:4-5 KJV] 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
But they are still dead--they haven't been resurrected yet, so they are told to stay dead (resting) until their number is complete. The robes are given as a symbol that they are loved and a reminder they will walk with Jesus in white (purified of sin). But the reminder is not for the dead, but for John's readers, who will be subjected to similar treatment.

I agree with most of that but I believe the white robes represent the righteousness of Christ on the believer.

Isa_61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I agree with most of that but I believe the white robes represent the righteousness of Christ on the believer.

Isa_61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Very true that the white robes represent the righteousness of Christ on the believer, as Revelation 19:8 says. But that righteousness of our salvation is not perfected completely until the believer is in a bodily-resurrected state.

These under the altar being given white robes had already been martyred for their faith as believers, so the white robes given to them was an additional distinction, promoting them to a completely purified resurrected state.

 

[Bob_1000]

Very true that the white robes represent the righteousness of Christ on the believer, as Revelation 19:8 says. But that righteousness of our salvation is not perfected completely until the believer is in a bodily-resurrected state.

These under the altar being given white robes had already been martyred for their faith as believers, so the white robes given to them was an additional distinction, promoting them to a completely purified resurrected state.

That's a little confusing, how can the white robes represent both the righteousness of Christ and the resurrection body? We as believers have already put on the righteousness of Christ and we're not in the resurrected body, so to me the two are completely unrelated.

 

[3 Resurrections]

That's a little confusing, how can the white robes represent both the righteousness of Christ and the resurrection body? We as believers have already put on the righteousness of Christ and we're not in the resurrected body, so to me the two are completely unrelated.

Our salvation is a process, which is not completely finished until we are standing before God face-to-face in a body made incorruptible and immortal. Any believer in this life has Christ's righteousness imputed to them, which covers us and makes us vicariously holy in God's eyes. But the physical body itself also will be given redemption in the final stage of our salvation process. This is what the martyred souls under the altar did not have yet, and is what the gift of the white robes represented.

Jerusalem's religious leadership who had charge of the Temple's altar had killed these saints over the centuries, and they were continuing to beg God for vengeance of their shed blood. These "Days of Vengeance" were coming "speedily" in the AD 70 era (as in Christ's unjust-judge parable). In the meantime, however, these martyred souls were each given their resurrected body (in Matthew 27:52-53) and told to "rest" for a "little season" on earth in those resurrected bodies, just until the rest of the martyred saints in the first century had also died under persecution. Then all of them would "meet the Lord together in the air". This event at Christ's second coming would include those in AD 70 who had just been resurrected, and those like the Matthew 27:52-53 saints who had already been made "alive" by resurrection, but who had "remained" on earth until then (as 1 Thess. 4:15 & 17 described them).

White robes in Revelation 6:11 represented a resurrected condition for the saints having their perfected righteousness of spirit, soul, and body. Only Christ has this immortality inherently, and He gives resurrected immortality of the body to those who are IN CHRIST, in order to finish their salvation process.

 

[Derf]

Very true that the white robes represent the righteousness of Christ on the believer, as Revelation 19:8 says. But that righteousness of our salvation is not perfected completely until the believer is in a bodily-resurrected state.

These under the altar being given white robes had already been martyred for their faith as believers, so the white robes given to them was an additional distinction, promoting them to a completely purified resurrected state.

Except they weren't yet resurrected. They were described as "those slain", and they were told to "rest a little longer". Rest is often associated with sleep ([Mat 26:45 KJV] Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take [your] rest), and sleep with death. And it doesn't make sense that a bunch of resurrected people are stuffed under the altar and told to stay there, if they are already enjoying the resurrected state.

[Rev 6:9 KJV] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[Rev 6:11 KJV] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

 

[Derf]

I agree with most of that but I believe the white robes represent the righteousness of Christ on the believer.

Isa_61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

That's a little confusing, how can the white robes represent both the righteousness of Christ and the resurrection body? We as believers have already put on the righteousness of Christ and we're not in the resurrected body, so to me the two are completely unrelated.

How can believers ("slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held") not already have put on the righteousness of Christ (hadn't received their white robes until the event in Rev 6), but had already been slain for their belief? Maybe we're saying the same thing--that the robes represent the righteousness of Christ, or the purity of Christ's sinless life applied to the believer's life. But why after they were dead, and not before?

Maybe the white robes/garments are for a coming judgment, where they will be seen to be guiltless because of the robes given to them, and passed over (not subject to the condemnation), similar to those that painted their door posts and lintels with blood in Egypt.