Trans woman beaten

[ThatRobGuy]

Huh?

The only way to minimize the amount of "predator/prey" dynamics (within the framework of our current prison system) is to house each of those four groups separately.

This debate was discussing how it's unfair to house transwomen with men. But it's also unfair to house how transwomen with biological women...as in either scenario, you're putting a person (in a very hostile environment like the US prison system) in there with someone would can seriously hurt them or sexually abuse them.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Trans woman beaten after being jailed with men, lawsuit against San Diego Sheriff's Department alleges

Is it a good thing, or the right thing that this woman was beaten up after she was placed in her "gone sarnit"/birth gender identity or would it have been safer for her if she would have been placed in her "I identify as this" gender identity?

She had a choice.

I'd like to say there's an easy solution here but there isn't.

Perhaps the left should start a diversity and Inclusion program in prison that includes topics like "do you feel different inside?" and they can see if it makes any difference in how well trans criminals are tolerated over time.

The women in womens' prisons didn't choose to be women. The trans-women in womens' prison who seem to have a problem with raping their fellow prisoners did choose.

We're left with a situation where there's no choice that satisfies all parties involved.

We can choose to protect women and assert that biological sex matters. In which case, trans women are left vulnerable in men's prison.

We can choose to protect trans women and assert that what people feel inside is the important part...and let anyone who "feels like a woman" into women's prisons. That is the criteria that trans activists insist upon...because that is the medical criteria for "trans"...not hormones, not surgery, not fashion.

If I'm to choose, I'd go with the option that hurts the fewest...keeping women in women's prisons, restrooms, etc as safe as we can reasonably expect.

I understand that is unfortunate for trans people but they made a choice....or so some of them claim. We already agree with the idea that women deserve certain accomodations for equality. These are almost all related to biology. Women's sports, women's choice regarding that thing that shall not be mentioned, and so on.

That's the solution which results in the least harm done to the most people.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

It is my understanding that physical violence happens to many people in US prisons. I've been watching some youtube videos about prison, and as I understand it, prisoners have to fight other prisoners or risk getting punished by their affiliates or having everything taken away from them.

Pretty much...

Our prison systems aren't about rehabilitation like they should be, they're about profit motives, and satisfying the "punishment lust" of people who somehow get a warm fuzzy feeling about knowing that "the guy who robbed the bank is living in misery and eating food I wouldn't even feed my dog" rather than hoping for "the guy who robbed the bank is getting counseling and taking classes to become an electrician"

If one really wants a person who engaged in crimes to "learn the error of their ways", and become "a productive member of society", they need to realize that the environment has to be conducive to learning and productivity.

As opposed to having them sleeping on a rotted out cot and eating sub-par slop every day to keep costs low so that the prison corp can remain profitable.

 

[bekkilyn]

countering false witness with facts is now considered contempt of women????

The way you express your "facts" denies the biological reality that these trans people are men, and therefore the statistics applying to males also applies to them, and so far as contempt goes, you don't seem to have any problems at all with these violent men raping and beating up women, but feel free to produce something you have posted that shows any support for women in any way whatsoever, or even any solutions that are helpful to trans people but that doesn't also infringe on the safety of women.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The only way to minimize the amount of "predator/prey" dynamics (within the framework of our current prison system) is to house each of those four groups separately.

This debate was discussing how it's unfair to house transwomen with men. But it's also unfair to house how transwomen with biological women...as in either scenario, you're putting a person (in a very hostile environment like the US prison system) in there with someone would can seriously hurt them or sexually abuse them.

The tiny number of actual trans women in prison once we exclude the incentive for rapists and perverts to declare themselves "trans" is tiny.

Such a small prison with such a small population would quite possibly lead to isolation....and more complaints about being treated "differently".

 

[Palmfever]

The only way to minimize the amount of "predator/prey" dynamics (within the framework of our current prison system) is to house each of those four groups separately.

This debate was discussing how it's unfair to house transwomen with men. But it's also unfair to house how transwomen with biological women...as in either scenario, you're putting a person (in a very hostile environment like the US prison system) in there with someone would can seriously hurt them or sexually abuse them.

I'm with you, just hadn't seen the words, 'cis'

 

[bekkilyn]

I'm with you, just hadn't seen the words, 'cis'

"cis" is a transgender slur.

(Warning: f-word used once)

 

[ThatRobGuy]

The tiny number of actual trans women in prison once we exclude the incentive for rapists and perverts to declare themselves "trans" is tiny.

Such a small prison with such a small population would quite possibly lead to isolation....and more complaints about being treated "differently".

That would weed out the people trying to exploit the legislative component.

No solution is going to be "perfect"...and I don't think prison should be "perfect" for the person who's in there. Otherwise there would be no incentive to leave. But it can be a lot better and more productive/constructive that what it currently is.

At the end of the day, it is still a restriction of privileges and freedoms.

I wouldn't advocate putting someone up in a 5-star hotel room as a valid form of imprisonment. But at the same time, I don't think dehumanizing or being forced to make the choice of "join the Aryan Brotherhood, or get raped in the shower" is a conducive environment for progress either.

There's gotta be a middle ground there somewhere.

Until we can fix the prison system itself, Trans-women in a women's prison or men's prison is putting someone at a disadvantage and "at risk"...which is why I recommended breaking out the housing arrangements into a few more layers.

