Who are the Elect?

[TedT]

All whom God has predestined in Christ are the elect.

Agreed.

Every Christian is God's elect.

No, there are false christians, wolves in sheep clothing.

Note: This does not mean that the elect cannot fall away (they can);

Election is a promise of salvation from all sin to be able to enter the heavenly marriage. All the elect on earth have fallen away, all are sheep gone astray into sin, none are righteous but as elect, all His sheep will be returned to Him and then the goats will be banished.

Election is unconditional.

If there was no condition found in us for our election then there was no condition found in the non-elect to account for them not being elected, chosen, to be HIS Bride. Damnation then is arbitrary, a hard position to hold but a perfect corollary to unconditional election.

There are various verses which contend HE does not want nor take pleasure in the death of anyone: 2 Peter 3:9 he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. etc. which directly contradicts the doctrine of unconditional non-electron ie the idea some were created to end in hell.

There is no condition found in any sinner that causes them to be saved, which is all by grace alone but salvation from sin is NOT election!! Our election was before we were sinners so why consider that the rules would be the same for election as it is for salvation?? Every bit of salvation from sin is to fulfill the promise of election to make any of HIS chosen sheep who might fall into sin to become heaven ready.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Agreed.

No, there are false christians, wolves in sheep clothing.

Of course. As St. Augustine said there are many wolves within, and many sheep without. That doesn't change the fact that God's promises are God's promises.

Election is a promise of salvation from all sin to be able to enter the heavenly marriage. All the elect on earth have fallen away, all are sheep gone astray into sin, none are righteous but as elect, all His sheep will be returned to Him and then the goats will be banished.

If there was no condition found in us for our election then there was no condition found in the non-elect to account for them not being elected, chosen, to be HIS Bride. Damnation then is arbitrary, a hard position to hold but a perfect corollary to unconditional election.

There are various verses which contend HE does not want nor take pleasure in the death of anyone: 2 Peter 3:9 he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. etc. which directly contradicts the doctrine of unconditional non-electron ie the idea some were created to end in hell.

There is no condition found in any sinner that causes them to be saved, which is all by grace alone but salvation from sin is NOT election!! Our election was before we were sinners so why consider that the rules would be the same for election as it is for salvation?? Every bit of salvation from sin is to fulfill the promise of election to make any of HIS chosen sheep who might fall into sin to become heaven ready.

There is no condition on our election, God chose us in the nakedness and wretchedness of our sin. God doesn't choose saints, God chooses sinners.

And yes, it is the will and desire of God to save everyone.

The Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement is false. In the same way, the Arminian doctrine of Unlimited Atonement is also false.

Christ did not die only for the elect. Christ died for everyone. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Everyone.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[TedT]

And yes, it is the will and desire of God to save everyone.

That's why I'm not a Calvinist, I'm a Lutheran.

I did not know that Lutherans believed in universal salvation...

 

[ViaCrucis]

I did not know that Lutherans believed in universal salvation...

Lutherans believe in Universal Atonement, not Universal Salvation.

We acknowledge, and must admit, that the Scriptures indeed speak of those who will resist and reject the saving work of God until the very bitter end.

God, however, does not pick and choose who is and is not saved. God has chosen us for salvation; that does not mean that God chooses anyone for damnation. Just the opposite: God wills and desires the salvation of all.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Major1]

I'm basing my salvation on God's promises in Christ Jesus, that Christ died for me and that I am forgiven by the shed blood of the Lamb.

Have a nice day.

-CryptoLutheran

Absolutely agreed.

I only posted my responce due to your comment of.........
"All whom God has predestined in Christ are the elect. And all who are baptized, all who hear and believe, are the elect of God."

 

[Major1]

Lutherans believe in Universal Atonement, not Universal Salvation.

We acknowledge, and must admit, that the Scriptures indeed speak of those who will resist and reject the saving work of God until the very bitter end.

God, however, does not pick and choose who is and is not saved. God has chosen us for salvation; that does not mean that God chooses anyone for damnation. Just the opposite: God wills and desires the salvation of all.

