Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Fervent]

Since it's impossible for me to show what's not in Old Testament Scripture, you'll have to show where it is. And if it's not there, then we'll have to look elsewhere.

Sure, though the real question is where do I begin? Guess Amos is as good a place to start as any.

“And on that day,” declares the Lord God,
“I will make the sun go down at noon
and darken the earth in broad daylight.
10 I will turn your feasts into mourning
and all your songs into lamentation;
I will bring sackcloth on every waist
and baldness on every head;
I will make it like the mourning for an only son
and the end of it like a bitter day.

11 “Behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord God,
“when I will send a famine on the land—
not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water,
but of hearing the words of the Lord.
12 They shall wander from sea to sea,
and from north to east;
they shall run to and fro, to seek the word of the Lord,
but they shall not find it.

13 “In that day the lovely virgins and the young men
shall faint for thirst.
14 Those who swear by the Guilt of Samaria,
and say, ‘As your god lives, O Dan,’
and, ‘As the Way of Beersheba lives,’
they shall fall, and never rise again.”
(Amos 8:9-14 ESV)

 

[Ceallaigh]

Sure, though the real question is where do I begin? Guess Amos is as good a place to start as any.

“And on that day,” declares the Lord God,
“I will make the sun go down at noon
and darken the earth in broad daylight.
10 I will turn your feasts into mourning
and all your songs into lamentation;
I will bring sackcloth on every waist
and baldness on every head;
I will make it like the mourning for an only son
and the end of it like a bitter day.

11 “Behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord God,
“when I will send a famine on the land—
not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water,
but of hearing the words of the Lord.
12 They shall wander from sea to sea,
and from north to east;
they shall run to and fro, to seek the word of the Lord,
but they shall not find it.

13 “In that day the lovely virgins and the young men
shall faint for thirst.
14 Those who swear by the Guilt of Samaria,
and say, ‘As your god lives, O Dan,’
and, ‘As the Way of Beersheba lives,’
they shall fall, and never rise again.”
(Amos 8:9-14 ESV)

That looks to me like national judgement prophecy regarding the destruction brought on by Babylon, rather than Amos teaching that there will be a place of fiery eternal torment known as "hell".

 

[Ceallaigh]

Repeating complete rubbish after I stated I neither said nor implied any such thing is about a low as one can get. Please show me where I said or implied any such thing.
You might want to go back and reread what I actually, instead of imagining what I said.. Once again I never said anything which could by the wildest stretch of imagination could mean that.

Explain what "according to these sources, among the Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom" is supposed to mean then.

 

[Fervent]

That looks to me like national judgement prophecy regarding the destruction brought on by Babylon, rather than Amos teaching that there will be a place of fiery eternal torment known as "hell".

If you don't understand the references, maybe. Amos had already laid out the national judgment in 1-7, 8 is a heightening of that. It's in addition to the exile.

 

[Ceallaigh]

If you don't understand the references, maybe. Amos had already laid out the national judgment in 1-7, 8 is a heightening of that. It's in addition to the exile.

In what way is Amos teaching that there will be a place of fiery eternal torment known as "hell"?

 

[Fervent]

In what way is Amos teaching that there will be a place of fiery eternal torment known as "hell"?

Through a pre-existent strata of judgment oracles stretching back to Deuteronomy, via the allusions he makes in the passage.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Through a pre-existent strata of judgment oracles stretching back to Deuteronomy, via the allusions he makes in the passage.

How so?

 

[Hmm]

Is there post-mortem corrective punishment?

I'm not sure if "punishment" is the right word. But "post-mortem" and "corrective" work for me. Perhaps post-mortem corrective restoration? As if done by a loving doctor, rather than a dungeon torturer.

Jesus says "kolasis aionios" which is translated as "eternal punishment" in most English Bibles but kolasis means "correction". (Note to Team Hell. This isn't a question of interpretation, it's a question of definition - it's what the word means)

The meaning is explained by Aristotle:

"Now there is a difference between punishment (τιμωρια) and correction (κολασις). Correction is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer; punishment in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction."
Aristotle, Rhetoric book 1 chapter 10.

Without wanting to wake up aionios again, it's interesting to note that since kolasis means “correction”, then aionios (αιωνιος) in Matthew 25:47 cannot mean “everlasting”. Because otherwise it would be saying “These will go away into everlasting correction” and that wouldn't make sense. If the correction is everlasting, then no-one would ever become corrected.

