Who are the Elect?

[Saint Steven]

A problem I have with the concept, is that it seems God prefers people from certain parts of the world where people are the most exposed to Christianity.

One time I was debating with an atheist on a totally different kind of forum and he said something like, "so you just happened to be born in a country where the correct religion is so prevalent. How very convenient for you".

And then there was my upbringing. My grandmother who was like the family matriarch, was a very devout Christian. So her kids were raised to be Christians. And their kids were raised to be Christians. A good portion of my extended family through her are Christians.

My brother to went apostate, made a comment that I'm not sure I can completely disagree with, that "if Grandma had been a Mormon, most of us would probably be Mormons".

And would we all have become Christians if we had lived in Southeast Asia, or India, or somewhere in Africa? And what if on top of that what if we had lived in one of those places during say the 10th century?

Would we all still have become Christians?

Those are some great points.

I had to address this as a young adult. Was I a Christian simply because I was born to a Christian family, or was there more to it than that? Was Christianity really no different than any other world religion?

I came to the conclusion that there indeed was more to it than that. But I came away with a broader perspective.

 

[Major1]

What percentage of his creation do you suppose that God tossed in the dumpster? (trash can) Does the "narrow way" indicate that it was the majority? (seems so)

Do you believe it was God's plan from the beginning to destroy by his choice the vast majority (countless billions) of humanity? (genocide) If so, that sounds like a crime that far outweighs anything perpetrated by the humankind he created. It makes the holocaust look like a church picnic.

Not what my Bible says.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

The entrance to life eternal and abundant is narrow and small. It is limited and very precise. There is only one way. In John 10:9, Jesus said, “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.” In John 3:3, Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” In John 14:6, Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.”

Entrance into God’s kingdom is through the new birth alone. It is all by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Hammster]

Another point to ponder. God has absolute sovereignty. He could choose to not save a single person and still be just.

 

[John Mullally]

Another point to ponder. God has absolute sovereignty. He could choose to not save a single person and still be just.

He could also send His angel to stuff my mailbox with gold nuggets.

 

[Hammster]

He could also send His angel to stuff my mailbox with gold nuggets.

That’s true as well. Glad we are on the same page.

 

[Major1]

Another point to ponder. God has absolute sovereignty. He could choose to not save a single person and still be just.

And that is a fact!

 

[Saint Steven]

The entrance to life eternal and abundant is narrow and small. It is limited and very precise. There is only one way. In John 10:9, Jesus said, “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.” In John 3:3, Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” In John 14:6, Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.”

Entrance into God’s kingdom is through the new birth alone. It is all by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

Welcome aboard. I'm glad to learn that you are a Universalist. Congrats!

 

[TedT]

Another point to ponder. God has absolute sovereignty. He could choose to not save a single person and still be just.

Unacceptable.

HIS sovereignty cannot and does not trump HIS nature as loving, just and righteous. HE cannot make evil good by doing it HIMself. When HE kills for instance, it is not a sinful murder by the reason that it is HIM who is killing. Rather, it is a righteous judgement by a proper Judge upon a condemned criminal.

 

[Hammster]

Unacceptable.

HIS sovereignty cannot and does not trump HIS nature as loving, just and righteous. HE cannot make evil good by doing it HIMself. When HE kills for instance, it is not a sinful murder by the reason that it is HIM who is killing. Rather, it is a righteous judgement by a proper Judge upon a condemned criminal.

Is it just (just and righteous are the same thing) to punish sinners?

 

[Saint Steven]

Delete, or be deleted.

 

[Hammster]

What is just about that?
That wouldn't even measure up to a human standard of justice. Can't God do better than that?

Would the one who requires us to love our enemies (Matthew 5:43-48) do any less to his own? I think there's a word for that. (say one thing and do another)

You probably think this way because you’ve never really thought why we are supposed to love our enemies. And my explanation would probably seem foreign since you think God has to live up to your standard.

 

[Saint Steven]

Thank you.
It always surprises me when someone accepts the slanderous idea that God is a cosmic tyrant that can do as he pleases because, well, who are we to stop him?