-CryptoLutheran

Indeed, Jesus did die for all sins of all people. The difference between the person who goes to Heaven and the person who goes to Hell is the person who goes to Heaven has their sins paid for and they accepted that by faith. The person who goes to Hell has their sins paid for and they have not accepted it by faith.

Choices!!!!

 

[Major1]

The reason is that children of God are not better people than the reprobate.


Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
— Ephesians 2:3

There’s not a good group and a bad group. There are those who hate God, and those whom He’s lavished with grace.

You are very correct.

Christians are not better than anyone else BUT what they are is "Forgiven"!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Indeed, Jesus did die for all sins of all people. The difference between the person who goes to Heaven and the person who goes to Hell is the person who goes to Heaven has their sins paid for and they accepted that by faith. The person who goes to Hell has their sins paid for and they have not accepted it by faith.

Choices!!!!

I didn't make a choice that made me saved.

And thank God, because if left to my own works I'd damn myself a thousand times over.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Major1]

I just said: Rather, it [death] is a righteous judgement by a proper Judge upon a condemned criminal.

BUT it is NOT righteous nor just to create a sinner, to force someone to be a sinner without his choice to sin and with no evil intent to sin and then to punish him for that sin.

It is NOT righteous nor just to punish a person for another's sin.

Sinners are not created.

Sinners are born the 1st time into the world.

Romans 7:14 .......
"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin."

We are born with a sinful nature and we inherited it from Adam.

Romans 5:12........
“Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people”.

Every one of us was affected by Adam’s sin; there are no exceptions.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:1.....
"Judge not, that you be not judged".

Does this mean we are never to judge? Certainly not, for Jesus also said in John 7:24.......
"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment"

We are commanded to exercise righteous judgment. We are forbidden to judge when we are not qualified to do so.

 

[Major1]

I didn't make a choice that made me saved.

And thank God, because if left to my own works I'd damn myself a thousand times over.

-CryptoLutheran

IF.....IF you had not made the choice for Jesus, do you think you would have beeen saved.

When a person comes to Christ by faith, he or she wants to come to Christ. He sees Jesus and the gospel as compelling and he willingly comes to Him in faith. The call in the gospel is for people to repent and believe, and those are real and genuine acts of the will.

Nowhere in the Bible is there a hint that man’s will is invalid or fake. People make decisions, and God holds people accountable for those decisions.

The Bible does not put human will at odds with divine sovereignty, as if only one of these could be real. It simply upholds both concepts as valid. Man has a genuine will and is responsible. And God is sovereign over all things, even over the will of man.

 

[TedT]

We acknowledge, and must admit, that the Scriptures indeed speak of those who will resist and reject the saving work of God until the very bitter end.

God, however, does not pick and choose who is and is not saved.

Why do you believe in a bitter end? What makes the next second of existence different from the last so that suddenly there must be a judgement? IF they can be saved one second, what is the cutoff that they now cannot be saved?? Does GOD's patience waiting for them stop?

GOD is Love and love is perfectly patient, right? If this doctrine was true that people who are in hell could have been saved but they took too long to repent and accept HIS offer of salvation, then it discounts GOD's loving patience and suggests HE acts less than HIMself, a hard position to hold.

I myself tend to believe that only those who have sinned the unforgivable sin and who therefore cannot be saved will indeed not be saved but will end in hell. No one who can be saved will be in hell but will be saved, guaranteed. This means that I also don't accept that HE picks and chooses who will be saved and who will not in that everyone chose their own relationship with HIM either as their saviour or as HIS unforgivable enemy by their free will.

Neither do I accept that the call to redemption is for everyone but rather it is only for those sinners who did not sin the unforgivable sin, allowing them to be redeemed. I contend the gospel is to be preached to everyone to prove to the sinful elect that the reprobate weeds/goats will not ever, ie, cannot ever, repent because their sin made them eternally evil and unforgivable. Once they know this it is easier for the sinful elect give up their loyalty to the weeds in their lives and can come out from among them and touch not their uncleanness.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why do you believe in a bitter end? What makes the next second of existence different from the last so that suddenly there must be a judgement? IF they can be saved one second, what is the cutoff that they now cannot be saved?? Does GOD's patience waiting for them stop?

