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MARK OF THE BEAST - REVELATION 13-14; 17; 18

Marilyn C

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We probably agree on some bits - but I've not seen it divided up like this before, in this particular way. But are you saying it's not a future timetable but a theological sermon in all those symbols & shadows?

Hi eclipsenow,

Thank you for asking so graciously. As we can see from the 4 Visions, the Lord Jesus Christ is unveiled to us as He IS in the heavenly realm from His ascension. These visions lift our eyes to the Lord, (what ever century believers are in) and encourage them, (us) to realise that HE is in control throughout time. For God throughout His word reveals the beginning and also the end.

And there we see the first of the Lord`s triune titles. Each reveal some part of His great attributes.

Christ`s Signature

Christ would now have us to see His eternal attributes. This is His Deity that was hidden behind the `veil` of His flesh while on earth. He is the all- knowing, all powerful One throughout time & eternity. The `I am.`

“I am the Alpha & Omega, the beginning & the End,” says the Lord,
“who is & who was & who is to come, the Almighty”
(Rev. 1: 8)


His Omniscience – “I am the Alpha & Omega,”

Christ is the whole alphabet, from whom the entire vocabulary for expressing revealed truth is derived. All the treasures of wisdom & knowledge are in Him. (Col.2:3) There is no such thing as knowledge before Him & there cannot be any beyond Him.

Christ, as the Alpha & Omega, is the only way to spiritual secrets, (Rev.2:17) He is the key to unlock the treasures of truth, Himself the interpreter of the invisible, (Rev. 3: 7) & the Door of entrance to eternal enjoyment. (Ps. 16:11 John 10:9)


His Omnipresence – “The Beginning & the End.”

Christ commenced & will conclude all time periods. He conceived the duration of the ages & will yet crown & consummate the ages to come. Everything is under His control. And no event came before the exercise of His will & none will come after His counsel.
(1 Cor. 15: 28)

In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; therefore outside of Christ there is no wider, broader, deeper, higher, greater or vaster measure or authority known. (Col. 2: 9 & 10)

His Omnipotence – “which is, was & is to come, the Almighty,”

The strength of Christ`s might & majesty transcend all others in ability & authority. He is the competent & self-sufficient One in His almightiness.

When we pause to ponder His enormous energy, His great power, His awesome strength & might, these qualities with their tremendous potential causes us to tremble . But, when we turn & learn of the blended qualities of goodness, gracious care, glorious love which are lavished so freely, our fears depart for we view His heart. (Eph. 2: 4 – 8)
 
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eclipsenow

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Hi eclipsenow,

Thank you for asking so graciously.
Except I asked you graciously and gently about one specific thing - and you repaid it with all this?
You could have answered in like 1 or 2 sentences.

But instead...

As we can see from the 4 Visions, the Lord Jesus Christ is unveiled to us as He IS in the heavenly realm from His ascension. These visions lift our eyes to the Lord, (what ever century believers are in) and encourage them, (us) to realise that HE is in control throughout time. For God throughout His word reveals the beginning and also the end.

And there we see the first of the Lord`s triune titles. Each reveal some part of His great attributes.

Christ`s Signature

Christ would now have us to see His eternal attributes. This is His Deity that was hidden behind the `veil` of His flesh while on earth. He is the all- knowing, all powerful One throughout time & eternity. The `I am.`

“I am the Alpha & Omega, the beginning & the End,” says the Lord,
“who is & who was & who is to come, the Almighty”
(Rev. 1: 8)


His Omniscience – “I am the Alpha & Omega,”

Christ is the whole alphabet, from whom the entire vocabulary for expressing revealed truth is derived. All the treasures of wisdom & knowledge are in Him. (Col.2:3) There is no such thing as knowledge before Him & there cannot be any beyond Him.

Christ, as the Alpha & Omega, is the only way to spiritual secrets, (Rev.2:17) He is the key to unlock the treasures of truth, Himself the interpreter of the invisible, (Rev. 3: 7) & the Door of entrance to eternal enjoyment. (Ps. 16:11 John 10:9)


His Omnipresence – “The Beginning & the End.”

Christ commenced & will conclude all time periods. He conceived the duration of the ages & will yet crown & consummate the ages to come. Everything is under His control. And no event came before the exercise of His will & none will come after His counsel.
(1 Cor. 15: 28)

In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; therefore outside of Christ there is no wider, broader, deeper, higher, greater or vaster measure or authority known. (Col. 2: 9 & 10)

His Omnipotence – “which is, was & is to come, the Almighty,”

The strength of Christ`s might & majesty transcend all others in ability & authority. He is the competent & self-sufficient One in His almightiness.

