Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

[Icyspark]

Oh dear. You're not going to go that route, too, are you?
Didn't you read my post #305? [Sorry, I did but hadn't gotten a chance to reply.]

The whole of the Bible is God's word. Any argument that attempts to shame traditional Christianity, both Catholic and Protestant, by maintaining that the OT is authoritative and unchanging but only some of the NT is divine revelation (excluding the parts that authorize Sunday worship) is bound to fail. That argument cannot succeed.

Hi Albion,

Apparently you've encountered one or more persons who have expressed this belief? That is not my belief, nor is it the belief of the Seventh-day Adventist church. We believe the whole Bible is inspired (i.e. All Scripture is God-breathed...).

You can worship God any day and preferably every day of the week. However we are only told to rest on one day of the week. We are only told that one day of the week was made holy. We were only told that one day of the week was blessed. We were only told that God called one day of the week "My holy day." We were only told to call one day "a delight." We were only told one day was "made for human beings." We were only told to "remember" one day. The reason we are to remember that one day is as a memorial of creation. How odd that that one day we are now to forget was never advocated by the Lord of the day.

1. We're told to follow the example of Jesus. Jesus observed the Sabbath.
2. Paul tells us to follow his example as he follows the example of Christ. Paul kept the Sabbath.
3. Paul waited a whole week just so he could honor the request of Gentiles that he preach to them on the Sabbath. He didn't let them know that they were not bound to observe the Sabbath. He didn't inform them that the Sabbath was no longer a thing and that the new thing was to observe Sunday in honor of the resurrection. No, he did as they requested and waited a full cycle of seven days to meet with them on the Sabbath.

Btw, you didn't answer my question. Where is the authorization to abolish the Sabbath and to replace it with a day with no title other than the one that ties it to the Sabbath (i.e. the first day of the week).

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Albion]

Hi Albion,

Apparently you've encountered one or more persons who have expressed this belief? That is not my belief, nor is it the belief of the Seventh-day Adventist church. We believe the whole Bible is inspired (i.e. All Scripture is God-breathed...).

I appreciate the explanation, but most or all of those folks do say that they believe the NT is inspired, but when explaining their beliefs, they ignore or dismiss the verses from it that bear upon the question concerning which day of the week is the principle day of worship.

You can worship God any day and preferably every day of the week. However we are only told to rest on one day of the week. We are only told that one day of the week was made holy. We were only told that one day of the week was blessed. We were only told that God called one day of the week "My holy day." We were only told to call one day "a delight." We were only told one day was "made for human beings." We were only told to "remember" one day. The reason we are to remember that one day is as a memorial of creation. How odd that that one day we are now to forget was never advocated by the Lord of the day.

and that's what I was explaining to you.

Btw, you didn't answer my question. Where is the authorization to abolish the Sabbath and to replace it with a day with no title other than the one that ties it to the Sabbath (i.e. the first day of the week).

That matter isn't at issue, although there was at first some confusion about it.

 

[Icyspark]

I appreciate the explanation, but most or all of those folks do say that they believe the NT is inspired, but when explaining their beliefs, they ignore or dismiss the verses from it that bear upon the question concerning which day of the week is the principle day of worship.

Hi Albion,

Well, that weren't me and I really can't relate to the premise you're suggesting because I've never seen an Adventist who has done this.

That matter isn't at issue, although there was at first some confusion about it.

You're the one who used the word "authorized." I'm merely asking to see this authorization. I'm surmising from the fact that you haven't supplied it that you don't have anything? At least nothing biblical?

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Albion]

Hi Albion,

Well, that weren't me and I really can't relate to the premise you're suggesting because I've never seen an Adventist who has done this.

Hi, Icyspark.

No, it wasn't you, but I was just passing along the information about previous discussions here for your benefit and because I know you couldn't have been involved with any of them at the time.

You're the one who used the word "authorized." I'm merely asking to see this authorization. I'm surmising from the fact that you haven't supplied it that you don't have anything? At least nothing biblical?

Well, the quotes from my posts that you used in this message didn't include anything with that word, so offhand, I don't know what the issue is.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi Albion,

Well, that weren't me and I really can't relate to the premise you're suggesting because I've never seen an Adventist who has done this.

Hi Icyspark!

Nice thread! Glad to see you drop back in on CF as well. I have only been on these forums for a little over a year and agree I have never read any posts by SDA's who dismiss any part of the scriptures including the New Testament. Some posters claim the apostles authorized a new day of worship, but no one has been able to produce this said scripture.