GOD is Love and love is perfectly patient, right? If this doctrine was true that people who are in hell could have been saved but they took too long to repent and accept HIS offer of salvation, then it discounts GOD's loving patience and suggests HE acts less than HIMself, a hard position to hold.

I myself tend to believe that only those who have sinned the unforgivable sin and who therefore cannot be saved will indeed not be saved but will end in hell. No one who can be saved will be in hell but will be saved, guaranteed. This means that I also don't accept that HE picks and chooses who will be saved and who will not in that everyone chose their own relationship with HIM either as their saviour or as HIS unforgivable enemy by their free will.

Neither do I accept that the call to redemption is for everyone but rather it is only for those sinners who did not sin the unforgivable sin, allowing them to be redeemed. I contend the gospel is to be preached to everyone to prove to the sinful elect that the reprobate weeds/goats will not ever, ie, cannot ever, repent because their sin made them eternally evil and unforgivable. Once they know this it is easier for the sinful elect give up their loyalty to the weeds in their lives and can come out from among them and touch not their uncleanness.

You're asking some questions which there simply aren't answers for. Of course God is patient and loving and knows no bounds; and if in the end all are saved, then glory be to God. But as far as what is available for us to know there are only one class of people: Sinners; sinners whom God loves, and for whom Christ died. God's power and work is to save sinners.

Since it is God's will to save all.
Since salvation is by grace alone through faith.
Since Christ died for all.
Then it proceeds that God did not choose anyone to damn, and that the person who is damned is damned by themselves.

It is God's will that sinners be redeemed and have eternal life.
It is man's will that sinners be damned.

I think the view you've expressed here:

"I contend the gospel is to be preached to everyone to prove to the sinful elect that the reprobate weeds/goats will not ever, ie, cannot ever, repent because their sin made them eternally evil and unforgivable. Once they know this it is easier for the sinful elect give up their loyalty to the weeds in their lives and can come out from among them and touch not their uncleanness."

Is actually quite vile, and utterly antithetical to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

IF.....IF you had not made the choice for Jesus, do you think you would have beeen saved.

When a person comes to Christ by faith, he or she wants to come to Christ. He sees Jesus and the gospel as compelling and he willingly comes to Him in faith. The call in the gospel is for people to repent and believe, and those are real and genuine acts of the will.

Nowhere in the Bible is there a hint that man’s will is invalid or fake. People make decisions, and God holds people accountable for those decisions.

The Bible does not put human will at odds with divine sovereignty, as if only one of these could be real. It simply upholds both concepts as valid. Man has a genuine will and is responsible. And God is sovereign over all things, even over the will of man.

I've been a believer in Jesus since I was in diapers. My salvation had nothing to do with any choice I made, but everything to do with God's grace, giving me faith through the Gospel.

Over the course of my 39 years of life on this planet I've made lots of choices. Some of them have been for Jesus, but let's be honest, even my best works and choices have been sinful and selfish. Most of the choices and decisions I've made in life haven't been for Jesus at all, but have been for the indulgence of my own sinful flesh. Including the decisions and choices that I convinced myself were holy and good choices to make.

So, once again, I give God thanks that God doesn't save me based on my own sinful wretched choices and works of my sinful will; God saves me based upon the finished work of Jesus Christ, which I have received through faith, as the free gift of God.

If I chose to walk away from the Lord, then no I wouldn't be saved. But, again, I give thanks to God for His mercy, who holds and keeps me in Christ, through the faith He gives me. That His Spirit is at work sustaining me, keeping me, and giving me life through God's Word and Sacraments.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hammster]

I just said: Rather, it [death] is a righteous judgement by a proper Judge upon a condemned criminal.