When we pause to ponder His enormous energy, His great power, His awesome strength & might, these qualities with their tremendous potential causes us to tremble . But, when we turn & learn of the blended qualities of goodness, gracious care, glorious love which are lavished so freely, our fears depart for we view His heart. (Eph. 2: 4 – 8)

I'm not sure that you even attempted to answer my question... :scratch:
It all felt a bit :crossrc: :crossrc: :prayer:

Is Revelation a future timetable?
YES or NO

IF your answer is YES - what good was it for John's generation?
Early Christians were to believe that Jesus was the Son of David, God's King, and now they are being cut in half and fed to the lions. Wouldn't God have something to share with them about that? Why wouldn't he say something to THEM about the way they were going to suffer - on and off - for 3 centuries under Roman oppression and State-backed violence?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Let's test your ability to understand English. In LGW's post 486, do a copy and paste which he said "names" associated with the pope.

I do not think there is any need to be rude Doug. Perhaps it is you that need to consider your own advice here. As posted earlier the scripture says....

Revelation 13:17-18 [17], And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the NUMBER OF HIS NAME (beasts). [18], Here is wisdom. LET HIM THAT HAS UNDERSTANDING COUNT (add up) THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST: FOR IT IS THE NUMBER OF A MAN; and his number is SIX HUNDRED THREE SCORE AND SIX (666).

The pope is a man that is the head of the Roman Catholic church. "The number of his name" is referring to the identification of the first beast of Revelation 13 that is found by calculating the name of a man that adds up to 666; "Let him that has understanding count (add up) the number of the beast for it is the number of a man and his number is 666"

See Post # 486 the official titles of the Pope add up to 666 in Latin, Greek and Hebrew.

I think @jgr made some good points in an earlier post to you as well as follows.

You are a man.
There are three names associated with you: first, middle, and last.
The pope is a man.
There are a number of names associated with him.
They appear in post 486.

Take care.
 
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eclipsenow

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This thread illustrates the one thing that really concerns me about futurism and dissuades me from accepting the whole premise. It's how little their theology converges - how little they all agree... :scratch: :sigh: :scratch:

If they can't agree on what the 'beast' or 'anti-Christ' was / is / will be - or even when it was / is / will be - then what good is futurism to the church now? (Let alone John's generation and the last few thousand years.)
 
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Marilyn C

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Except I asked you graciously and gently about one specific thing - and you repaid it with all this?
You could have answered in like 1 or 2 sentences.

But instead...



I'm not sure that you even attempted to answer my question... :scratch:
It all felt a bit :crossrc: :crossrc: :prayer:

Is Revelation a future timetable?
YES or NO

IF your answer is YES - what good was it for John's generation?
Early Christians were to believe that Jesus was the Son of David, God's King, and now they are being cut in half and fed to the lions. Wouldn't God have something to share with them about that? Why wouldn't he say something to THEM about the way they were going to suffer - on and off - for 3 centuries under Roman oppression and State-backed violence?

The whole Bible is about Christ, His character and His purposes from the beginning to the end of time. And it seems you want part of it, (Revelation) to be only meaningful to a group of people in the first century A.D.

Revelation, the unveiling of Jesus as He is known in the heavenly realm, is relevant to believers through out the centuries for it involves the unveiling of the Head of the Body, the Heir of the world, the Mediator of the New Covenant, and the Judge & Creator of all things new.

How could that be anything but a blessing to those who read. It brings all of God`s purposes in Christ to a glorious culmination.
 
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Marilyn C

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Except I asked you graciously and gently about one specific thing - and you repaid it with all this?
You could have answered in like 1 or 2 sentences.


Is Revelation a future timetable?
YES or NO

Do you know about setting a question wrongly?

`Do you still kick the cat? yes or no?`

See how the question is formed? If one says `Yes,` then it means they still kick the cat. If one says, `no,` then it says that they did once kick the cat. However what if the person NEVER kicked the cat. You see the question is misleading.

So is your question.
 
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Douggg

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I do not think there is any need to be rude Doug. Perhaps it is you that need to consider your own advice here. As posted earlier the scripture says....
I copied and pasted the statement "Let's test your ability to understand English" from jgr - in his post #480 to me.

I was just turning the tables on him, using his own words.
 