 

[Strathos]

I agree. Is it wise to put multiple people in a cell when any one of them could be a really dangerous individual and a threat to the others.

But that would require prisons actually spending more money instead of just trying to make as much as possible.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Pretty much...

Our prison systems aren't about rehabilitation like they should be, they're about profit motives, and satisfying the "punishment lust" of people who somehow get a warm fuzzy feeling about knowing that "the guy who robbed the bank is living in misery and eating food I wouldn't even feed my dog" rather than hoping for "the guy who robbed the bank is getting counseling and taking classes to become an electrician"

If one really wants a person who engaged in crimes to "learn the error of their ways", and become "a productive member of society", they need to realize that the environment has to be conducive to learning and productivity.

As opposed to having them sleeping on a rotted out cot and eating sub-par slop every day to keep costs low so that the prison corp can remain profitable.

It depends upon what you see as justice.

I don't know if you would feel justice was done if you were held at gunpoint, beaten, and robbed by criminals who broke into your home....and the result of that was giving those criminals an education and job.

It's a pretty naive idea to think of criminals that way. A lot of people are uneducated. A lot of people don't have jobs.

There's a very small percentage of that group that chooses violent crime as a solution to these issues. In fact, it presumes that these criminals were facing these problems to begin with. If you were to look at a men making these choices....do you think they would be preceded by a lot of attempts at getting a job? That we would be able to find multiple businesses in their area where they applied for work?..

Maybe a few....but I don't think we're talking about 5% of convicts.

 

[Palmfever]

"cis" is a transgender slur.

(Warning: f-word used once)

Never heard nor seen it before. hmm. (The word) Thanks. Not a very attractive word at any rate.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I don't know if you would feel justice was done if you were held at gunpoint, beaten, and robbed by criminals who broke into your home....and the result of that was giving those criminals an education and job.

But one has to be pragmatic about it.

Does that person being treated like an animal "un-do" the robbery?

If that person is put in an environment that just makes them even more violent at the end, is that doing anyone any favors?

At a certain point, one has to embrace a "stop the bleeding, moving forward" approach rather than an escalating pattern.

I think the outcomes are important. If recidivism is high, that means something isn't working.

 

[bekkilyn]

Never heard nor seen it before. hmm. (The word) Thanks. Not a very attractive word at any rate.

It's not even a very accurate one because there are very few people who nicely fit all of their biological sex stereotypes.

 

[Strathos]

But one has to be pragmatic about it.

Does that person being treated like an animal "un-do" the robbery?

If that person is put in an environment that just makes them even more violent at the end, is that doing anyone any favors?

At a certain point, one has to embrace a "stop the bleeding, moving forward" approach rather than an escalating pattern.

I think the outcomes are important. If recidivism is high, that means something isn't working.

Not to mention that a large percent of the prison population are innocent, but couldn't afford a decent lawyer and were pressed into making a plea bargain.

 

[bekkilyn]

It depends upon what you see as justice.

I don't know if you would feel justice was done if you were held at gunpoint, beaten, and robbed by criminals who broke into your home....and the result of that was giving those criminals an education and job.

One side of me says that these people need to be punished for what they did, and to some degree they do need to pay and make amends, but at the same time, we don't want them to come out of prison worse than they were before. We want them to come out of prison ready, able, and willing to become a productive member of society rather than continuing to be a criminal and going on to do the same thing they did before to more people. I don't have the solutions for reforming our prison system, but we do need to do something different.

 

[Palmfever]

I think the outcomes are important. If recidivism is high, that means something isn't working.

True. Yet perhaps was isn't working, wasn't working prior to their incarceration. Bad parenting, schooling, liberal, every one is a winner teaching, and you have a right to express yourself by burning, pillaging and plundering. It's not your fault you're an idiot and a thief. They have more money than you so they should give you some. Forget the job, vote for me we'll take money from working folk and give to you. We'll just raise taxes. Ok? Don't forget to vote. Love you brother, stay out of my neighborhood.
Couldn't help myself. It just came out.

 

[coffee4u]

Trans woman beaten after being jailed with men, lawsuit against San Diego Sheriff's Department alleges

Is it a good thing, or the right thing that this woman was beaten up after she was placed in her "gone sarnit"/birth gender identity or would it have been safer for her if she would have been placed in her "I identify as this" gender identity?

No one deserves to be beaten but men do not belong in female prisons. The women there also have a right to be kept safe. The left would enjoy stripping woman of all their rights because at heart it is a misogynistic movement. They want rights for men, rights for trans and nobody else. They don't care if women, real women are traumatized and raped.

Since this man believed himself to be a woman he should have been able to choose to be with other trans people if he so wished or in solitary until he could be moved to a prison with such facilities.

 

[bekkilyn]

Not to mention that a large percent of the prison population are innocent, but couldn't afford a decent lawyer and were pressed into making a plea bargain.

And many are in for non-violent crimes of various sorts and really don't need to be in there. They could be penalized in some other way to pay for whatever crimes they did.

 

[lismore]

But that would require prisons actually spending more money instead of just trying to make as much as possible.

Yes, that's true

 

[Palmfever]

It's not even a very accurate one because there are very few people who nicely fit all of their biological sex stereotypes.

Well, I identify as hungry right now and the grandkids wanna light a fire and do marshmallows.