BUT it is NOT righteous nor just to create a sinner, to force someone to be a sinner without his choice to sin and with no evil intent to sin and then to punish him for that sin.

It is NOT righteous nor just to punish a person for another's sin.

You seem to be countering an argument that I have not made.

 

[TedT]

Then it proceeds that God did not choose anyone to damn, and that the person who is damned is damned by themselves.

That's what I said... denying that anyone is damned for not repenting soon enough...which you forgot to address, sigh.

 

[TedT]

You're asking some questions which there simply aren't answers for.

Of course There Are Answers....why do people not hear them?

 

[TedT]

Is actually quite vile, and utterly antithetical to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Ahhh, now we know...

 

[Major1]

I've been a believer in Jesus since I was in diapers. My salvation had nothing to do with any choice I made, but everything to do with God's grace, giving me faith through the Gospel.

Over the course of my 39 years of life on this planet I've made lots of choices. Some of them have been for Jesus, but let's be honest, even my best works and choices have been sinful and selfish. Most of the choices and decisions I've made in life haven't been for Jesus at all, but have been for the indulgence of my own sinful flesh. Including the decisions and choices that I convinced myself were holy and good choices to make.

So, once again, I give God thanks that God doesn't save me based on my own sinful wretched choices and works of my sinful will; God saves me based upon the finished work of Jesus Christ, which I have received through faith, as the free gift of God.

If I chose to walk away from the Lord, then no I wouldn't be saved. But, again, I give thanks to God for His mercy, who holds and keeps me in Christ, through the faith He gives me. That His Spirit is at work sustaining me, keeping me, and giving me life through God's Word and Sacraments.

-CryptoLutheran

IF you believe in Christ while in diapers......how do you think that you knew the meaning of SIN when you could not even know how to go to the
bathroom?????

Your salvation has EVERYTHING to do with your choice for Christ when you believed.

Romans 1:16,.......
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.

Romans 10:9...........
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Now....please tell all of us how you believed in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved WHEN YOU DID NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO REASON AND TALK.

 

[Major1]

Why do you believe in a bitter end? What makes the next second of existence different from the last so that suddenly there must be a judgement? IF they can be saved one second, what is the cutoff that they now cannot be saved?? Does GOD's patience waiting for them stop?

GOD is Love and love is perfectly patient, right? If this doctrine was true that people who are in hell could have been saved but they took too long to repent and accept HIS offer of salvation, then it discounts GOD's loving patience and suggests HE acts less than HIMself, a hard position to hold.

I myself tend to believe that only those who have sinned the unforgivable sin and who therefore cannot be saved will indeed not be saved but will end in hell. No one who can be saved will be in hell but will be saved, guaranteed. This means that I also don't accept that HE picks and chooses who will be saved and who will not in that everyone chose their own relationship with HIM either as their saviour or as HIS unforgivable enemy by their free will.

Neither do I accept that the call to redemption is for everyone but rather it is only for those sinners who did not sin the unforgivable sin, allowing them to be redeemed. I contend the gospel is to be preached to everyone to prove to the sinful elect that the reprobate weeds/goats will not ever, ie, cannot ever, repent because their sin made them eternally evil and unforgivable. Once they know this it is easier for the sinful elect give up their loyalty to the weeds in their lives and can come out from among them and touch not their uncleanness.

The "unforgivable sin" my friend is the rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God who saves a sinner from their sin.

 

[ViaCrucis]

IF you believe in Christ while in diapers......how do you think that you knew the meaning of SIN when you could not even know how to go to the
bathroom?????

Your salvation has EVERYTHING to do with your choice for Christ when you believed.

Romans 1:16,.......
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.

Romans 10:9...........
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Now....please tell all of us how you believed in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved WHEN YOU DID NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO REASON AND TALK.

Faith is a gift that God gives through His word, the Gospel. The Gospel creates faith. Ephesians 2:8, Romans 10:17.

I don't believe in salvation by works.

-CryptoLutheran