 

[Andrewn]

As I understand it Christian universalists in general believe that people will go to hell. But they don't believe that hell is a place of everlasting torment.

This UR believer thinks that "hell" is too theologically and emotionally loaded a word to be of any use to anyone. The Lake of Fire, being a manifestation of Godfire, is the agent of "post-mortem corrective punishment." It is for burning away dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble - anything keeping us back from entering the Kingdom.

I'm not sure if "punishment" is the right word. But "post-mortem" and "corrective" work for me. Perhaps post-mortem corrective restoration? As if done by a loving doctor, rather than a dungeon torturer.

Beliefs are the same but some participants* do not like to use the word "hell" at all. Got it .

*@Lazarus Short , @Saint Steven , @Shrewd Manager

 

[Saint Steven]

Without wanting to wake up aionios again, it's interesting to note that since kolasis means “correction”, then aionios (αιωνιος) in Matthew 25:47 cannot mean “everlasting”. Because otherwise it would be saying “These will go away into everlasting correction” and that wouldn't make sense. If the correction is everlasting, then no-one would ever become corrected.

Wow. That is so well said. Thanks.

When the definition of kolasis is understood, it logically informs the duration. Understanding that there is a goal (end goal) to the process, naturally adds an ending to the process. A time frame. Like bookends. A beginning and an end. An age. Not an eternity of pointless suffering.

One of the techniques I have used in parenting, is allowing natural consequences. Letting my children deal with what comes from their actions. I think the correction will be like that. An owning up to all we have done. Every idle word and thought.

 

[Saint Steven]

Beliefs are the same but some participants* do not like to use the word "hell" at all. Got it .

*@Lazarus Short , @Saint Steven , @Shrewd Manager

With no centralized doctrinal standard, we all find our own way to process what this is about. Each of us has taken their own path to arrive where they are currently. And therefore our agreement needs only be generalized.

And I think our opponents have hoped to divide us at times by instigating infighting among us, but it has only backfired and made us stronger. And the wise comments of my colleagues help me to evolve my own thinking in this area. There's plenty of room for growth. I certainly don't have this whole thing figured out yet.

A lot of it is deprogramming of the religious upbringing that instilled this previously unchallenged belief in a forever burning hell, and everything that comes with it. (fear, bondage, legalism...)

And I really appreciate your participation in the discussion. You have been a real asset to the thread. Thank you.

 

[Saint Steven]

Beliefs are the same but some participants* do not like to use the word "hell" at all. Got it .

*@Lazarus Short , @Saint Steven , @Shrewd Manager

At times we may use the word "hell" to communicate in the common vernacular an understanding about what is coming in the afterlife for our restoration with those who do believe in "hell". (defined as pointless eternal torment) There is a whole list of Bibles below that do not even contain the word hell.

Bibles that do NOT contain the word "Hell".

Wesley's New Testament (1755)
Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
The Scriptures (1993)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE) Roman Catholic
Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
The Scriptures, 2016
Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017

 

[Saint Steven]

Beliefs are the same but some participants* do not like to use the word "hell" at all. Got it .

*@Lazarus Short , @Saint Steven , @Shrewd Manager

The belief in UR is gaining traction rapidly. There is no denomination or churches that I am aware of. The EO churches are most open to the belief. So, some UR proponents are ending up there. I anticipate a "protestant" (non-catholic) interdenominational institution to develop at some point. But I hope it is done wisely, so as to not ruin a good thing. - lol

So currently, we are left to our own self-education on the subject. Fortunately, there is tons of info out there. And much of it goes back quite a ways. My collection of book links and sites below. (much still to read)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Universal Restorationism book/web sources (Ultimate Redemption)

Here's the most famous source for information about Universalism.
Tentmaker – Jesus Christ, the savior of all men, especially those who believe. I Tim. 4:10

Savior of All site
New Saviour of All Main Page

The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Christ Triumphant, by Thomas Allin
Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin
www.hopebeyondhell.net
Password now required due to Security Updates: 410410

THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS
BY ANDREW JUKES
The Second Death and the Restitution of All Things by Andrew Jukes (Index)

Universalism
The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church
During Its First Five Hundred Years
Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years