Instead we have the apostles telling us what matters IS keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 which of course includes the 4th commandment. The apostles not only kept the Sabbath commandment they taught others Acts 17:2, Acts 13:42-44, Acts 18:4.

And of course we have our greatest example is Jesus who we are told kept the commandments John 15:10 and Jesus on the Sabbath day going to the Temple as it was His custom reading God's Word Luke 4:16-22

1 John 2:6 Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked

God is good! God fulfills every promise including the Sabbath that is meant to be such a blessing and delight. Exodus 31:16-17 to Isaiah 66:23

God bless!

 

[Icyspark]

You're the one who used the word "authorized." I'm merely asking to see this authorization. I'm surmising from the fact that you haven't supplied it that you don't have anything? At least nothing biblical?

Well, the quotes from my posts that you used in this message didn't include anything with that word, so offhand, I don't know what the issue is.

Hi Albion,

Are you trying to be coy, or do you not remember? I really don't wish to play semantical games.

The whole of the Bible is God's word. Any argument that attempts to shame traditional Christianity, both Catholic and Protestant, by maintaining that the OT is authoritative and unchanging but only some of the NT is divine revelation (excluding the parts that AUTHORIZE Sunday worship) is bound to fail. That argument cannot succeed.

So maybe I didn't quote you exactly, but you did use the word "authorize" and it is your claim that "Sunday worship" is authorized. Can you supply this biblical authorization? If not just admit it and we can move on.

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Albion]

Hi Albion,

Are you trying to be coy, or do you not remember? I really don't wish to play semantical games.

My friend, you've put up 54 posts on Christian Forums; I've put up 108,000. Yes, I sometimes forget when a single word might have been used in some post.

 

[Icyspark]

My friend, you've put up 54 posts on Christian Forums; I've put up 108,000. Yes, I sometimes forget when a single word might have been used in some post.

Hi Albion,

In my previous post I gave you the latitude that perhaps you might've forgotten. I also again asked to see your biblical authorization for Sunday worship, and again you've not supplied anything. Is it ok with you if we conclude together that you don't have the authorization you claimed to have?

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Albion]

Hi Albion,

In my previous post I gave you the latitude that perhaps you might've forgotten.

after you'd suggested that perhaps I was being "coy" and then throwing the word in huge red letters at me.

I also again asked to see your biblical authorization for Sunday worship, and again you've not supplied anything.

As with every other SDA who takes to social media to debate this issue, you already know the verses and are simply waiting for me to point to it so that you can then reject it.

That's a certain style of debate by which the one side thinks it can lead the other through a series of Qs and As until that other person is forced to admit, from his own replies, that his POV was in error. No thanks. If you'd been with us earlier, you'd have seen that gimmick tried repeatedly by your fellow Sabbatarians.

 

[Icyspark]

after you'd suggested that perhaps I was being "coy" and then throwing the word in huge red letters at me.


As with every other SDA who takes to social media to debate this issue, you already know the verses and are simply waiting for me to point to it so that you can then reject it.

That's a certain style of debate by which the one side thinks it can lead the other through a series of Qs and As until that other person is forced to admit, from his own replies, that his POV was in error. No thanks. If you'd been with us earlier, you'd have seen that gimmick tried repeatedly by your fellow Sabbatarians.

Hi Albion,

It seems to me that you are projecting your past experiences with other posters onto me. To be fair, I may be doing the same to you (i.e. "the huge red letters") because I've encountered my own share of coy behavior on another forum.

That said, this is a discussion forum and if you don't want to discuss then why insert your beliefs and then not be prepared to discuss/defend them? I am aware what the Bible says about Sunday and the truth of the matter is that there are only 7 texts in the New Testament that specifically deal with said day and there is no authorization for Sunday worship in any of them. Would you like me to list them off for us to examine together?

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Albion]

Hi Albion,

It seems to me that you are projecting your past experiences with other posters onto me. To be fair, I may be doing the same to you (i.e. "the huge red letters") because I've encountered my own share of coy behavior on another forum.

That said, this is a discussion forum and if you don't want to discuss then why insert your beliefs and then not be prepared to discuss/defend them?

Oh, I've been and remain willing to defend the traditional belief in Sunday worship, and I've stated why I support it.

What I am no longer interested in doing is playing that particular game that I referred to. If you think that the New Testament's verses which tell us of the early church's decision to worship on Sunday are 1) either without standing as God's word OR 2) that the wording means something else, go ahead.

 

[Icyspark]

Oh, I've been and remain willing to defend the traditional belief in Sunday worship, and I've stated why I support it.