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Douggg

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The pope is a man that is the head of the Roman Catholic church. "The number of his name" is referring to the identification of the first beast of Revelation 13 that is found by calculating the name of a man that adds up to 666; "Let him that has understanding count (add up) the number of the beast for it is the number of a man and his number is 666"
"his name", not the office he holds.

There have been a multitude of men in the office of pope. And pope was not the name of any of them.

The beast is the eighth king in Revelation 17:10-11.

____________________________________________

The office of President of the United States, President is a title, not a name.

Donald Trump is a name.
Barack Obama is a name.
George Bush is a name.
 
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Douggg

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This thread illustrates the one thing that really concerns me about futurism and dissuades me from accepting the whole premise. It's how little their theology converges - how little they all agree... :scratch: :sigh: :scratch:

If they can't agree on what the 'beast' or 'anti-Christ' was / is / will be - or even when it was / is / will be - then what good is futurism to the church now? (Let alone John's generation and the last few thousand years.)
You are making excuses... to continue, rather than accepting the proofs presented to you.
 
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Douggg

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Is Revelation a future timetable?
YES or NO
From Revelation 6 to 22, the answer is yes.

IF your answer is YES - what good was it for John's generation?

1. that the messages to the church's is how they should behave until Jesus returns. And of rewards to "he that overcometh".

2. that believers in John's generation were given a detailed information regarding the events leading up to Jesus's return which answer many of the prophecy questions of the end times in the old testament, and in the new testament, of how everything fits together - so that they would have a basis for understanding.

And how they would take part in the day that Jesus returns, as one of his saints.

The believers of John's day are not left out as you are insinuating.
 
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eclipsenow

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The whole Bible is about Christ, His character and His purposes from the beginning to the end of time. And it seems you want part of it, (Revelation) to be only meaningful to a group of people in the first century A.D.

No - I want us to read it properly so that we can learn what we are meant to get out of it.

Imagine if I just randomly started asserting that the epistle to the Corinthians or Galatians or Romans wasn't to them - but "Is relevant to believers through out the centuries for it involves the unveiling of the Head of the Body, the Heir of the world, the Mediator of the New Covenant, and the Judge & Creator of all things new."

It's avoiding the question.

It's to John's generation of suffering Christians - just as Galatians was once to a church in Galatia and Romans to Christians in Rome. But we can still learn a thing or two from those letters, can't we?
 
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eclipsenow

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From Revelation 6 to 22, the answer is yes.
The believers of John's day are not left out as you are insinuating.

They are totally left out.
I'm not insinuating anything.
It's just a fact.

I'm convinced John tells us how to read his book 4 times in the first chapter - and it's about and to his generation of Christians - and from there for all Christians moving forward through history.

1. "to show his servants what must soon take place" (Verse 1)
This is different to the normal 'Jesus is coming back soon' and 'Today is the day of salvation' call. This is specific. Soon TAKE PLACE. Particular things are about to happen, and John wants to write about them.

2. "blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" (Verse 3)
That is, he wants them to meditate on it and obey it. How do you obey something written about and to people thousands of years later? Forget that - how do you even understand it? Imagine getting this message?
"On Mars most red in the year 4000 AD, the Zorg will Zazzle the Marines in Valles Marineris - and the smoke will rise to the heavens." Now obey this! See, if the command is not to you or about you - you cannot obey it. Period. There's nothing to take to heart, nothing to understand about you and your suffering. So how on earth do you obey this? You can barely even comprehend it - and even if you could - it's not to your and your situation or even about you. John's generation couldn't obey it. Not only that, what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years - it's not about or to them - so how do they benefit? If anything makes me reject futurist readings of Revelation it is that it would render the majority of Revelation as utterly useless to Christians across the last 2000 years - and do nothing except confuse us and make us argue. That's simply NOT in the mission statement of Scripture as we read it in 2 Timothy 3:16-17.
3. "because the time is near." (Verse 3)
How many times does John have to say it in the one chapter for futurists to understand? I know it's exciting if Revelation is about us and our times. But surely there's a bit of narcissism in wanting it to be all about us? Surely there's a bit of a Messiah-complex we have as well, where WE want to be the ones that decode it FOR REAL THIS TIME (unlike the 10,000 other failed predictions and timelines out there). I think many of us want to be like Sarah Connor from the Terminator movies - full of certainty and dreadful purpose for the next few years. Fun movies - but give me a break! We are meant to be driven by Jesus' mission for the world - not endless arguing over our own navel gazing about what Revelation 'means to us'.
4. "I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." ( ESV - Verse 9)
John is already in the tribulation. It's already started - and John wants them to understand what to do ('endure with patient endurance' - a catchphrase through out the book - HINT HINT!) and what it means that God's chosen children should suffer like this. He wants them to obey it for real - because he's right there with them.