THE SALVATION CONSPIRACY: How Hell Became Eternal
by Dr. Ken R. Vincent
The Salvation Conspiracy: How Hell Became Eternal

JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN - HELL by J. Preston Eby
JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN - HELL by J. Preston Eby

Universalism: A Historical Survey
By Richard Bauckham (Professor Of N.T. Studies)
Universalism: a historical survey by Richard Bauckham

The Herald Of God's Grace
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/authors_frames.htm

Origen --- CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book I (Origen)
CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book I (Origen)

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg

Welcome to John Gavazzoni
Index Of Writings Of John Gavazzoni
Index Of Writings Of John Gavazzoni
Testimony: John Gavazzoni
Testimony: John Gavazzoni

Works of A.P. Adams
A.P. Adams

Thomas Whittemore: 100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
Thomas Whittemore: 100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind – Mercy Upon All

The Ragamuffin Gospel - Brennan Manning
https://waterbrookmultnomah.com/pdf/RagamuffinGospel-BrennanManning.pdf

Books by John Wesley Hanson (Author of Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years)

Quotes from the Early Church Fathers on Biblical Universalism
https://forbiddentheology.com/quotes-by-early-church-fathers-on-universalism/

https://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm

4 Misunderstood Phrases, we assume are about hell -
https://brookpotter.org/4-misunderstood-phrases-hell/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Weymouth New Testament
https://www.biblestudytools.com/wnt/

The "BVB"s
Bible Verses Banned
By Bible Believing Believers
https://www.thebvbs.com

1902 Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (EBR)
http://qbible.com/ebr-rotherhams-emphasized-bible-1902

 

[Andrewn]

The meaning is explained by Aristotle:

"Now there is a difference between punishment (τιμωρια) and correction (κολασις). Correction is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer; punishment in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction."
Aristotle, Rhetoric book 1 chapter 10.

Beside Mat 25:46, the only other NT verse that has "kolasis" is the following:

1Jo 4:17 In this way, love is made perfect among us, so that we should have boldness on the Day of Judgment. For just as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear. For fear has to do with kolasis, and the one who fears has not been made perfect in love.

Let's face it, correction hurts. This is why I previously used the expression "corrective punishment."

 

[Saint Steven]

Let's face it, correction hurts. This is why I previously used the expression "corrective punishment."

Good points. And the definition of "punishment" is pretty broad. There's a big difference between having to sit in the corner for a time-out and being incinerated.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The belief in UR is gaining traction rapidly.

Among whom, Steven? Are there stats somewhere we can check out that buttress this statement?

 

[Andrewn]

At times we may use the word "hell" to communicate in the common vernacular an understanding about what is coming in the afterlife for our restoration with those who do believe in "hell". (defined as pointless eternal torment) There is a whole list of Bibles below that do not even contain the word hell.

Bibles that do NOT contain the word "Hell".

The English word hell should not be in Bible translations. I think it was appropriately used in the KJV to translate sheol / hades, since they are more or less equivalent to the concept of 'hel' in Norse mythology. But in the last 400 years, in common everyday English 'hell' changed meaning. It became a place or a condition of torment, unlike sheol / hades. So, it should no longer be used to translate these concepts.

However, in a casual everyday conversation, I agree with you that "At times we may use the word "hell" to communicate in the common vernacular an understanding about what is coming in the afterlife for our restoration with those who do believe in 'hell'." It doesn't help the conversation to just say that I don't believe in hell.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Beliefs are the same but some participants* do not like to use the word "hell" at all. Got it

This might explain the aversion some:

 

[Ceallaigh]

Among whom, Steven? Are there stats somewhere we can check out that buttress this statement?

Anecdotal I know, but it's a lot more out in the open than it was when I first looked into it. Lots more books and videos etc.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The English word hell should not be in Bible translations. I think it was appropriately used in the KJV to translate sheol / hades, since they are more or less equivalent to the concept of 'hel' in Norse mythology. But in the last 400 years, in common everyday English 'hell' changed meaning. It became a place or a condition of torment, unlike sheol / hades. So, it should no longer be used to translate these concepts.

However, in a casual everyday conversation, I agree with you that "At times we may use the word "hell" to communicate in the common vernacular an understanding about what is coming in the afterlife for our restoration with those who do believe in 'hell'." It doesn't help the conversation to just say that I don't believe in hell.

These comments are something I readily agree with.