What I am no longer interested in doing is playing that particular game that I referred to. If you think that the New Testament's verses which tell us of the early church's decision to worship on Sunday are 1) either without standing as God's word OR 2) that the wording means something else, go ahead.

Hi Albion,

Yet let's be clear. You claimed you had biblical texts which "authorize ... Sunday worship," yet you have refused to supply anything of the sort. Instead, now that your cards have been called you're attempting to hedge your bet behind a cloud of rhetoric. I'd think that if someone had such authorization they'd be willing to supply it. Instead, here we are with nothing on your part to examine. Just a lot of assertions and accusations and zero Bible texts. That's not a good foundation on which to base one's beliefs.

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

The NT is clear that the ten commands have been replaced by the two love commands, which fulfills ALL the law, without a command to keep any days.

Hi chad kincham,

Are you a sinner? What does the Bible say about how we know this?

Romans 7:7-12
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law IS holy, and the commandment IS holy, righteous and good.​

You're saying the Ten Commandments "have been replaced by the two love commands," yet Paul here seems to be disagreeing with you. Paul says he wouldn't even know what sin was without the law. Then he drills down further and identifies a singular commandment from the Ten Commandment covenant to illustrate his point. Is the tenth commandment not to covet the only commandment which identifies sin? Or rather, is it not more likely that when Paul appeals to one from the Decalogue that he is really appealing to them as a unit--a unit of Ten Commandments?

Paul doesn't stop there. He then goes on to indicate that this law which contains the tenth commandment Is holy. Is righteous. Is good. The word "is" indicates present tense, right? So this law, which identifies sin and our need for a Saviour is still in effect.

You do realize that law and love have always been inextricably linked? It's not like there's ever been a time where one existed without the other.

Deuteronomy 7:12
If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your ancestors.

Deuteronomy 11:1
Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements, his decrees, his laws and his commands always.

Deuteronomy 19:9
because you carefully follow all these laws I command you today—to love the Lord your God and to walk always in obedience to him—then you are to set aside three more cities.

Deuteronomy 30:16
For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

Joshua 22:5
But be very careful to keep the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the Lord gave you: to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to keep his commands, to hold fast to him and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.”

John 14:23
Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
​

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

That’s because Jesus is our rest, and the ceremonial day of rest ended.

Hi chad kincham,

The spiritual rest that Jesus supplies doesn't overturn the physical rest which He also supplies in His once a week Sabbath rest. Compare the following two passages and consider the three color-coded elements and then see if you can answer the related questions:

Matthew 11:28
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 7:37
On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."​

T__ F__ There is a physical component to humans resting on the Sabbath.
T__ F__ Finding spiritual rest in Jesus is no different than drinking spiritual water. Both do not negate the continued need for their physical counterpart.
T__ F__ Resting in Jesus means that humans no longer require any physical rest.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

It’s not a hard concept, yet shadow keepers continue to act clueless about the fact that love does no harm to your neighbor, thus love fulfills all the law.

Hi chad kincham,

I suppose anyone who adheres to any aspect of obeying the Lord is a "shadow keeper"? Or rather, it's only those who remember the Sabbath as commanded and do not forget the Sabbath as is no where commanded? You do realize that the Sabbath doesn't point forward to the cross (as a shadow does), but rather points back to the creation? Thus it has zero to do with shadows.

People who appeal to the law of love don't seem to realize that without the corresponding laws which reveal said love that humans would have no way of knowing what love really is. Love for one person could be completely different than how another person may view it. It would all be arbitrary and capricious.

Jesus clearly says, "If you love me, keep my commands." Your love for Him is revealed by your obedience to what He asks of you. So then love fulfills the law when the law is kept. Easy

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

The ten commands were an external law kept out of fear of punishment.

Hi chad kincham,

Or, if you love Jesus you'd be keeping them because of that love.

Deuteronomy 11:1
Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements, his decrees, his laws and his commands always.

John 14:15, 23-24
[Jesus answered] “If you love me, keep my commands.

Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.​

Then too there's the issue of how children are to respond to the punishment of their fathers. Here's how Hebrews describes this:

Hebrews 15:5-11
[Y]ou have forgotten that the Scriptures say to God’s children,

“When the Lord punishes you,
don’t make light of it,
and when he corrects you,
don’t be discouraged.
6 The Lord corrects the people
he loves
and disciplines those
he calls his own.”​

7 Be patient when you are being corrected! This is how God treats his children. Don’t all parents correct their children? 8 God corrects all of his children, and if he doesn’t correct you, then you don’t really belong to him. 9 Our earthly fathers correct us, and we still respect them. Isn’t it even better to be given true life by letting our spiritual Father correct us?