And the reference I quoted spells it out. (scripture pasted below)
Verse 48 summarizes the whole thought. Loving your enemies is godly behavior. Meaning, this is what God would do to his enemies, love them.

Some make God out to be worse than a pagan or a tax collector. (traitor) If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? - vs 46

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Hammster]

Thank you.
It always surprises me when someone accepts the slanderous idea that God is a cosmic tyrant that can do as he pleases because, well, who are we to stop him?

It would surprise me, too. However, that’s not my position.

 

[Hammster]

And the reference I quoted spells it out. (scripture pasted below)
Verse 48 summarizes the whole thought. Loving your enemies is godly behavior. Meaning, this is what God would do to his enemies, love them.

Some make God out to be worse than a pagan or a tax collector. (traitor) If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? - vs 46

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The reason is that children of God are not better people than the reprobate.


Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
— Ephesians 2:3

There’s not a good group and a bad group. There are those who hate God, and those whom He’s lavished with grace.

 

[Saint Steven]

Delete, or be deleted.

 

[Major1]

Welcome aboard. I'm glad to learn that you are a Universalist. Congrats!

LOL!!!!!

When Bible truth can not be refuted....resort to being a comedian!

Sinfield is off the air.....why not send the producers a video of your thoughts????

 

[ViaCrucis]

All whom God has predestined in Christ are the elect. And all who are baptized, all who hear and believe, are the elect of God.

Every Christian is God's elect.

Election is God choosing us in Christ.

Note: This does not mean that the elect cannot fall away (they can); nor does it mean that God picks and chooses who will and will not be saved (He doesn't).

It means that God has chosen us in Christ, predestined us in Christ. That's Election.

Election is unconditional.
Election is grace and Gospel, not Law.
Election is about God saving sinners.

Election means that you and I can trust in God's word, in His Sacraments, we can look to our baptism and believe in the promises of God. How can I know that God chose me? I am baptized.

God's work and will is expressed in visible, external, manifest things; not in invisible, internal, and secret things.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Major1]

All whom God has predestined in Christ are the elect. And all who are baptized, all who hear and believe, are the elect of God.

Every Christian is God's elect.

Election is God choosing us in Christ.

Note: This does not mean that the elect cannot fall away (they can); nor does it mean that God picks and chooses who will and will not be saved (He doesn't).

It means that God has chosen us in Christ, predestined us in Christ. That's Election.

Election is unconditional.
Election is grace and Gospel, not Law.
Election is about God saving sinners.

Election means that you and I can trust in God's word, in His Sacraments, we can look to our baptism and believe in the promises of God. How can I know that God chose me? I am baptized.

God's work and will is expressed in visible, external, manifest things; not in invisible, internal, and secret things.

-CryptoLutheran

I do not agree with all that you stated. Most of it yes but not all.

You said........
"All whom God has predestined in Christ are the elect. And all who are baptized, all who hear and believe, are the elect of God."

Nope.....the Bible says in John 3:16....
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

Acts 16:31......
"And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

You are basing our salvation on an act of getting wet in water. That means you are placing as much faith in water as you are the blood of God!

 

[ViaCrucis]

I do not agree with all that you stated. Most of it yes but not all.

You said........
"All whom God has predestined in Christ are the elect. And all who are baptized, all who hear and believe, are the elect of God."

Nope.....the Bible says in John 3:16....
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

Acts 16:31......
"And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

You are basing our salvation on an act of getting wet in water. That means you are placing as much faith in water as you are the blood of God!

I'm basing my salvation on God's promises in Christ Jesus, that Christ died for me and that I am forgiven by the shed blood of the Lamb.

Have a nice day.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[TedT]

Is it just (just and righteous are the same thing) to punish sinners?

I just said: Rather, it [death] is a righteous judgement by a proper Judge upon a condemned criminal.

BUT it is NOT righteous nor just to create a sinner, to force someone to be a sinner without his choice to sin and with no evil intent to sin and then to punish him for that sin.

It is NOT righteous nor just to punish a person for another's sin.