The futurist objects: "But the world has NEVER seen the stuff described in Revelation!" But it has. They're just not reading the symbols correctly. Hebrew number symbolism starts right back in the Old Testament and includes such devices as a disaster hitting one third of something (the world, the trees, the people). It means that it took a great number, but in God's grace more were left untouched than were destroyed. That's all. Like *most* Jewish number symbolism, it's not literal or numeric. It's theological - it means something else. Apocalyptic literature was common 200BC to 200AD - and has many other recognisable Jewish number and animal and other symbols. It is clearly a letter of encouragement John wrote to God's people about to suffer under Roman persecution. But not only that, there are temptations to despair when nature is also in chaos, natural disasters happen, persecution from tyrants break out and yet the wealth and security of the State call you to trust in Rome / Babylon / America / Australia / North Korea.
The futurist objects: "But how can we obey it if it's not about us?" Yet they don't object like this about any gospel or epistle. Corinthians was written to a specific church in a specific place with particular issues. We learn how to do the hermeneutics, and learn what it meant to the first century Christians in Corinth and what the underlying principles are that apply today. We are meant to do the same for Revelation. In fact, persecuted Christians that have read it this way have been greatly encouraged for 2000 years. Indeed, I've heard how Christians suffering Muslim persecution LAUGH AT at the idea John would turn around to his generation and say "You think you've got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" That's just absurd - and again goes against 2 Timothy 3:16-17's principle of giving the church back then everything they need.
The futurist objects: "But doesn't it become boring if it isn't about us?"
Revelation has been an encouragement for suffering Christians for the last 2000 years and when understood correctly, the imagery is a powerful warning against offending our God. It's terrifying! It also shouldn't surprise us that we're in a time of Covid 19 and natural disasters and climate change.
The futurist objects: "But I WANT to know what's going to happen!"
Too bad. God doesn't tell us. That's what all those parables were about after Matthew 24 - the thief in the night, the Days of Noah, the master returning to the bad servant, the maidens tending to their lamps, the parable of the talents - all tell us to be busy with God's work, trusting in Jesus, not slackening off and losing our faith precisely because we DO NOT know and ARE NOT given any warning as to when Jesus will return.

Revelation is not a timetable of events. It's not a linear story. It's not a forward march. It's a waltz - going around and around various themes. One chapter will cover the suffering brought on by war, then finish with images reminding us to stay true to Jesus because he's coming back! This is Judgement Day in Chapter 6. And just to highlight how we cannot read it as a linear timeline, Judgement Day happens again in Chapters 19 and 20! Revelation shows the one magnificent event from 3 different camera angles, focussing on different theological emphasis. It's not a timeline - and never was meant to be. Indeed, how does one even obey a timetable? What is there in it to 'take to heart'? No wonder futurist's get themselves in a knot and can't agree on almost a single thing!
Reading it properly will free modern Christians from the endless fretting over which credit card or computer chip might be the 'mark of the beast'. It will stop them being distracted by endless speculation over geopolitical matters and how they fit into a 'Revelation timetable'. Instead they'll find that as their timetables for the 'Last Days' get smaller, the gospel itself gets bigger and bolder. They'll live for Christ's mission more, and their own navel-gazing less. They'll be less prone to every wind of the latest tinfoil hat conspiracy theory. They'll be more realistic about life, wiser in their planning, and encouraging to all.

To understand further, I recommend these 2 videos - 4 million views and rising.



To go deeper try Dr Paul Barnett - Phd in Ancient History, theologian and retired Sydney Anglican Bishop.
"Apocalypse Now and Then".
https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
 
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Douggg

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They are totally left out.
I'm not insinuating anything.
It's just a fact.
No, they are not. They will be returning with Jesus as the bride of Christ in Revelation 19. Having taken part in the resurrection/rapture near at hand.
 
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eclipsenow

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No, they are not. They will be returning with Jesus as the bride of Christ in Revelation 19. Having taken part in the resurrection/rapture near at hand.
?
I don't think you understand the discussion we are having here. I have not made a future pronouncement of the fate of that generation - but the fact that John's generation are left at a complete loss of what to make of Revelation if it was intended to be some far future timeline of completely irrelevant events unknowable to them in any way, shape or form. The EU? What's that? Nuclear bombs? What's that? AND WHO ON EARTH CARES when a Roman guard has just shoved a spear into your child in front of your eyes?
 