10 Our human fathers correct us for a short time, and they do it as they think best. But God corrects us for our own good, because he wants us to be holy, as he is. 11 It is never fun to be corrected. In fact, at the time it is always painful. But if we learn to obey by being corrected, we will do right and live at peace.​

So when God punishes you are you now going to obey Him out of fear? Or do you realize that "God corrects us for our own good, because he wants us to be holy, as he is"? Our human fathers do this "and we still respect them." So why is it when God does this that some choose not to respect Him?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

You didn’t murder your neighbor because you love him, but because you would be stoned to death under the same law that Moses received.

It’s not a hard concept to understand there is a huge difference between the reason for keeping the two commands vs the old ten.

Say you have two families, the smith family and the Jones family.

In both families the son has a law given to him to mow the lawn.

You might equate both laws as being the same, because both call for the lawn to be mowed.

But then you find out mr smith told his son, mow the lawn every Saturday, or I’ll kill you by stoning you to death - but mr Jones told his son to mow the lawn because he loves his father.

The two love commands far exceed a mere ten on how well you treat your neighbor, and thus are far superior.

And keeping them is done for a superior reason than fear of

Hi chad kincham,

I'm beginning to see the problem here. The problem as icy it is that you apparently aren't seeing that everything God does and is is love. According to Hebrews 13:8, "Jesus Christ never changes! He is the same yesterday, today, and forever." His law in the Old Testament is based on love because that's who Jesus is. The law He gave is perfect. How are you going to get better than perfect?

Just because there is a punishment aspect to the requirements God sets forth doesn't make them any less loving. When your human father punished you did you not respect him for it? And if you are a father yourself, did you ever punish your child when they went astray? Did you love your child any less when you punished them? Was your punishment meant to help them grow into a well-adjusted adult or did you punish them for your own pleasure and amusement?

According to Hebrews 15:10, "God corrects us for our own good, because he wants us to be holy, as he is." Don't you want to be holy like He is holy? The Bible says that those who are not holy will not see God.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

And yet Moses said no one, not their fathers, had the law given to him on the mountain

It’s obvious no one was ever commanded to keep the sabbath until Israel was given it as a covenant sign, and to remember God set them free from Egyptian slavery.

Hi chad kincham,

According to Paul, sin is defined by the law and he wouldn't have known what sin was without the law (Romans 7:7).

With that in mind take a look at what he said a couple chapters earlier in the book of Romans:

Romans 5:13
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.​

Here Paul says sin was in the world before the law was given. Based on the fact that the Bible's definition of sin is "transgression of the law," then would it not make sense that what he was actually indicating was that sin was in the world before the codified law (or written law) was given? After all, well before we get to the Exodus account we discover that God is judging people for things which there is no previously revealed God-given command, law, statute, or regulation which would've indicated God's displeasure at certain actions.

For instance, on what basis was Cain punished by God for murdering his brother? There was no revealed command prohibiting murder, yet God warned Cain before his transgression that "sin is crouching at your door. It desires to have you but you must master it" (Genesis 4:7). Since sin is the transgression of the law, then isn't it apparent that Cain was aware that murder was a sin? How else could God claim sin was crouching at his door if Cain had no idea of what sin was?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

Sunday observance as a day of supposedly honoring Christ's resurrection didn't begin with the apostles.

What evidence do you have that suggests otherwise?

Hi prodromos,

That's precisely the point. There is no biblical evidence suggesting that the apostles placed any emphasis of honoring Christ's resurrection on the first day of the week. There are only seven times in the New Testament in which the first day of the week is even mentioned. Five of these are merely historical references to the resurrection. That means that if you're going to find any sort of authorization for Sunday observance you'll have to discover it in those remaining two texts.

Let me know what you find

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Freth]

Oh, I've been and remain willing to defend the traditional belief in Sunday worship, and I've stated why I support it.

What I am no longer interested in doing is playing that particular game that I referred to. If you think that the New Testament's verses which tell us of the early church's decision to worship on Sunday are 1) either without standing as God's word OR 2) that the wording means something else, go ahead.

Warnings against following tradition of men.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

1 Peter 1:18-21 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.​

Paul cautioned that iniquity was already at work in his day.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-7 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.​

2 Thessalonians 2:14-15 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly [iniquity, vain tradition], and not after the tradition which he received of us.​