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Marilyn C

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No - I want us to read it properly so that we can learn what we are meant to get out of it.

Imagine if I just randomly started asserting that the epistle to the Corinthians or Galatians or Romans wasn't to them - but "Is relevant to believers through out the centuries for it involves the unveiling of the Head of the Body, the Heir of the world, the Mediator of the New Covenant, and the Judge & Creator of all things new."

It's avoiding the question.

It's to John's generation of suffering Christians - just as Galatians was once to a church in Galatia and Romans to Christians in Rome. But we can still learn a thing or two from those letters, can't we?

Good that you/we desire the truth. As to Corinthians, etc it is clearly presented as Christ the head of the Body, which we know is relevant to all believers from Christ`s ascension to drawing us from the earth to be with Him in glory. relevant in all those centuries.

God`s word is for all of us to read and learn of Christ and His purposes, but is not all about us. You seem to be trying to get the climactic part of scripture to just be for one part of the Body of Christ.

It, revelation is relevant to ALL the Body of Christ whatever age they are in from His ascension to His bringing all rulership under His rulership.

The focus needs to be on the Lord and who He is, and His purposes. And what ever time slot we are in then it is a `blessings` to us to learn more of Him & not US.
 
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eclipsenow

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says you.
Says John from Chapter 1 of Revelation - the 4 verses I quote in this post, the Bible Project (guy with a Phd in Jewish Symbolism), Dr Paul Barnett (with multiple degrees in theology and ancient history and runs tours of the Middle East), many thousands of other Phd's and theologians - and common sense.
MARK OF THE BEAST - REVELATION 13-14; 17; 18

But hey, if you want to interpret and OBEY this prophecy - go for it!

"When the SNURGS hatch from their filthy cyberlairs, they will WALLOMP the FLVRRZZZZZZ in the MRRS, and the WALLOMP will be something to behold. Run!"

Now obey this!
(This is what you just turned Revelations into for the first century Christians.)
 
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LoveGodsWord

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"his name", not the office he holds.There have been a multitude of men in the office of pope. And pope was not the name of any of them.
The name identifies the beast as it is the Beasts name given to a man. It is the name of a man calculated to 666. Which pope it is does not matter as it is the title (name) given by the Beast to the man that is relevant as this connects the man to the beast and identified the beast as it is the beast name (title) of the man.
" The office of President of the United States, President is a title, not a name.

Donald Trump is a name.
Barack Obama is a name.
George Bush is a name.

Doug, in the Greek also the word ὄνομα; ónoma (G3686) does not need to be a literal name (i.e. Donald Trump) as the meaning in the Greek is much broader and includes also what someone is called by; title or authority. One of the earliest names given by the Roman Catholic Church to the Pope as head of the Church is VICARIUS FILII DEI (adding up to 666). It is engraved on the three tier crown that ALL Popes wears and means “Vicar of the Son of God” in Latin which is the main language used within the Roman Catholic Church.
The beast is the eighth king in Revelation 17:10.
I cannot see that according to the scriptures Doug. A beast in bible prophecy represents a kingdom (Daniel 7:23). How do you get the eighth king out of Revelation 13? You cannot unless you read that into the scriptures. As far as Revelation 13 is concerned and its application of Revelation 13:17-18 being a reference to the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church (Beast) there is also much more in this chapter that supports this interpretation.

Take Care.
 
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eclipsenow

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Good that you/we desire the truth. As to Corinthians, etc it is clearly presented as Christ the head of the Body, which we know is relevant to all believers from Christ`s ascension to drawing us from the earth to be with Him in glory. relevant in all those centuries.

God`s word is for all of us to read and learn of Christ and His purposes, but is not all about us. You seem to be trying to get the climactic part of scripture to just be for one part of the Body of Christ.

It, revelation is relevant to ALL the Body of Christ whatever age they are in from His ascension to His bringing all rulership under His rulership.

The focus needs to be on the Lord and who He is, and His purposes. And what ever time slot we are in then it is a `blessings` to us to learn more of Him & not US.
I agree - which is why I am Amil, and why John wrote his message to his generation - so that they - and the rest of us - could comprehend the message, be encouraged by it, and learn from it.
 
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Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
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But hey, if you want to interpret and OBEY this prophecy - go for it!

"When the SNURGS hatch from their filthy cyberlairs, they will WALLOMP the FLVRRZZZZZZ in the MRRS, and the WALLOMP will be something to behold. Run!"

Now obey this!
More abstract nowhere arguments that Amil specializes in.
 
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